Submission and obedience.

Junia

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Our small fellowship does not condone verbal or physical violence - from either party. Women can be vicious with their tongues. Physical violence is intolerable. We do not recommend that women stay with an abusive husband. Some people equate submission with domination. It's a false understanding.

I understand, but my understanding comes from being a victim of DV and the church forbidding divorce because of it. also a christian told me today we have to suffer in life and that means suffering abuse.
 
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Junia

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We never encourage a woman to stay in an abusive relationship. That's not to say that divorce is the only answer. Men abuse for a reason. Christ came to set people free. Men can be set free of the attitudes that lead them to abuse, as women can be set free from the bitterness and resentment that a bad experience can produce (as Joyce Meyer so eloquently demonstrates).

thing is, it isn't jsut bitterness and resentment. its complex PTSD and the othe rpsychiatric issues associated with it, these need healing, often in form of psychiatric help. i wish more churches would see psychotherapy not as a bad new age thing, but something that can go alongside christianity.
 
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I understand, but my understanding comes from being a victim of DV and the church forbidding divorce because of it. also a christian told me today we have to suffer in life and that means suffering abuse.
I wonder how well those Job's comforter types would handle the kind of abuse they expect women to tolerate. The family should be a refuge from strife, not the centre of it. What part of
"Husbands, love your wives" is so hard to figure out? An abusive man needs to be counselled and, if necessary, disciplined.
 
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Junia

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amen. this is why i believe it is of God that He is using me to help others. i ahve been told "But domestic violence shelters are of this world system" or "christians dont need those" "why are you working in a secualr organisation?" but i dont see it that way. Jesus needs us both in the church and in the world. and the earth is the Lord's. He has dominion over it
 
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thing is, it isn't jsut bitterness and resentment. its complex PTSD and the othe rpsychiatric issues associated with it, these need healing, often in form of psychiatric help. i wish more churches would see psychotherapy not as a bad new age thing, but something that can go alongside christianity.
The underlying cause of the majority of issues is spiritual. Deal with that and you resolve most issues. In rare cases, there is a physical disorder. Even that is often triggered by a spiritual problem. I don't recall Lord Jesus sending people off to a psychologist. He came to set the captives free. He told us to do the same. We recently counselled a woman abused as a child by her preacher father. It was destroying her marriage. In a few hours, she was set free. Lord Jesus set her free, not me.
 
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lovelife34

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The following was related by a certain elderly monk:

A Greek-American doctor had once visited me. He was Orthodox, but didn’t have much to do with religion… He didn’t even keep the fast days…nor did he go to Church very often. He recently had an experience, and wanted to discuss it with someone so he came to me. One evening, while he was praying in his apartment, the “heavens opened up”. He was flooded by light, and the ceiling disappeared, as did the other forty floors above his apartment. He remained in that flood of light for a very long time – he couldn’t even tell for how long!
I stood amazed! Because I could feel and understand that this incident was “from God”. It was real… He had actually seen the “uncreated light.”

What had he done in his lifetime? How did he live, to deserve such divine things?

He was married; he had a wife and children. His wife had said to him: “I’m sick and tired of housework; I want to be able to go out for a walk every now and then.” Well, she wasn’t exactly employed, so she started to go out with her girlfriends and pressured him into accompanying her every night on her outings. After a while, she said: “I want to be able to go out with my girlfriends, alone.” He accepted this, for his children’s sake. Later, she “wanted to go on vacation by herself….”. What could he do? He gave her money and the car.

She then asked him to rent out an apartment, so that she could live on her own; she would also invite her friends over. He would speak to her, he would counsel her, ‘how do our children feel about all this?’. She was adamant. In the end, she extracted a large sum of money from him and deserted him. She felt too confined!

A few years later, he learnt that she had ended up a prostitute in the clubs of Piraeus! He was distraught! He lamented over her fate! He thought of looking for her. But what would he tell her? He knelt down to pray: “My God…help me, tell me what to say… what to do… to save this soul…” You see, he was in pain for her. He wanted “that soul to be saved”. No male ego, no vindictiveness, no contempt… he truly hurt inside, seeing her wretched state. He ached for her salvation…

That was the moment when God opened up the heavens… and flooded him with His light.
LOL, thanks for the story but I recall saying a real-life scenario that happened to you......
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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This is one concept that I don't think I'll ever understand. xD Every Tom, Dick, and Harry speak of this 'submission.' But there are no practical examples given. I feel like a lot of men these days want to replace Jesus with themselves. Can anyone here give me a real-life example of 'submission?' So I can see what you guys are talking about? I mean, give me a real-life scenario that happened to you, please.

Sure, every way in which Christ leads His church. The husband doesn't replace Christ, but he represents Christ and therefore has the authority of Christ without direct contradiction to Him (note, the contradiction has to be direct, not merely something Christ wouldn't do to the same degree, 1 Peter 3:1-6).

From husband to wife:
Is Christ Lord? Then I am Lord.
Is Christ a servant? Then I am a servant.
Does He wash in the water of the word? Then I will wash her in it.
Does Christ discipline, and how? Then I discipline, and in like manner.

What does Christ reveal? What does He hide? How does He talk? When does He talk this way? Etc. etc. If I am to represent Christ, then Christ I will represent, in the things the woman loves, and the things the woman hates.

Imitate Christ in all things, directing all glory back to Him and repenting of failures to do so. And above all, read Him, not the woman's reactions, to determine if you are doing it right.
 
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lovelife34

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Sure, every way in which Christ leads His church. The husband doesn't replace Christ, but he represents Christ and therefore has the authority of Christ without direct contradiction to Him (note, the contradiction has to be direct, not merely something Christ wouldn't do to the same degree, 1 Peter 3:1-6).

From husband to wife:
Is Christ Lord? Then I am Lord.
Is Christ a servant? Then I am a servant.
Does He wash in the water of the word? Then I will wash her in it.
Does Christ discipline, and how? Then I discipline, and in like manner.

What does Christ reveal? What does He hide? How does He talk? When does He talk this way? Etc. etc. If I am to represent Christ, then Christ I will represent, in the things the woman loves, and the things the woman hates.

Imitate Christ in all things, directing all glory back to Him and repenting of failures to do so. And above all, read Him, not the woman's reactions, to determine if you are doing it right.
Hmmm, so I get the concept in general, but what I meant is, I want a real-life example. OK, let's say the wife and husband disagree on something. What happens?

And in regards to discipline... I need practical examples...how do you discipline your wife? Maybe I'm not articulating myself correctly, but I see this word 'submission' all the time, but no one ever talks about what it looks like in a real-life setting...like in 2020, between a husband and wife, what does submission look like in terms of actions?
 
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Junia

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The underlying cause of the majority of issues is spiritual. Deal with that and you resolve most issues. In rare cases, there is a physical disorder. Even that is often triggered by a spiritual problem. I don't recall Lord Jesus sending people off to a psychologist. He came to set the captives free. He told us to do the same. We recently counselled a woman abused as a child by her preacher father. It was destroying her marriage. In a few hours, she was set free. Lord Jesus set her free, not me.

my dad was also a minister. he abused me severely. but i think God is happy to use any means of healing. i am glad the woman you knew was set free so quickly but it hasnt happened with me . it is ok,. i am having deliverance, psychotherapy, and 12 step groups (al anon) God is in all of them, they are all christian based.

but we can agree to disagree. these are not fundamental issues.
 
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Junia

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Sure, every way in which Christ leads His church. The husband doesn't replace Christ, but he represents Christ and therefore has the authority of Christ without direct contradiction to Him (note, the contradiction has to be direct, not merely something Christ wouldn't do to the same degree, 1 Peter 3:1-6).

From husband to wife:
Is Christ Lord? Then I am Lord.
Is Christ a servant? Then I am a servant.
Does He wash in the water of the word? Then I will wash her in it.
Does Christ discipline, and how? Then I discipline, and in like manner.

What does Christ reveal? What does He hide? How does He talk? When does He talk this way? Etc. etc. If I am to represent Christ, then Christ I will represent, in the things the woman loves, and the things the woman hates.

Imitate Christ in all things, directing all glory back to Him and repenting of failures to do so. And above all, read Him, not the woman's reactions, to determine if you are doing it right.

i think it i ssymbolic. the bible is a symbolic book. it is fascinating.
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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Hmmm, so I get the concept in general, but what I meant is, I want a real-life example. OK, let's say the wife and husband disagree on something. What happens?

And in regards to discipline... I need practical examples...how do you discipline your wife? Maybe I'm not articulating myself correctly, but I see this word 'submission' all the time, but no one ever talks about what it looks like in a real-life setting...like in 2020, between a husband and wife, what does submission look like in terms of actions?

Each situation will be different, but generally, if there is a disagreement between the husband and wife, he will compassionately consider her reasons for disagreeing. If ultimately he does not agree with her reasons, then he makes the final decision and answers to the Lord, good or bad, and she puts her hope in God by submitting to that (1 Peter 3:1-6). God is so wise He can guide the wife through her husband's wisdom and mistakes. This is why the Bible says they put their hope in God by submitting to him, even if he doesn't obey the word.

In terms of discipline, again it depends on the situation obviously. This can include many relational withdrawals (which God is famous for doing, and no surprise comes naturally to many men as well by design), such as less interaction, cancelling dates, not going out of his way to do extra nice things or buying gifts, etc. Taking an example from Christ in Revelation 2:5, if the husband has entrusted the wife with something and she manages it poorly, withdrawing her stewardship over it until she repents.
 
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lovelife34

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Each situation will be different, but generally, if there is a disagreement between the husband and wife, he will compassionately consider her reasons for disagreeing. If ultimately he does not agree with her reasons, then he makes the final decision and answers to the Lord, good or bad, and she puts her hope in God by submitting to that (1 Peter 3:1-6). God is so wise He can guide the wife through her husband's wisdom and mistakes. This is why the Bible says they put their hope in God by submitting to him, even if he doesn't obey the word.

In terms of discipline, again it depends on the situation obviously. This can include many relational withdrawals (which God is famous for doing, and no surprise comes naturally to many men as well by design), such as less interaction, cancelling dates, not going out of his way to do extra nice things or buying gifts, etc. Taking an example from Christ in Revelation 2:5, if the husband has entrusted the wife with something and she manages it poorly, withdrawing her stewardship over it until she repents.
Hmmm, so if that's the case, why do men get married? Isn't it more practical to just live alone and make their decisions, if they are ultimately not going to take their wives' opinions into consideration?

Hmmm, less interaction, cancelling dates, not going out of his way to do nice things...sounds like coercion and manipulation. I didn't know that was biblical. So why not just communicate verbally with the wife? I'm not understanding. xD So relational withdrawal...I thought men were supposed to love their wives sacrificially? This seems like manipulation, not love. xD Speaking of what comes naturally to men....70% of narcissists are men.... I don't think that's a coincidence. xD

But even so, I think that if a man engages in this 'relational withdrawal,' it only makes logical sense that the wife will engage in it as well... but I don't believe in it, fundamentally...it seems quite counterintuitive. If you want someone to do something, wouldn't you rather be nice to them, and not alienate them? I didn't realize this was a 'thing.' It seems like the hypothetical wife and husband are just playing games, it doesn't seem like a union or sacred in any way.
Withdrawing stewardship makes sense, whether the wife or the husband mismanages something. If the husband is financially impulsive, it doesn't make sense to give him stewardship over that just because he is a man.....
 
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Junia

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Hmmm, so if that's the case, why do men get married? Isn't it more practical to just live alone and make their decisions, if they are ultimately not going to take their wives' opinions into consideration?

Hmmm, less interaction, cancelling dates, not going out of his way to do nice things...sounds like coercion and manipulation. I didn't know that was biblical. So why not just communicate verbally with the wife? I'm not understanding. xD So relational withdrawal...I thought men were supposed to love their wives sacrificially? This seems like manipulation, not love. xD Speaking of what comes naturally to men....70% of narcissists are men.... I don't think that's a coincidence. xD

But even so, I think that if a man engages in this 'relational withdrawal,' it only makes logical sense that the wife will engage in it as well... but I don't believe in it, fundamentally...it seems quite counterintuitive. If you want someone to do something, wouldn't you rather be nice to them, and not alienate them? I didn't realize this was a 'thing.' It seems like the hypothetical wife and husband are just playing games, it doesn't seem like a union or sacred in any way.
Withdrawing stewardship makes sense, whether the wife or the husband mismanages something. If the husband is financially impulsive, it doesn't make sense to give him stewardship over that just because he is a man.....

whoever is best at finances hsould manage the bank account. or they coulkd have separate bank accounts and just share with the other spouse if the other spouse is in need. also depends who earns more, the husband or the wife?
 
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lovelife34

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whoever is best at finances hsould manage the bank account. or they coulkd have separate bank accounts and just share with the other spouse if the other spouse is in need. also depends who earns more, the husband or the wife?
Yeah, I agree. I don't believe in a single joint bank account, I believe in separate accounts. I've seen way too many "Christian' male blogs that advocate for financial abuse. "If your wife doesn't behave the way you want her to, take her name off the credit card...." :o I just think it depends on who is more knowledgeable. I know a Christian couple and the wife focuses on generating income, while the husband also generates income, but he focuses on investing/real estate.
 
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com7fy8

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So my mother should maybe have been more submissive to my fatehr and he would not have hurt her as much? maybe.
1 Peter 3:1-4, I would say, does not guarantee what the results will be. It says to be a good example, in order that someone "might" be won by the good example of the wives.

But the Bible does say,

"A soft answer turns away wrath" (in Proverbs 15:1).

So, God's way of submissiveness can help. But Jesus indeed was perfectly submissive to God and He was nailed to the cross.

If there is abuse, I understand that the abused person might be doing nothing to help to cause it. But there can be ways to help abuse to happen, I think.

One obvious one is marrying someone who our Father does not have a person marry, and this can include being pronounced by someone who can't tell the difference.

Also, arguing can help set a person off, though the abuse is the abuser's own fault. We can help to tempt people do give in to how they can do what is bad.

And there are ones who had an abusive parent, and they do not know how to relate with nonabusive people; so they marry someone like the abusive parent, then help the abuse to happen by staying in and even covering up for the situation. So, being submissive in such a case might not be how God means to be submissive. And if your mother was like that . . . I say "if" . . . then being more submissive in the way that helped the abuse would not be good.

I have been abused in different ways, but I was a different kind of a rascal. In each case, I confronted it and got out of the situation. It was not in marriage. And I was an aggressive person, myself; so when ones did stuff to me, I took action. I would confront, then maneuver to get away, then negotiate with different people in order to maintain the separation and not stir up trouble with anyone. I would be aggressive to get away, then talk like a wimp where I knew no one could control me to get back. I could talk like I was clueless about what the abuser was trying to do with me . . . but while I stayed away.

So, I was not a victim type sinner, but an aggressive person and maybe I was fairly clever.

One woman I visited pounded the back of my neck, right near her mother. I confronted that. She didn't seem worried that pounding my neck could cripple me; I was thinking maybe I was in a very dangerous situation > maybe she was trying to cripple me so they could capture me. So, I did not get crazy, but simply maneuvered closer and closer to getting in my car and getting out of there; I did not talk at all about never coming back, because I knew that could provoke them to make more of an effort to disable me if they really were capable of that. But later I did phone her, but for some reason it never was time for me to go back there. I would say, we need to be good, we need to make sure we are being good with each other; and talking on the phone is a perfectly fine way to make sure we are good with each other. Maybe I said how we were doing so better, by talking on the phone; and she had told me to be holy; so what we were doing had to be good.

Yeah, I'm a guy. Another one didn't make sure I knew what she was into . . . with her female roommate. But I caught on and got away, to keep it simple, after chasing her down after she had been with another one (she had told me she was home). Then I visited her mother's place during a Christmas party. I opened a beer and she came up to me talking with her eyes in my face, but I saw her unpinch her fingers over the mouth of the bottle. So, may be she put something in it. I knew this could be a very dangerous situation. So, I pretended I had drunk so much beer that I needed to pee > I had been tipping the bottle but blocking it from pouring into my mouth. In the bathroom, I dumped the beer, rinsed the bottle, then filled it with water and came out guzzling away. And I said, well it takes a while to drive home; so I need to leave early. She followed me to my car, looking bewildered, reached to touch my wrist, but seemed to take time to check my pulse (she was an RN) . . . may be to see if some drug had effected my pulse? And then she looked quite perplexed. I said something like, things don't go the way we think, sometimes. And I left.

So . . . women can do stuff, too . . . I would say.

And their result can be they will never find out how to love.

I suspect I have seen how a number of women can be dominating and controlling. I have given a few the slip, leaving their churches. But now I'm staying . . . and seeing what becomes of ones who abuse me and/or abuse themselves. They pay too dear a price, not discovering how to love >

"submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

There are ones not capable of any kind of submission. They can scream how they won't be the slave of some man . . . right while they are slaves of their own un-subject, self-abusing spirit which keeps them from enjoying Jesus Christ's "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

It is tempting to look down on them, after they have treated me like a peon.

But maybe I can do with them what 1 Peter 3:1-4 says for wives to do with men :) while enjoying sharing with the people who have hope for ones who are ruined from love. We have people who don't give up on anyone . . . a good example for me.
 
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Junia

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1 Peter 3:1-4, I would say, does not guarantee what the results will be. It says to be a good example, in order that someone "might" be won by the good example of the wives.

But the Bible does say,

"A soft answer turns away wrath" (in Proverbs 15:1).

So, God's way of submissiveness can help. But Jesus indeed was perfectly submissive to God and He was nailed to the cross.

If there is abuse, I understand that the abused person might be doing nothing to help to cause it. But there can be ways to help abuse to happen, I think.

One obvious one is marrying someone who our Father does not have a person marry, and this can include being pronounced by someone who can't tell the difference.

Also, arguing can help set a person off, though the abuse is the abuser's own fault. We can help to tempt people do give in to how they can do what is bad.

And there are ones who had an abusive parent, and they do not know how to relate with nonabusive people; so they marry one, then help the abuse to happen by staying in and even covering up for the situation. So, being submissive in such a case might not be how God means to be submissive. And if your mother was like that . . . I say "if" . . . then being more submissive in the way that helped the abuse would not be good.

I have been abused in different ways, but I was a different kind of a rascal. In each case, I confronted it and got out of the situation. It was not in marriage. And I was an aggressive person, myself; so when ones did stuff to me, I took action. I would confront, then maneuver to get away, then negotiate with different people in order to maintain the separation and not stir up trouble with anyone. I would be aggressive to get away, then talk like a wimp where I knew no one could control me to get back.

So, I was not a victim type sinner, but an aggressive person and maybe I was fairly clever.

One woman I visited pounded the back of my neck, right in front of her mother. I confronted that. She didn't seem worried that pounding my neck could cripple me; I was thinking maybe I was in a very dangerous situation > maybe she was trying to cripple me so they could capture me. So, I did not get crazy, but simply maneuvered closer and closer to getting in my car and getting out of there; I did not talk at all about never coming back, because I knew that could provoke her to make more of an effort to disable me if she really was capable of that. But later I did phone her, but for some reason it never was time for me to go back there. I would say, we need to be good, we need to make sure we are being good with each other; and talking on the phone is a perfectly fine way to make sure we are good with each other. Maybe I said how we were doing so better, by talking on the phone; and she had told me to be holy; so what we were doing had to be so good.

Yeah, I'm a guy. Another one didn't make sure I knew what she was into . . . with her female roommate. But I caught on and got away, to keep it simple, after chasing her down after she had been with another one. She had told me she was home. Then I visited her mother's place during a Christmas party. I opened a beer and she came up to me with her eyes in my face, but I saw her unpinch her fingers over the mouth of the bottle. So, may be she put something in it. I knew this could be a very dangerous situation. So, I pretended I had drunk so much beer that I needed to pee > I had been tipping the bottle but blocking it from pouring into my mouth. In the bathroom, I dumped the beer, rinsed the bottle, then filled it with water and came out guzzling away. And I said, well it takes a while to drive home; so I need to leave early. She followed me to my care, looking bewildered, reached to touch my wrist, but seemed to take time to check my pulse . . . may be to see if some drug had effected my pulse. And then she looked quite perplexed. I said something like, things don't go the way we think, sometimes. And I left.

So . . . women can do stuff, too . . . I would say.

And their result can be they will never find out how to love.

I suspect I have seen how a number of women can be dominating and controlling. I have given a few the slip, leaving their churches. But now I'm staying . . . and seeing what becomes of ones who abuse me and/or abuse themselves. They pay too dear a price, not being able to discover how to love >

"submitting to one another in the fear of God." (Ephesians 5:21)

There are ones not capable of any kind of submission. They can scream how they won't be the slave of some man . . . right while they are slaves of their own un-subject, self-abusing spirit which keeps them from enjoying Jesus Christ's "rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30)

It is tempting to look down on them, after they have treated me like a peon.

But maybe I can do with them what 1 Peter 3:1-4 says for wives to do with men :) while enjoying sharing with the people who have hope for ones who are ruined from love. We have people who don't give up on anyone . . . a good example for me.


well,i dont want to marry because i dont want anyone harming me like my dad did, and the other men who used me like a harlot at different sstages of my childhood and teen years but i t is not a salovation issue. i will have Jesus' rest because i am His child,. heaven waits for me
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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Hmmm, so if that's the case, why do men get married? Isn't it more practical to just live alone and make their decisions, if they are ultimately not going to take their wives' opinions into consideration?

Hmmm, less interaction, cancelling dates, not going out of his way to do nice things...sounds like coercion and manipulation. I didn't know that was biblical. So why not just communicate verbally with the wife? I'm not understanding. xD So relational withdrawal...I thought men were supposed to love their wives sacrificially? This seems like manipulation, not love. xD Speaking of what comes naturally to men....70% of narcissists are men.... I don't think that's a coincidence. xD

But even so, I think that if a man engages in this 'relational withdrawal,' it only makes logical sense that the wife will engage in it as well... but I don't believe in it, fundamentally...it seems quite counterintuitive. If you want someone to do something, wouldn't you rather be nice to them, and not alienate them? I didn't realize this was a 'thing.' It seems like the hypothetical wife and husband are just playing games, it doesn't seem like a union or sacred in any way.
Withdrawing stewardship makes sense, whether the wife or the husband mismanages something. If the husband is financially impulsive, it doesn't make sense to give him stewardship over that just because he is a man.....

And this is why Scripture said people would no longer endure sound doctrine and walk after their lusts, including despising authority (2 Timothy 4:3, 2 Timothy 3:3). This is why the Scripture says the holy women of the past put their hope in God by submitting to their husbands, because holiness is separate from the world and complies with God's mandate, walking by faith and not by sight (1 Peter 3:1-6, 2 Corinthians 5:7). Women who submit to God by submitting to their husbands has always been a rare jewel, and this day is no different. The only difference is the present time makes provision to women's flesh, and for that they feel blessed but in substance are not, because they walk after the tradition and course of this world, rather than after Christ (Colossians 2:8).

If you refuse to acknowledge God's design as elaborated in the Bible you will never understand, because you're thinking of the genders as an art project of God demonstrating creativity, rather than what the Bible says that the husband and wife represent Christ and the church to each other and the world. It is a story that, if history is any indicator (including the events of Isaiah 3) will not be remedied until it swallows up the nations' future again (Isaiah 3:12).

Willing ignorance of God's explicit purpose in creation is why people subject themselves to the cultural understanding of man and woman, and refuse to submit to the biblical doctrine of symbology and ontology of the genders. If this wasn't suppressed, then you would understand how significant of a difference it makes to be a man or woman in God's paradigm.

Everything you said comes down to pop psychology and not Scripture. You can use the words "narcissist", "controlling", "manipulative" all you like, but they are not biblical attributions, they are secular and thus insignificant. From the biblical perspective, the unsubmissive woman is the narcissist because she thinks she is above the mind of Christ (Philippians 2:5-8). The unsubmissive woman is controlling of things God has not given her control of (Ephesians 5:22-33, 1 Peter 3:1-6) and manipulative of God's words. God's word overcomes the world and every rebel on it (Isaiah 2).

"And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." (1 John 2:17)
 
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