Purveyor of Confusion

[miknik5]

The short of Matthew 12:32 Those who thought they were wise, offered wrong judgment of who HIS father at work in HIM was...
that´s a grave no,no...better to be silent and confused, rather than open your mouth and speak blasphemy against the WORK of GOD....

 

[miknik5]

As I've told others in this thread, when I was a believer, [my] take was basically faith. This was until I read the Bible for myself. This is when the confusion truly began. To make a very long story short, you get to Matthew 25:31-46, and one cannot help but to scratch their head. It does not align with the conclusion of faith. It at least begs for a conclusion that you not only require faith, but works. Or instead, to pick one as more prominent than the other. Which then begs the question... How much of each (faith/works) is really and truly needed?

Example... Maybe your faith is seen as weak, if you do not give away all possessions? Maybe words are cheap. Maybe you are not truly faithful, if your actions do not comport with Jesus' criteria?

Thus, if faith is all, and according to verses from the Bible, to demonstrate true faith, requires great sacrifice. And I doubt most here have done so. Because, as I've stated prior here, talk is extremely cheap. Maybe the fact that you have no intention of adhering to some of these requirements, means that your faith is weak? Maybe God sees this, and when you die, and are judged, He will reject you. Maybe the fact that most do not think to follow some of God's criteria, is a testament to demonstrate, that most will not end up in God's heaven?

Answered already three times that I know of and is the very verse which two posters told you to read John 5 as the parallel to this verse.

Sir, I don´t know if you understand this....but to offer snippets, rather than read in context will OF COURSE leave you confused....

Further, GOD´S WORD will NOT contradict HIS WORD

 

[miknik5]

Yes I did read them.

Did you happen to read the entire post you cherry picked? I explained as to why my conclusion is what it is. And further, even if I was to entertain 2philo's conclusion, as to why it still presents a problem....

One that I also demonstrated to 'dcalling' long ago... Which is to say, you can truly believe something, smite it later, reject it later, etc, and then ask for forgiveness at a later time. His only defense was that a 'true Christian' would never do that.

What is yours?

Mine is this;

1 John 2 and 2 John 1

The difference between those who keep before them what they began in...KNOWING that this is all that is needed and needful...

And those who don´t

 

[cvanwey]

It is clearly there for you sir...please read John 6 and listen to what the WILL and the WORK of GOD is...

I'm gathering, from your other responses, that your claim to salvation is 'faith'. However, telling me to read an entire Chapter, without any clarification, will do little to resolve.

So, am I now to assume salvation that salvation lies in faith? And/or other?

 

[miknik5]

I'm gathering, from your other responses, that your claim to salvation is 'faith'. However, telling me to read an entire Chapter, without any clarification, will do little to resolve.

So, am I now to assume salvation that salvation lies in faith? And/or other?

Sir, if you don´t, there is no reason to continue the discussion...because, just as a teacher, who has read the whole work of the assignment, and knows what to expect of her students, if one student reads only a snippet and tries to turn in an assignment, that teacher will know he/she did not do the full work, but has only skimmed over the assignment.

We know sir...we know that you haven´t done your work...
Worse still, you imply that those who have don´t know the work.

and they certainly do.

We are teaching and instructing..YOU...
It is NOT the other way around...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

One 'what if' question, followed by an answer to it's own question, or explanation, is hardly anything to get into a twist over. And further, it's 'cvanwey'. You've done this a few times now I would think, since you have followed me so intently over these past couple of years, you would at least get my name-handle right?



Remember what I told you long ago? When one has no rebuttal, they likely adhere to 3 types of responses:

1. commit an ad hominem(s)
2. do not respond to the inquiry
3. change the subject

How many of these did you perform in this post response alone?



Judging from your past history, I doubt this is the last we will be seeing of you in this thread.?.?.? Remains to be seen...

But the 'what if' remains on the table to address, if you should happen to feel the need to actually productively engage.

Even a 'pharisee-like' individual can have a later change in heart. And if so, looks like they are hosed, and maybe should not bother. God's tolerance for ultimate forgiveness has it's limits.

Is there an example in the New Testament of an overly zealous Pharisee minded individual who later "changed his mind"? If not, then we might wonder why not.

Maybe the authors of the Gospels and of the book of Acts thought that human nature was such that if Jesus made a proclamation about some persons, it's because He, being informed by the Holy Spirit, KNEW that those 'suckas' just weren't going to 'change their minds'............................EVER?

So, in the case of the Pharisees Jesus confronted about blasphemy, Jesus made them the brunt of His example and did so because if He knew that no amount of miraculous demonstration done before their very eyes would get them to change their minds about Him at any time, whether now or in the future. And He knew they were doomed!

Yeah, I think this is the case, and I doubt you, especially you, let alone anyone else here, will be able to undo the hermeneutical point that I'm making here. So, what does this mean? It means that if God isn't demonstrating through the Holy Spirit something in Cartesian terms that is the kind of proof (i.e. "clear and distinctly discernable") that should sway just about anyone sane, then the person in that unclear and indistinct circumstance can still yet be forgiven his or her blasphemy .................................. if they truly repent and turn to God through Christ!

End of "hermeneutical" Story.

The Gauntlet has been thrown at your feet, "Mr., I'm gonna just keep popping them over the head with questions that aren't always necessary and ignoring everything that anyone will provide to me, regardless" ... or whatever your name is.

 

[cvanwey]

Because all of Luke 14 is talking to those who were on the fence. Just as I told you. Please review ALL of Luke 14 for proper understanding...
HE IS building...and what HE is building with are those who will follow HIM...and KNOW the difference between trinkets and TRUE TREASURE...

It´s a HEART matter, sir...

Maybe God deems you "on the fence?" Maybe the fact that you do not give up everything to follow Him, means that your faith is just a word? Jesus lays down criteria to demonstrate faith.

 

[cvanwey]

Salvation is achieved by FAITH in CHRIST JESUS...and HE who is the Author of our faith, is also the finisher of our faith...

Believe me, HE will give us the work that we should do...and will provide the tools for those works as well...Just as ephesians 2 says

Again, maybe the fact that you have no intention of giving up everything to follow Him, as He specifies in Luke 14:25-33, means that your faith is weak.

 

[cvanwey]

No. I said both...I clearly said that GOD, knowing our limited humanity, provided signs and symbols of HIS HIDDEN SPIRITUAL TRUTHS.

The literal flood is also symbolic of deep spiritual truths which are hidden from some...

You stated the literal part was that a flood happened, leaving only 8 humans remaining. And not literal, in the sense that it was a 'baptism', right?

I want to be clear before I continue here.

 

[cvanwey]

The author did NOT fully understand what he was prophecying sir...

But...he does now...and every word of GOD in signs and symbols and shadows points to ALL THE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS hidden IN CHRIST>

Was there a literal flood event or not?

 

[cvanwey]

And GOD does, refine our faith, sir...all for one purpose...to prove genuine so as to result in HIS GLORY alone...

If you read the letters of Peter, you would understand

You again did not answer the direct question. If you are not going to answer, then just say so. I'll ask one last time.

How do you know God is not referring to [you], via Luke 14:25-33?

God delivers set criteria, to demonstrate the truly faithful, from the ones whom merely speak with words; yet do not back up their faith with His requested action(s).

Talk is cheap.

 

[cvanwey]

Again Luke 14 is directed at those who can´t get off the fence.

Same answer... How do you know God does not deem you 'on the fence', and a testament of your true faith, is to give up all?

 

[cvanwey]

I already told you, the original greek word for blaspheme means to switch right and wrong.

God told us that if you blaspheme God/Jesus it can be forgiven.
God told us if you blaspheme against Holy Spirit you can't.

I wasn't aware God's official language was Greek?

And yes, it is different. A and B are different We've been over this many times now:

"32 Anyone who speaks a word against the (A) will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against (B) will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Reason? Holy Spirit is the one that opens your eyes and let you see things. Once you have the Holy Spirit you really know God. If you don't have it, no matter how good/pious a life you have been living, been a Monk, been a devoted Christian/Jew/Muslim (but a fake one since you don't have the Holy Spirit), you don't know God.

More regurgitation... You don't think a true believer can ever 'speak against' God in times of turmoil, stress, tragedy, despair, etc...? Only to later attempt to go back? And IF NOT, then the verses, again, is like saying something as redundant or useless as...

"All non-Christians are not Christian, and all Christians are Christian."

“I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms” (Ephesians 1:17-20).

I thank you for this. I'll let you know if I receive anything. And you would think, that in your heart felt request, and also in line with Scripture (i.e.) Matthew 7:7, Matthew 21:22, Mark 11:24, John 14:13-14, John 16:23, that something might actually happen?

If they have the Holy Spirit they won't be afraid.

Please see above

See my quote above. A pharisee-like individual will not have the holy spirit. The Holy spirit might come down and change him, but before that he does not have the holy spirit and does not know God.

Sure, and this individual could then again turn away, for the various reasons listed above (i.e.) turmoil, stress, tragedy, despair, etc.... Seems as though God will not forgive such actions.

 

[cvanwey]

You doubt it? Sir,

Then I doubt your faith is genuine right now Maybe Jesus thinks the same thing; since you are not willing to give up all to follow Him?

 

[cvanwey]

I think you might want to refer to Jesus words in John 9.

I'm not here for suggestions on reading entire Chapters arbitrarily Ma'am . If you want to give me your conclusion, great. If not, I've already read the Bible.

Again:

What if one's heart tells them they truly see the Bible as a fiction, where it 'counts' anyways (i.e.) anything supernatural in claim?

Again, this is an earnest interpretation of many. It would seem God would reject this human's inward heart, in this instance. So it would appear that the 'heart' is not enough. It would depend on what that person's heart has concluded.

Thus, I ask you again, who's teaching the right stuff, and who is delivering false teaching, which might lead an earnest human astray from the real God?

 

[cvanwey]

Are you asking who will be responsible for those who reject THE TRUTH of THE GOSPEL, sir?

Nope

Is that what you are asking?

No ma'am

But the man who heard THE GOSPEL, and did not believe? He alone is responsible for himself.

Okay, according to your conclusion, is God going to send this person to hell, for something they cannot control (i.e.) belief?

 

[cvanwey]

In case you haven't noticed I didn't come here to disagree with you.

Kool. All I ask is your earnest take on any given inquiry

God will not "smite" anyone, He responds with mercy and compassion even to those whose hearts are hardened (some of which are hardened by Him.) It is we who have responded with condemnation and ostracism.

Here, I'm going to have to disagree with you

If the tenets for salvation are faith based, or maybe even faith/works based, then is would seem Christianity is compulsory. Hence, if you do not adhere appropriately, He will punish you. -- Just like the IRS, or the criminal justice system. So yes, it seems God would be the one doing the 'smiting'.

God is the judge and the jury. His judgement deems your fate. You have no option to opt out, like you could with the IRS; where you could merely move to another country to get away from the law for which you disagree.

Exactly, we don't know. Like humans have always done, we explain the unexplained by turning to the divine. You see how faith works there?

What about the ones whom just remain with "I don't know"? If the tenets for salvation is 'faith' based, then these individuals are condemned eternally.

Ephesians 2:5 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.

Does this mean everyone goes? Because according to God, none of us are worthy.

Or, do you also have to believe, other?

You have to understand, everyone I ask, is giving me a differing answer. And/or referencing differing passages of extreme importance as to THE way to salvation....

 

[cvanwey]

1. I don't claim it, I have to qualifications to prove it.
2. I answered the original question but you kept changing the subject when the answer was quite reasonable
3. See 2

If you should happen to think I do not give your response(s) enough credence, please point them out specifically. We are well over 500+ posts deep. Laying out a generalized accusation, without backing it up with a post #, gets us nowhere.

Well confusions mounts not because you are looking for AN answer, but because you want there to be multiple answers. I suspect if you ask a Roman Catholic they will tell you there is only true answer and it is theirs. I don't see a lot of problem with that even if I think they are wrong.

Depends on the claim, I reckon

As a theologian (thanks for pointing this out) I need to weigh up all of the possible answers where there are discrepancies and attempt to understand what actually happens.

So instead of taking an answer weighing it up and deciding if it is right or wrong yourself, you simply present them all as though they were the right answer and then say that confusion abounds. That certainly isn't how theology works. In fact I don't think it's how science works either. Just imagine the sun's relationship to the Earth.

Ancient Science says the Sun revolves around the Earth.
Modern Science says the Earth revolves around the Sun.
cvanwey says this is all confusing because they can't agree.

Funny you should mention this...

I've pointed this out to others prior. You do not have to know everything to still know someone else's claim is mistaken. Case/point:

3K years ago. "The earth is flat."
75 years ago. "The earth is a perfect sphere."
25 years ago. "The earth is pear shaped."

50 years from now, what is the likelihood new discovery will conclude the earth is flat again? Is it safe to say we can rule out that out as an option, no matter what we find moving forward?

Furthermore, religious claims and scientific claims are not the same. Religion makes an assertion that something always was true. It is statically true.

As seen above, science, medicine, or other, make strides and leaps towards 'better' and/or more accurate outcomes.

When we read in Genesis, that 'the flood was not to be taken literally', this is the apologist spinning the assertion, since they now have no choice but to reconcile that to conclude a literal translation, would mean the author did not know what they were talking about. Where-as, in science or medicine, they just replace antiquated studies with newer/better case work, moving forward.

So my advice study all of the answers, determine why people think the way they do, engage with their ideas and why they might think a different way. Possibly you could come up with your own solution (just be prepared for it to be shot down in flames if it doesn't make sense).

If it is a question that has only one true answer, but you have got multiple answers to pick from, saying you have multiple answers isn't an intelligent way of find the one true one.

Well, 'faith' doesn't make sense. And yet, that does not stop you

 

[cvanwey]

Now I know you are not reading my posts.

I'm reading your posts, but they say very little. Here is your post from my response in #535:

"Faith,belief in CHRIST JESUS alone"

If it is faith/belief alone, then what does the Bible state about the ones whom cannot perform as such?

And also, why Matthew 25:31-46 is not as important as the other verses you have quoted?

I know I asked this is another post, but I want to make sure you answer

 

[agapelove]

Hence, if you do not adhere appropriately, He will punish correct you.

There I've fixed it for you.

God is not a vindictive troll, He is a loving Father. Yes he is Judge but first and foremost he is Love. All else is an extension of love. Even his judgments, which can look like punishments from our position, are always for our sake. I think you are giving the IRS a little too much credit with that comparison.

What about the ones whom just remain with "I don't know"? If the tenets for salvation is 'faith' based, then these individuals are condemned eternally.

Sure, let's say the tenets are faith based.

Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
John 5:28 28 Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice.

It's not a matter of if but when all people, past and present, will acknowledge Jesus is Lord.

Philippians 2:10 So that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Does this mean everyone goes? Because according to God, none of us are worthy.

Where do you get that idea from? God thought us so worthy that he sent his Son to die for us. God's eternal purpose, from the foundation of the world, was to sum up all things in Christ, Eph 1.10. You can interpret that however you want.