Virtual v Physical, doing church in a Pandemic

[mindlight]

Our church had a discussion meeting last week about the Pandemic. One man said he was giving communion to his family blessing the bread and the wine. Personally I believe in the apostolic succession and believe that an ordained minister from a church in the apostolic line of succession should do the blessing and lead such a service. But saying this provoked a more general discussion over what required physical presence to be real and what could be done remotely. Obviously with Covid-19 stalking the pews many believers around the world are forced to worship at home. But what does that mean when it comes to sacraments and sharing and indeed doing church.

Before this degenerates into a Catholic - Protestant denominational discussion I would like to point out that during the Black Death pope Clement VI was so worried about the inability of priests to give last rites without dying of the plague he actually gave a general absolution for anyone who died of plague. So a sort of remote absolution?

So my questions to all groups of Christians is this. Does plague give special dispensation for a virtual sharing of the sacraments as opposed to the physical sharing of them. Do we have take the physical bread and wine to be in communion with Christ. Can we baptise online. Can we be married online in the eyes of God.

What does it mean to do church in the days of Pandemics. What things will just have to wait for us to be physically back together and what things can be done online

 

[bèlla]

My Shabbat celebrations included bread (challah) and wine. It wasn't necessary to have someone presiding over them. I blessed them and we partook. That's an integral part of Judaism I didn't set aside when I returned to faith. There's a rich tradition of home practices for its followers. Including holidays. Due to my exposure I never developed the notion of church versus home. I viewed both as acts of service or worship.

You've raised important questions. I think the answers are individual. We have to come to a place of peace on the topic within ourselves. Unless you follow a tradition which makes the decision on your behalf. I don't.

It will be a long while before I attend a gathering. I'm comfortable with that position.

~Bella

 

[1213]

...Do we have take the physical bread and wine to be in communion with Christ.....

If one is a disciple of Jesus, he can take bread and wine in memory of Jesus as he taught, no priests are necessary.

Then he took a loaf of bread, gave thanks, broke it in pieces, and handed it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Keep on doing this in memory of me.” He did the same with the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, poured out for you.
Luke 22:19-20

Actually, if we read what Jesus said, it is questionable to even be a priest, because:

For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments, and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men. But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Mat. 23:4-12

 

[mindlight]

If one is a disciple of Jesus, he can take bread and wine in memory of Jesus as he taught, no priests are necessary.

Then he took a loaf of bread, gave thanks, broke it in pieces, and handed it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Keep on doing this in memory of me.” He did the same with the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, poured out for you.
Luke 22:19-20

Actually, if we read what Jesus said, it is questionable to even be a priest, because:

For they bind heavy burdens that are grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not lift a finger to help them. But all their works they do to be seen by men. They make their phylacteries broad, enlarge the fringes of their garments, and love the place of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues, the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi, Rabbi' by men. But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers. Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. But he who is greatest among you will be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Mat. 23:4-12

So in your view anyone can bless the bread and wine which are just empty symbols, rather than providing any direct connection to the presence of Christ. Your view of sacraments and priesthood would mean that it would not be necessary to gather with other Christians at all, with or without Pandemic.

I find your view quite individualistic and also lacking any appreciation of apostolic succession, the significance of church ordination and the communal meaning of the sacraments. The church as a whole is Christs body and each part makes up that whole.

 

[1213]

So in your view anyone can bless the bread and wine which are just empty symbols, rather than providing any direct connection to the presence of Christ…

Firstly, I want to say, I think in this case, what Jesus says should be the highest authority. It is possible that I have misunderstood him, that is why I recommend to read the Bible, what Jesus said and follow him rather than me, he should be the King.

Secondly, I think, if the bread and wine are taken as Jesus told, in memory of him, there is connection to him. But I don’t think Jesus taught it is some magical performance.

…Your view of sacraments and priesthood would mean that it would not be necessary to gather with other Christians at all, with or without Pandemic…

Is it not the view Jesus taught? My goal is that my view is the same as the view of Jesus. I think the words of Jesus are necessary, but it is not crucial to gather with other Christians. But, I think it can be good and I think we should not stop doing that because of the “pandemic”.

 

[mindlight]

Firstly, I want to say, I think in this case, what Jesus says should be the highest authority. It is possible that I have misunderstood him, that is why I recommend to read the Bible, what Jesus said and follow him rather than me, he should be the King.

Secondly, I think, if the bread and wine are taken as Jesus told, in memory of him, there is connection to him. But I don’t think Jesus taught it is some magical performance.



Is it not the view Jesus taught? My goal is that my view is the same as the view of Jesus. I think the words of Jesus are necessary, but it is not crucial to gather with other Christians. But, I think it can be good and I think we should not stop doing that because of the “pandemic”.

So in essence you cannot think of any important Christian activity that isolation has prevented the church from doing in one form or another. Most Christians disagree with your reading of scripture on communion but that is not the focus of the OP

 

[Strong in Him]

Our church had a discussion meeting last week about the Pandemic. One man said he was giving communion to his family blessing the bread and the wine. Personally I believe in the apostolic succession and believe that an ordained minister from a church in the apostolic line of succession should do the blessing and lead such a service.

I don't.
It's the one thing that comforted me when my hopes of being ordained did not materialise. Nowhere in Scripture does Jesus say that a person needs to be ordained before we can "do this in remembrance of me". The early church broke bread daily, we are not told they needed anyone to "preside". And when Paul criticised the Corinthians over the Lord's Supper, it was not because they did not have anyone ordained present.

We are God's children, a holy priesthood and are indwelt by his Spirit. If we are IN Christ, remaining in the Vine we have fellowship, or communion, with God - why do we need a special person in a dog collar to bless bread and wine before we can "have communion" with him?

Obviously with Covid-19 stalking the pews many believers around the world are forced to worship at home. But what does that mean when it comes to sacraments and sharing and indeed doing church.

We ARE the church; all who are born again, have God's Spirit in them, are his children and have eternal life.
You wouldn't tell a 5 year old that they couldn't say "grace" and thank God for their food - nor that such a prayer was invalid because it was not offered by an ordained person. Why is it different for communion?

Before this degenerates into a Catholic - Protestant denominational discussion I would like to point out that during the Black Death pope Clement VI was so worried about the inability of priests to give last rites without dying of the plague he actually gave a general absolution for anyone who died of plague. So a sort of remote absolution?

God forgives us our sins. In Scripture we are told to confess to one another and forgive one another.

Do we have take the physical bread and wine to be in communion with Christ.

No.
We should be in communion with him every day, through reading his word, prayer and worship. Imo, we can, ourselves, eat bread, drink wine/juice, remember his death and all that he has done for us and he will be present, and close to, us.
Whether or not the church would call that communion - who knows; does it matter?

Can we baptise online. Can we be married online in the eyes of God.

Don't know about baptism being online - but lay people can already baptise.
In God's eyes, a couple are married when they sleep together - though I wouldn't recommend putting that online.

 

[Paidiske]

So my questions to all groups of Christians is this. Does plague give special dispensation for a virtual sharing of the sacraments as opposed to the physical sharing of them. Do we have take the physical bread and wine to be in communion with Christ. Can we baptise online. Can we be married online in the eyes of God.

I (and the church to which I belong) would say that communion cannot be done virtually. That is, in order to receive communion, we need to receive physical bread and wine. More than that, we need to gather to celebrate the sacrament. This is not something we can or should do alone, nor can the bread and wine be consecrated remotely, over the internet. (That is separate from the question of lay presidency; before we can ask who may preside, we need to establish what it is that they preside over).

I would not presume to tell someone who does differently that Christ is not present to them, but I would, at best, be uncomfortable that I cannot be sure that Christ promises to be present once we move away from what has been Church practice since the beginning.

There is a practice known as spiritual communion, in which a person meditates on and prays for the grace they would receive from communion, when they are unable to receive it, but that is not quite the same thing.

Similarly with baptism; there is no such thing as virtual baptism. It requires actual water. There have at times been arguments about whether or not a person can baptise him- or herself, but usually, baptism is administered by another; again, it is not something we can do alone.

As for marriage, well, there I think perhaps we are in a trickier place, because it is the free consent of both parties which makes a marriage. It is not clear to me that that free consent can't be given over a medium such as phone or internet.

 

[charsan]

So my questions to all groups of Christians is this. Does plague give special dispensation for a virtual sharing of the sacraments as opposed to the physical sharing of them.

No, unless the Priest delivers the sacraments himself where he has preformed the blessing

Do we have take the physical bread and wine to be in communion with Christ.

I would say a strong yes and a weak no. I know others will hate on me but I place such and have a strong devotion on the Eucharist that to partake of the elements is to have Christ in a way nothing else satisfies.

Can we baptize online.

No I would say

Can we be married online in the eyes of God.

Again I would say no

 

[hedrick]

Our church had a discussion meeting last week about the Pandemic. One man said he was giving communion to his family blessing the bread and the wine. Personally I believe in the apostolic succession and believe that an ordained minister from a church in the apostolic line of succession should do the blessing and lead such a service. But saying this provoked a more general discussion over what required physical presence to be real and what could be done remotely. Obviously with Covid-19 stalking the pews many believers around the world are forced to worship at home. But what does that mean when it comes to sacraments and sharing and indeed doing church.

Before this degenerates into a Catholic - Protestant denominational discussion I would like to point out that during the Black Death pope Clement VI was so worried about the inability of priests to give last rites without dying of the plague he actually gave a general absolution for anyone who died of plague. So a sort of remote absolution?

So my questions to all groups of Christians is this. Does plague give special dispensation for a virtual sharing of the sacraments as opposed to the physical sharing of them. Do we have take the physical bread and wine to be in communion with Christ. Can we baptise online. Can we be married online in the eyes of God.

What does it mean to do church in the days of Pandemics. What things will just have to wait for us to be physically back together and what things can be done online

First, by now pretty much everywhere in the US you can have small groups. In NJ the limit is 10. That could allow for baptism and marriage, though I'm not aware of any churches actually doing these. I'm fairly sure those have been allowed throughout the epidemic, though things are loosening up now. The main ongoing issue is communion.

Our church normally has communion the first Sunday of each month. In June we're going to have a drive-in service. That's safe enough to be allowed, but brings everyone close enough that physical elements can be distributed. (Again, I think that would have been legal all along, though it was clarified recently.)

Unlike Paidiske, my denomination allows virtual communion. In my congregation an online service feels real enough that I don't see a problem with it. We use Facebook Live. It has a couple of different ways to provide interaction during the services, which members use. We've gotten reasonable attendance. (My denomination also holds the record for the most remote communion, with Buzz Aldrin on the moon. He was not in contact with his congregation during it, so I'm not so sure it was legitimate.)

Our congregation has continued to be active. Our deacons are staying in contact with all members. We get reasonable attendance at online services. Our youth are meeting virtually. We're active in a food bank and other service projects. I really don't feel that we're closed.

I'm in the age group that's at risk. I'm not at all clear when I'll be willing to come to a traditional in-person service, though I plan to teach Sunday School in the Fall.

 

[Pastor Carl Smith]

Our church had a discussion meeting last week about the Pandemic. One man said he was giving communion to his family blessing the bread and the wine. Personally I believe in the apostolic succession and believe that an ordained minister from a church in the apostolic line of succession should do the blessing and lead such a service. But saying this provoked a more general discussion over what required physical presence to be real and what could be done remotely. Obviously with Covid-19 stalking the pews many believers around the world are forced to worship at home. But what does that mean when it comes to sacraments and sharing and indeed doing church.

Before this degenerates into a Catholic - Protestant denominational discussion I would like to point out that during the Black Death pope Clement VI was so worried about the inability of priests to give last rites without dying of the plague he actually gave a general absolution for anyone who died of plague. So a sort of remote absolution?

So my questions to all groups of Christians is this. Does plague give special dispensation for a virtual sharing of the sacraments as opposed to the physical sharing of them. Do we have take the physical bread and wine to be in communion with Christ. Can we baptise online. Can we be married online in the eyes of God.

What does it mean to do church in the days of Pandemics. What things will just have to wait for us to be physically back together and what things can be done online

Church is where ever you choose to be when praising the lord it is not physical.

 

[1213]

...Do we have take the physical bread and wine to be in communion with Christ. Can we baptise online. Can we be married online in the eyes of God.

What does it mean to do church in the days of Pandemics. What things will just have to wait for us to be physically back together and what things can be done online

By what Jesus taught, we can have bread and wine without any priest.

Then he took a loaf of bread, gave thanks, broke it in pieces, and handed it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Keep on doing this in memory of me.” He did the same with the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, poured out for you.
Luke 22:19-20

So, if you are a disciple of Jesus, you can do that in your home in memory of Jesus.

I think many things can be done online. But I think baptizing is not possible so, because it needs someone to do it physically. However, also in this case, any disciple of Jesus can do it as Jesus taught.