Who Goes To Hell?

[Saint Steven]

... Well; just to be on the safe side, I highly recommend that those folk invest in a starter prayer like this:

"Lord; I would like to appropriate your son's blood to protect myself from the wrath of God."

That's nuts.
Was Jesus crucified to save you from God?
Your prayer is asking God to protect you from God. ??? !!!
Asking God to use the blood of his son (which God required) to protect you from himself. !!! ???
What is this madness?
A complete misunderstanding of grace.

 

[Saint Steven]

Romans 6:23 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 5:24 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
24 `Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.

 

[Der Alte]

Romans 6:23 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
John 5:24 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
24 `Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.

I always ask UR-ites what makes a version "literal?" I never get an answer. So my conclusion is for URs a "literal" version is one that supports UR.

EOB Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
EOB John 5:24 Amen, amen, I tell you; the one who hears my word and believes in him who sent me has eternal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. ​

In Jn 5;24 "aionios" is paired with "passed from death into life." "age(s)" does not equate to "passed from death into life."
Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios.”
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone has doubts about the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

 

[FineLinen]

I've been active on internet forums since 1997 and in the last twenty-three years have encountered a surprising number of folk who've never once spoken with God about the possibility of their ending up in the wrong place; nor has it ever occurred to them that maybe they ought to speak with God about it. Well; just to be on the safe side, I highly recommend that those folk invest in a starter prayer like this...

It is becoming evident your tri-partate being is in need of an experience of ephphatha. The Master still specializes in opening blind eyes & deaf ears!

The final chapter of Abba =

Source of the all, Guide of the all, Goal of the all.

 

[Der Alte]

...

It is becoming evident your tri-partate being is in need of an experience of ephphatha. The Master still specializes in opening blind eyes & deaf ears!
The final chapter of Abba =
Source of the all, Guide of the all, Goal of the all.

Universal reconcilation-ites [UR-ites] claim to read/quote "literal" Bible versions but are unable to say what makes a "literal" version actually "literal." What is evident is they need to read a version that is literal because it is translated by native Greek speaking scholars.
Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, footnote pg. 180

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
Also in the EOB Paul uses “αιονιον/aionon,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, below.
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.​

In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionon" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone doubts the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

​

 

[WebersHome]

.

That's nuts.

Yes.

Was Jesus crucified to save you from God?

Yes.

Your prayer is asking God to protect you from God. ??? !!!

Yes.

Asking God to use the blood of his son (which God required) to protect you from himself. !!! ???

Yes.
_

 

[ClementofA]

I always ask UR-ites what makes a version "literal?" I never get an answer.

You've been repeatedly answered & this is at least the 4th time recently.

The problem is you don't read posts in reply to you. Then repeat the same erroneous info over & over again. Like you've done here.

The following was addressed to you a number of days ago:

I have asked many times but UR-ites cannot tell me what makes a "literal" version.

Actually you were told at least two times. Both of them this week:

Who Goes To Hell?

Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

And other points in your post have been addressed & refuted (shown to be in error) repeatedly, as a search of the forums will reveal.

 

[WebersHome]

.
The original passover in Egypt is useful for explaining Christ's role as a passover lamb. Another useful event is the deadly snakes.

● John 3:14-17 . . As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

The incident to which Christ referred is located at Num 21:5-9. Long story short: Moses' people became weary of eating manna all the time at every meal. But instead of courteously, and diplomatically, petitioning their divine benefactor for a different diet, they became hostile and confrontational; angrily demanding tastier food.

In response to their insolence, and their ingratitude for His providence; God sent a swarm of deadly poisonous vipers among them; which began striking people; and every strike was 100% fatal, no exceptions.

After a number of people died, the rest came to their senses and begged Moses to intercede. In reply; The Lord instructed Moses to fashion a model of the vipers and hoist it up on a pole in plain view so that everyone dying from venom could look to the model for relief.

The key issue here is that the model was the only God-given remedy for the people's bites-- not sacrifices and offerings, not tithing, not church attendance, not scapulars, not confession, not holy days of obligation, not the Sabbath, not the golden rule, not charity, not Bible study and/or Sunday school, not self denial, not vows of poverty, not the Ten Commandments, not one's religion of choice, no; not even prayers. The model was it; nothing else would suffice to save their lives.

Now the catch is: snake-bitten people had to look to it; they couldn't just know about it. And they had to look to it for themselves; nobody could look to it for them. Those who failed to look to it died.

As an allegory, the brazen serpent indicates that Christ's crucifixion for the sins of the world is the only God-given rescue from the wrath of God; and when people accept it, then according to John 3:14-17 and John 5:24, they qualify for a transfer from death into life. Those who reject his crucifixion for the sins of the world as the only God-given rescue from the sum of all fears are already on the docket to face it.

● John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

» His son's "name" in this case is relative to the brazen serpent incident.
_

 

[ClementofA]

EOB Romans 6:23 The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

Everyone has sinned, so every fallen human being receives the wages of sin, which is death. Does that, then, mean by "death" that everyone gets endless annihilation or tortured for eons that never end? Obviously not.

Scripture knows nothing of any endless death, but says that death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

1 Cor.15: 28 Now when all things shall have been put in subjection to Him, then also the Son Himself will be put in subjection to the One having put in subjection all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Beyond all that, your translation is misleading. A number of more literal honest versions read otherwise, such as, for an example:

Rom_6:23 “For the ration of Sin is death, yet the gracious gift of God is life eonian, in Christ Jesus, our Lord.” (CLV)

Rom 6 23 doesn't address the question of how many human beings will get the gift of "life eonian". OTOH Scripture reveals that everyone will obtain "life" & be "constituted just":

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Rom.1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Worthy of death, not endless tortures or endless annihilation.

Rom.8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, 21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom.11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath imprisoned them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

36 For out of him, and through him, and into him, is all: to whom be glory into the eons. Amen.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
​

 

[ClementofA]

EOB John 5:24 Amen, amen, I tell you; the one who hears my word and believes in him who sent me has eternal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
​

In Jn 5;24 "aionios" is paired with "passed from death into life." "age(s)" does not equate to "passed from death into life."

[5]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

1) Much of what i've already pointed out above re other verses in John applies here as well.
2) So once again your argument re aionion fails.
3) Re the comment above "unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death." Of course that can happen when one His followers believe only "for a while" (Lk.8:13) or makes shipwreck of their faith (1 Tim.1:19) or does not continue in faith (Col.1:21-23).
4) A more literal & less misleading translation is found in a number of more literal Bible versions, such as:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I am saying to you that he who is hearing My word and believing Him Who sends Me, has life eonian and is not coming into judging, but has proceeded out of death into life. (CLV)
5) The "not coming into condemnation" in the verse is conditionally dependent on the "believing". If one eternally believes then one will eternally never come into condemnation.
6) Believing continually also results in eonian life, but that doesn't mean eonian life, life in the coming eon, or the eon itself, is eternal.
7) Although those who obtain life in the coming eon will have immortality, which is eternal life.
8) And as they will be always with the Lord (1 Thess.4:17) & God will be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28), they will be blessed & never come into condemnation.
9) Der Alter states: "In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” " They are in the same verse, but it is continual belief until one has immortality - not aionios - that results in "shall not come into condemnation" & "passed from death unto life".
10). Der Alter says: "“Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death." That is not necessarily the case. The reason being that not coming into condemnation does not have to be dependent on aionion life meaning eternal life. Something that you appear to assume. Jesus doesn't condemn the person, not because they will attain to eonian life (life in the millenial eon), but because they believe in Him! So your argument fails.

Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “aionios.”
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone has doubts about the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

What makes you think native Greek speaking scholars know any more than any other Greek scholars? Are they your Pope of scholars? ECF universalists were also native Greek speaking scholars & not 2000 years removed from Christ.

In the early church universalism was the orthodox (biblical) view & may have been the orthodox (majority) view for centuries (see urls below) prior to the dark ages.
It may also be today, or be on the way to becoming, the majority Christian view (see urls below):

Early Church Writings Fathers:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times
Indeed Very Many: Universalism in the Early Church
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Lawrence R. Farley

Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, footnote pg.108
Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96

That alleged EOB quote contradicts your Jewish quotes from the Jewish Encyclopedia.

EOB says Hades is not hell/Gehenna/the lake of fire.

JE says Hades is Gehenna.

So which of the two do you agree with & which is wrong?

BTW, did you know EOB consistently renders Greek phrases literally with "unto [the] ages of ages" rather than with the self contradictory "forever and ever" nonsense of many versions? So who's wrong, the EGO translation or KJV & Bullinger?

Also the Greek Bible (EOB) you have been recently touting as the Pope of all Bible versions isn't very impressed with your love for the NIV:

"Every attempt has been made to offer an accurate and scholarly translation of the
Greek text, free of the theological bias that has affected most other translations of the New Testament, including the NIV (2 Thess. 2:15) andNAB (Matt. 5:32)"

"...Orthodox Christians should be aware that the foundational Greek text used by most modern translations such as the New International Version and (New) Revised Standard Version is the Critical Text (CT). By contrast, the foundational text for the King James and New King James versions is the Textus Receptus (TR). Moreover, many use the dynamicequivalency translation approach as opposed to formal-equivalency. Due to doctrinal bias and other aberrations, these translations are generally prohibited for ecclesiastical use by Orthodox hierarchs."

https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf

EOB states the translation was originally intended to be a revision of the New English Bible.

They consulted a Murray J. Harris. Harris is alleged to have gained his PHD under FF Bruce of known endless punishment bias.

EOB adds: "Luke's overaching theme is the universal salvation brought about by Christ and the fact that the outcast and neglected are embraced by it."

It seems they don't have the biblical teaching of universalism in mind with that remark, though AFAIK it is not ruled out by the EOB notes.

At Titus 1:2 where aionios occurs EOB translates with "before the age begun" rather than using the English words "eternal" or "everlasting".

EOB also states:

"...Hence, the goal of the main text is to provide the reader with a clear sense of what the Scriptures say with possible nuances, not how they should be interpreted."

Of course many Eastern Orthodox today are hopeful universalists or universalists, as they were also in the times of the early church:

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

 

[ClementofA]

…..Note, in the EOB, footnote pg. 180

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
​

Having said all that, when Jesus audience heard Him say "these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" how could they possibly understand that as referring to a thousand year aion which had never been mentioned at that time.

How could they possibly know? There were a number of ancient views re a finite Messianic reign that would occur at the end of the age. The length of this finite period varied from hundreds to several thousand years, 1000 years being quite common.

Secondly the only OT reference to "eonian life" was Dan.12:2-3, which was the exact same topic Jesus spoke of in Mt.25:46. So His hearers should have seen a connection there with the words "eonian life". Furthermore, they should have seen the connection between life & punishment in both Dan.12:2-3 & Mt.25:46. Additionally, they could have realized that the eonian contrast in Dan.12:2 is between finite destinies. So it wouldn't be impossible to conclude that it would be a 1000 year eon.

The context of Dan.12:2 suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?

In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

Good. "Aionios" in Matthew 25:46 means eternal./everlasting.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart comments in his extensive notes (Concluding Scientific Postscript) re aionios following his translation of the New Testament:

"...John Chrysostom, in his commentary on Ephesians, even used the word aionios of the kingdom of the devil specifically to indicate that it is temporary (for it will last only until the end of the present age, he explains). In the early centuries of the church, especially in the Greek and Syrian East, the lexical plasticity of the noun and the adjective was fully appreciated -and often exploited - by a number of Christian theologians and exegetes (especially such explicit universalists as the great Alexandrians Clement and Origen, the "pillar of orthodoxy" Gregory of Nyssa and his equally redoubtable sister Makrina, the great Syrian fathers Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, Theodoret of Cyrus, and Isaac of Ninevah, and so on, as well as many other more rhetorically reserved universalists, such as Gregory of Nazianzus)."

"Late in the fourth century, for instance, Basil the Great, bishop of Caesarea, reported that the vast majority of his fellow Christians (at least, in the Greek-speaking East with which he was familiar) assumed that "hell" is not an eternal condition, and that the "aionios punishment" of the age to come would end when the soul had been purified of its sins and thus prepared for union with God. Well into the sixth century, the great Platonist philosopher Olympiodorus the Younger could state as rather obvious that the suffering of wicked souls in Tartarus is certainly not endless, atelevtos, but is merely aionios; and the squalidly brutal and witless Christian emperor Justinian, as part of his campaign to extinguish the universalism of the "Origenists", found it necessary to substitute the word atelevtetos for aionios when describing the punishments of hell, since the latter word was not decisive..."

"As late as the thirteenth century, the East Syrian bishop Solomon of Bostra, in his authoritative compilation of the teachings of the "holy fathers" of Syrian Christian tradition, simply stated as a matter of fact that in the New Testament le-alam (the Syriac rendering of aionios) does not mean eternal, and that of course hell is not endless. And the fourteenth-century East Syrian Patriarch Timotheus II thought it uncontroversial to assert that the aionios pains of hell will come to an end when the souls cleansed by them, through the prayers of the saints, enter paradise" (The New Testament: A Translation, by David Bentley Hart, 2017, p.539-540).

https://www.amazon.com/New-Testament-David-Bentley-Hart/dp/0300186096

Hart adds:

"...how greatly formulations that seem to imply universal salvation outnumber those that appear to threaten an ultimate damnation for the wicked. Still, none of that surprised me; it merely roused me from my complacent assumption that, simply by virtue of having read the text in Greek for many years, I had a natural feel for its tone."

Christ's Rabble | Commonweal Magazine

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?

It is repeating a line of argument that, so far, you have not even come close to successfully refuting.

You claim Mt.25:46 as a proof text against universalism. I showed 2 separate reasonable universalist interpretations of the text. In order for your "proof text" interpretation to remain a "proof" you must refute both of my reasonable universalist interpretations & prove them false. Since you've failed to do so, your "proof text" fails as a "proof text". All you are left with, therefore, is a theory, while being unable to refute the 2 alternate reasonable interpretations that I posted, as follows:

There are two main universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46:

(1) The aionion life & the aionion punishment refer to contrasting eonian destinies pertaining to a finite eonian period to come, e.g. the millennial eon. The verse has nothing to do, & says nothing about, final destiny. Regarding the endless life of the righteous in Christ, other passages address that topic, such as those that speak of immortality, incorruption & being unable to die.

(2) Another universalist option in interpretating Mt.25:46 is that aionion life refers to a perpetual life that lasts as long as God Almighty wills it to last, so it is endless. OTOH, aionion punishment refers to a perpetual punishment that also lasts as long as Love Omnipotent wills it to last, which is until it has served its useful purpose in bringing the offender to the salvation in their Savior, Who died & shed His blood for their sins. While life is an end in itself, punishment is a means to an end.

Furthermore, since aionion is an adjective, it "must therefore function like an adjective, and it is the very nature of an adjective for its meaning to vary, sometimes greatly, depending upon which noun it qualifies." A tall chair is not the same height as a tall mountain. Likewise, the aionion punishment is not of the same duration as the aionion life.

That was a brief explanation of the main two different universalist interpretations of Mt.25:46. Following are more elaborate remarks in support of these two perspectives:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...in-duration-with-aionion-in-mt-25-46.8069208/

It is not an assumption that Matthew 25:46 employs a parallel, but a plain fact.

Interpretation 1 above accepts the parallel of "eonian destinies". So the parallel there is not denied. Likewise interpretation 2 above acknowledging parallel perpetual destinies. But that the word perpetual can vary according to its subject.

Let us look at this verse again:

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

 

[JulieB67]

It's obvious some of us are not going to agree on this subject- which is fine. We all have to sail our own ships.

But did want to say, I've read nothing here that would make me believe that someone who is thrown into the lake of fire is brought back out again.

Many of you are posting long excerpts/opinions from men, youtube videos, etc that is strictly what we should not being doing. We need to read the bible, chapter by chapter verse by verse as to not taking anything out of context and also translating back to the earlier languages when at all possible. But the bible as a whole lays out everything, the old and the new. And the wages of sin is death. (repentance and belief on Christ passes us from death into eternal life) Yes, we are alive after our physcial death, but the second death is the final death, the death of the soul and this is what the bible is talking about. There's no coming back from that.

I hope we can all agree at least that in Ezekiel, the King of Tyre is symbolic of Satan. Well Satan is turned to ashes. And there are other instances where it refers to people being turned to stubble, etc. God is a consuming fire. And most of you are saying that God will put you into the Lake of Fire until you submit and repent. But there is no logic in that at all. Ashes can't repent, period. Someone even had to go further and say God will make the person new but that wouldn't be the same person so that takes away Christ's work on the cross. You're getting way off the path and talking about reincarnation at that point.

Yes, every knee will bow and to the glory of God when Christ returns and that will give God glory because he deserves it after all the wickedness done and done even against him. It doesn't mean they'll repent. Even Satan and the angels believe in God. Revelation talk about many people not repenting of anything. That's just the way it will be.

It's obvious people will still be following Satan in the 1000 years after he is loosed because no everyone is in the book of life. Christ is savior to the entire world but that simply means he is the "only" way the world can be saved, not that everyone will.

. Are you a SDA?

Nope, non demontial Christian that left the Baptist church when I saw many of the doctrines they taught were not biblical- pretrib rapture, eternal hell, etc

So you agree that it is God's redemptive purpose to reconcile all sinners to Himself, and you agree that He has the power to do so, yet you also believe that He will not do so?

He has the power but it's up to "us", we "HAVE" to do the knocking. This is made clear through the old and new testament but we have to make that choice. At the great white throne of judgement, there are no more choices. That's what judgement is all about. Some will be in the book of "life" and some not.

Romans 6:23 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
That's true and the is talking about the second death, your spirtual death.

John 5:24 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
24 `Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life.

Again, there is a condition there- those hearing the word and believing. When you are ashes, there is no hearing the word, no believing. Christ has the victory over death, but one has to hear the word and believe him who sent me.

Everyone has sinned, so every fallen human being receives the wages of sin, which is death. Does that, then, mean by "death" that everyone gets endless annihilation or tortured for eons that never end? Obviously not.

I'll refer you to what I posted to Saint Steven above. The condition that passes you over from death (very much like the passover lamb) is hearing the word and believing on him that sent Christ. Not everyone is going to do that. Satan is very persuasive, he and his will be here on the earth to deceive for the first time (Christ and Paul say beware)
And the whole world will wonder after him. This is biblical. God wants to see who has studied enough to prepare because many will away (2nd Thes) Anti in the Greek means "instead of" he will be here instead of Christ. Looks like a lamb (Christ) but spoke as a dragon. Most of the world will jump on his bandwagon because they will believe he is the savior of the world. Christ says he comes at an hour most do not expect. That's because most will already believe he's here. Then when people are feeling peace and safety -destruction God's wrath. This is all biblical, not a man's opinion, not a youtube video.

This has been about God and Satan since the Katabole (overthrow, foundation of the world) And it continues to be about that. Paul says we are to have the full armour in place. And seeing how Satan knows the word better than most Christians, that's a smart decision. Satan has one more chance after the 1000 years because God wants to be very sure who will decide to follow him or Satan. He's very long suffering and even at that point wants to give many a chance to repent and come into the fold. This is his plan and it's biblical. If the lake of fire was his ultimate plan for salvation, it makes all of this, null and void which is simply not the case.

It doesn't make sense what many of you believe. I almost wonder if some have read their bibles to see God's full plan for salvation, the old and the new. There's even more to it than many can see as well. It's easy to read verses here and there and listen to people who can easily sway people but that takes you away from God's word and plan. and God says we are put our trust in him, not man.

I am studying, still learning. But having read the bible in it's entirety I can never come to the conclusion of what many of you believe. It takes away from God's overall plan. Once I had read the bible (still aways studying), I saw many false doctrines fall away from my mind, rapture, eternal burning hell and so on. But I never saw anything that would make me believe will God will rejuvinate someone from ash. And again, that's not God's plan and it certainly takes away from Christ.

I'm getting closer to our Father, waiting on the true Christ (not the fake that comes first) and not in fear because of my faith and love. It's taking years but I would not have it any other way. God says we have to accept and love the truth and I do. Those that don't will perish.

Scripture knows nothing of any endless death, but says that death will be abolished (1 Cor.15:26).

Yes, and death will be abolished at the second death. Ashes cannot repent, and once again, that takes away God's perfect plan of salvation of sending his son that through him, we can believe, repent and pass over from death to life.

 

[agapelove]

He has the power but it's up to "us", we "HAVE" to do the knocking. This is made clear through the old and new testament but we have to make that choice.

If it was up to “us” then we would be our own saviors.

 

[JulieB67]

If it was up to “us” then we would be our own saviors

What I meant to say was he does the knocking but we "have" to hear and let him in. Many are called, but few are chosen. There is a condition. If not, what is the point of all this and God's ultimate plan as I posted above?

 

[agapelove]

What I meant to say was he does the knocking but we "have" to hear and let him in. Many are called, but few are chosen. There is a condition. If not, what is the point of all this and God's ultimate plan as I posted above?

God's ultimate plan is for humanity to be summed up in Christ.

 

[JulieB67]

His plan is yes, to save as many of us has he can. But that is not what is laid out in the bible.
What is your opinion on the tribulation of the end times and after that the 1000 year reign? What is God's purpose for those in your opinion?

Edited to say one final thing is that differences aside about this issue, Paul says if all you do is continue in salvation issues after receiving Christ as your Savior. you are never getting off the milk into the meat of God's word. There's so much more. And one needs to know what is completely laid out in the bible

 

[FineLinen]

His plan is yes, to save as many of us has he can. But that is not what is laid out in the bible.

Plan A =

"God IS the Saviour of all mankind, especially those who believe. Command & teach these things."

alternate plan =

God would like to be the Saviour of all men but will only save as many as He can. Command & teach these things.

 

[agapelove]

What is your opinion on the tribulation of the end times and after that the 1000 year reign? What is God's purpose for those in your opinion?

It doesn't matter what my opinion is but there is an assortment of theories out there if you're interested in the topic.

The tribulation and the 1000 years reign are prophecies that will be/have been fulfilled.

 

[Saint Steven]

Again, there is a condition there- those hearing the word and believing. When you are ashes, there is no hearing the word, no believing. Christ has the victory over death, but one has to hear the word and believe him who sent me.

You are an Annihilationist then? (the "lost" are incinerated to ashes)

 

[Saint Steven]

His plan is yes, to save as many of us has he can. But that is not what is laid out in the bible.

An eternal failure then?