Purveyor of Confusion

miknik5

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You keep responding to posts, but seem only willing to preach, or deliver a sermon. How about this... Respond to the post. I'll help you out a little bit.

"Do you care to substantiate the claim, that 100's of eye-witnesses saw Jesus after His dead?"

Blank assertions mean little...
Really? Is that what you see? I don´t see it that way at all. You make a comment, and I know what to write...and if you do not understand why I respond in such a manner, that is entirely because of another reason...
 
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miknik5

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You keep responding to posts, but seem only willing to preach, or deliver a sermon. How about this... Respond to the post. I'll help you out a little bit.

"Do you care to substantiate the claim, that 100's of eye-witnesses saw Jesus after His dead?"

Blank assertions mean little...
The only way I can affirm that is to say this

the same outpouring that happened then...still happens today...
 
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miknik5

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Please tell us all why presumably >1 billion Catholics have it all wrong?
I don´t believe they do...
For they are following this...if we confess our sins one to another, HE is just to purify us of all unrighteousness.

Did you, somehow think, that the priests somehow believe that they are the ones capable of forgiving sins?
 
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Ed1wolf

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In Matthew 25:31-46, the entire parable speaks about judgement, based upon helping others, and nothing other than helping others. The point being, you read this entire passage, and it conflicts with other assertive statements for salvation. It conflicts with passages related to faith based salvation, and/or graced/faith based salvation.
No, as I demonstrated John 5 explains the parallel passage in Matthew 25.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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To be righteous, it requires faith? Show me where it is required in Matthew 25:31-46?

Somewhere in the multiverse there is a New Testament that consists only of Matthew 25:31-46.

However back here in the real world this passage is only a small part of the 27 books of the New Testament, it was not even the first so sensibly you can only understand it as a part of the whole and the whole makes it clear (very clear) that righteousness is a result of faith in God.
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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The "Word" in John 1:1 is not the Bible. The Bible was not with God in the beginning in fact it was not until the 5th century that all the different Christian churches came to a basic agreement on Biblical canon.

Actually the canon was formulated long before the 5th century. By the time of the 2nd century all four gospels and all of Paul's writings were agreed as canon plus a few others. Revelation was the last book to formally be included in the 3rd century, but most churches had accepted it long before that.

I watched a pretty good YouTube series last week that I would highly recommend, look up Mike Winger Evidence fo the Bible, parts 12 & 13 (and 14 is about the books that didn't make it in).
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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If 'human flourishing' is the goal, take a look at some of the hindrances, caused by religion:

- no condoms, which result in disease.
- no blood transfusions with some, which result in death.
- women < men
- slavery
- homosexuality = sin
- The teaching of incorrect science, which may cause many of our brightest not to innovate

This is off the top of my head...

If you are off the top of your head, you should probably see a psychiatrist.

In the meantime:

- no condoms is a Catholic only doctrine and it also accompanied by a doctrine of abstinence. Those countries where both are taken seriously actually have less STD than those that adopt only one. Madagascar was the example I remember. Additionally, since the lack of condoms is likely to result in more births, it is also going to end up resulting in human flourishing, whereas condoms by their nature are going to result in suppression!
- no blood transfusions is from a minority cult which has defined its own ideas (that are not in the Bible). Bear in mind that blood transfusions came about because Christian Groups encouraged hospitals. One could make an argument that this group should win a Darwin Award.
- Women < Men hasn't stopped women flourishing and while it is atrocious, arguing that it prevented human flourishing is a very difficult thing... because humans did flourish and had more flourishing when Christianity was the dominant religion than when say the Roman gods were at the fore. You only have to look at China where religion is not a huge factor and see the huge numbers of girls that were abandoned to see that religion has very little to do with it.
- slavery. In some cases slavery has been a good thing - for starters it has caused the spread of ethnicity to the extent that most people have DNA from those who have been forcibly removed recfrom their own countries. On top of that it was Christian groups that planted the seeds of abolition as far back as the 5th century (that's an educated guess, I seem to recall reading one of the great early leaders making the point that Christians really shouldn't have slaves). The abolitionists in the UK were all motivated by their Christian faith (see the movie Amazing Grace for example). I'm not sure about the situation in USA, but I generally get the impression that it was Christian groups that opposed it there too.
- homosexuality = sin is true, so one can argue this one both ways - in other words those that opposed homosexual behaviour contributed to human flourishing.
- the teaching of incorrect science wasn't made by religious groups, it was made by scientists. 150 years ago scientists were still teaching that there were four elements. In fact any survey of science will see that both Islamic and Christian scientists were at the forefront of defying the scientific conventions many of which came from the time of Aristotle.

In order to make a case for religion preventing human flourishing you have to be extremely selective - picking only those items that support your view and conveniently ignoring anything that would disagree.

We might try to make a case for secularism and atheism preventing human flourishing (e.g. the Killing Fields of Cambodia, or the imposition of Communism on China). The best example of this would be Albania which declared itself an atheist state in 1967 and by the time this was overthrown in the 1990s, it was almost medieval in its living conditions. Following this Christianity grew phenomenally with one former atheist saying something along the lines of 'we tried atheism and it didn't work'.

Whether religion is better or worse is always going to be a matter of speculation, however the track record of atheistic countries isn't going to win over anyone who compares it with the flourishing of Christian countries, particularly after the Reformation/Enlightenment.
 
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miknik5

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Please excuse my insight, but if it is okay for you to continue dropping the same verses even after someone had already responded to them and given you sound truth, then you should either stop repeating the same question or move on to another question for FURTHER clarification to what was said in answer to your FIRST question..not keep repeating the FIRST question over and over again..

I hate to say this, sir...but the title of your thread....if this continues, your dropping the same few verses and then not listening to those who post to you, and repeating the same questions again, I can come to no other conclusion then this...

You are the one who is the purveyor of confusion...
 
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Silly Uncle Wayne

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You are the one who is the purveyor of confusion...
Yes I do think that is his intent. It is not about finding answers, he is desperate to show how these passages are contradictory, despite the fact that Christians don't have much problem with them when seen in the context of the whole New Testament ideas of salvation.
 
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cvanwey

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As I said in my last post, I replied to that point earlier, last week, in post #404, which you also replied to. The text tells you what it means, you can read it and let me know what you think.

I'm asking you again, point/blank, because you never answered. What you responded with, I addressed in post #420.

What is [your] take on Matthew 12:32? What do [you] interpret it to mean? You know my conclusion. What is yours, and why?
 
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cvanwey

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Maybe you aren't familiar with the phrase, as in 'odds and ends' and similar uses. You can take something as a whole, whether the bible or some other work of any sort that covers more than a few basic ideas, or you can pick out bits - odd bits, random bits, however you want to phrase it - verses taken at random and without context, random in the sense of bearing little or no relation to the point being made in any meaningful way. The question, if it isn't clear, is a difference between something originally recorded as part of a whole, within which it is intended to be understood, and the later dividing of the text into verses and selecting of some of these to build particular theological ideas. Fast-forward a few centuries and anyone with a predominantly religious mindset (I know you are not a believer but your thinking, as expressed here at least, is marked by religiosity) can pick out some verses that stuck in their mind for one reason or another as if they can somehow be used to understand or explain an idea that was originally conceived of within a much wider cultural, historical and religious context. If you really don't get that you'll need to explain why in a bit more detail as it is quite a clear point.

As I've told others in this thread, when I was a believer, [my] take was basically faith. This was until I read the Bible for myself. This is when the confusion truly began. To make a very long story short, you get to Matthew 25:31-46, and one cannot help but to scratch their head. It does not align with the conclusion of faith. It at least begs for a conclusion that you not only require faith, but works. Or instead, to pick one as more prominent than the other. Which then begs the question... How much of each (faith/works) is really and truly needed?

Example... Maybe your faith is seen as weak, if you do not give away all possessions? Maybe words are cheap. Maybe you are not truly faithful, if your actions do not comport with Jesus' criteria?

Thus, if faith is all, and according to verses from the Bible, to demonstrate true faith, requires great sacrifice. And I doubt most here have done so. Because, as I've stated prior here, talk is extremely cheap. Maybe the fact that you have no intention of adhering to some of these requirements, means that your faith is weak? Maybe God sees this, and when you die, and are judged, He will reject you. Maybe the fact that most do not think to follow some of God's criteria, is a testament to demonstrate, that most will not end up in God's heaven?
 
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Tom 1

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As I've told others in this thread, when I was a believer, [my] take was basically faith. This was until I read the Bible for myself. This is when the confusion truly began. To make a very long story short, you get to Matthew 25:31-46, and one cannot help but to scratch their head. It does not align with the conclusion of faith. It at least begs for a conclusion that you not only require faith, but works. Or instead, to pick one as more prominent than the other. Which then begs the question... How much of each (faith/works) is really and truly needed?

Example... Maybe your faith is seen as weak, if you do not give away all possessions? Maybe words are cheap. Maybe you are not truly faithful, if your actions do not comport with Jesus' criteria?

Thus, if faith is all, and according to verses from the Bible, to demonstrate true faith, requires great sacrifice. And I doubt most here have done so. Because, as I've stated prior here, talk is extremely cheap. Maybe the fact that you have no intention of adhering to some of these requirements, means that your faith is weak? Maybe God sees this, and when you die, and are judged, He will reject you. Maybe the fact that most do not think to follow some of God's criteria, is a testament to demonstrate, that most will not end up in God's heaven?

Yes, I see what you mean. I've met a few people who just get stuck on one idea or another, I'm not sure what the remedy is for that really. It requires being able to assimilate a lot more of what is relevant to the idea, but you have to be open to that I suppose.
 
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cvanwey

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Did you actually read them? The text itself specifically tells you what the meaning is: 'He said this because they were saying, “He has an impure spirit.”'

Yes I did read them.

Did you happen to read the entire post you cherry picked? I explained as to why my conclusion is what it is. And further, even if I was to entertain 2philo's conclusion, as to why it still presents a problem....

One that I also demonstrated to 'dcalling' long ago... Which is to say, you can truly believe something, smite it later, reject it later, etc, and then ask for forgiveness at a later time. His only defense was that a 'true Christian' would never do that.

What is yours?
 
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Tom 1

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I'm asking you again, point/blank, because you never answered. What you responded with, I addressed in post #420.

What is [your] take on Matthew 12:32? What do [you] interpret it to mean? You know my conclusion. What is yours, and why?

Sure I answered it, as you read. What you responded with was another tangent, that isn't really addressing it. Here it is again, from my earlier post:

- '...the same incident appears in all of the synoptic gospels, with Mark adding the explanation 'he (Jesus) said this because they were saying, 'he has an impure/unclean spirit'. Again as you presumably have read, the situation is that people have accused Jesus of doing good 'by the prince of demons'. They are saying when Jesus acts in the spirit of doing good, promoting life and healing, he is doing evil - calling good evil, inverting the fundamental meaning of the two. A person whose mindset is that the actions of the holy spirit are in fact evil will never seek and so never get forgiveness from that spirit or any person associated with it, that person's mind is entirely closed off from the possibility of seeking forgiveness, as who (in the Hebrew culture of the time particularly) would seek forgiveness from a spirit they believe to be impure or unclean - whatever that happens to mean to that individual, the context being one of Jewish cultural and religious notions of impurity/uncleanness, the absolute rejection of Christ as an 'unclean thing' that should be expelled from the community. You cannot reject and accept forgiveness at the same time.'

I can spell it out a bit more if you really interested in arriving at an understanding, but essentially this is what happens:

Jesus heals/challenges some religious people to answer whether it is good to do good on the Sabbath. They respond with silence

Jesus casts out some impure spirits. The same religious people begin to say that Jesus is doing these things through an evil spirit.

This leads to another confrontation where Jesus tells the people who are saying these things that such blasphemy cannot be forgiven.

Mark adds the explanatory note that he was saying these things because the group of religious people had been saying that he, Jesus, had an impure spirit.

So, the people Jesus was speaking to were assigning the good Jesus did to evil, calling evil good/good evil (as elsewhere). A person who rejects the spirit of God as evil cannot at the same time seek forgiveness from that spirit.

A response to this would be you giving your own understanding of the respective passages and why you find them confusing. Going off on some other tangent is not really a response, it's just a random bit of information without relevance. A response to a post would be a response to what is in the post.
 
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Tom 1

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Yes I did read them.

Did you happen to read the entire post you cherry picked? I explained as to why my conclusion is what it is. And further, even if I was to entertain 2philo's conclusion, as to why it still presents a problem....

One that I also demonstrated to 'dcalling' long ago... Which is to say, you can truly believe something, smite it later, reject it later, etc, and then ask for forgiveness at a later time. His only defense was that a 'true Christian' would never do that.

What is yours?

You're mixing ideas here. For a useful discussion you need to break this down a bit, and separate out for example what is in the text and what your general thoughts about some more or less related notions are. It's the lack of that separation that makes these discussions confusing and circular, I think. You start off with some short quote from the bible but then it quickly becomes evident that what you are asking to be clarified is a whole load of other stuff that you think about, tangential to the initial point. If you want to actually address the point first you need to present all of the directly relevant text and explain what it is about the text that you find confusing, and not what you find confusing about your own thoughts. That would be a good starting point.
 
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cvanwey

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....................................what if, what if, what if, what if. Anyone can play the 'What if' game, cvanway.

One 'what if' question, followed by an answer to it's own question, or explanation, is hardly anything to get into a twist over. And further, it's 'cvanwey'. You've done this a few times now ;) I would think, since you have followed me so intently over these past couple of years, you would at least get my name-handle right?

And I see that you play it, in ignorant style for the most part since you choose to remain hermeneutically aloof and uninformed, much much more than you should.

So, no one here should take you seriously since your whole lack of adequate praxis promotes confusion for everyone.

And I don't appreciate any of that in the least! Ignorance isn't bliss. So, stop being ignorant and stop promoting it where Christianity is concerned.

Remember what I told you long ago? :) When one has no rebuttal, they likely adhere to 3 types of responses:

1. commit an ad hominem(s)
2. do not respond to the inquiry
3. change the subject

How many of these did you perform in this post response alone?


Good day!

Judging from your past history, I doubt this is the last we will be seeing of you in this thread.?.?.? Remains to be seen...

But the 'what if' remains on the table to address, if you should happen to feel the need to actually productively engage.

Even a 'pharisee-like' individual can have a later change in heart. And if so, looks like they are hosed, and maybe should not bother. God's tolerance for ultimate forgiveness has it's limits.
 
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miknik5

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I'm asking you again, point/blank, because you never answered. What you responded with, I addressed in post #420.

What is [your] take on Matthew 12:32? What do [you] interpret it to mean? You know my conclusion. What is yours, and why?

In context sir, the snippet which you provided is clearly understood and you should not need clarification from anybody

24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This man doth not cast out demons, but by Beelzebub the prince of the demons.

25 And knowing their thoughts he said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 and if Satan casteth out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then shall his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges.

28 But if I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.

29 Or how can one enter into the house of the strong [man,] and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong [man]? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me, and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

31 Therefore I say unto you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in that which is to come.
 
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