Ask God for Me

[Oncedeceived]

No. It is unconvincing to me. I don't disregard anything out of hand like you are suggesting. It took me two years or so to deconvert and it was an unwilling and emotionally painful process. So, no I did not just disregard evidence I investigated the evidence and found it unconvincing.

You continually say that but never will answer specific questions about it. Tell me, what evidence convinces you that the information within a cell is not evidence for the intelligence of God?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Indeed. I left the faith reluctantly perhaps even unwillingly. I left my family and friends dismayed. I lost some of those friends. This was not something I chose. It's what I had to do to maintain my integrity.

What was so convincing that you just had to give it up?

 

[miknik5]

Do you just think that people should believe you when you say something?

Why do you believe God exists?

Because I had a hit over the head conversion sir...and no one taught me the GOSPEL...but GOD...

I was in the quiet of my home, on maternity leave, when the wind blew...

 

[Oncedeceived]

I just said that one does not choose to believe or not. Either the evidence is convincing or it is not. Either your god can provide that or it cannot.

No. I cannot choose to believe that which I'm convinced of. I cannot choose to disbelieve that which is convincing.

Ok, so I'll ask you too, what evidence convinces you that information in a cell is not intelligence of God?

 

[miknik5]

Do you just think that people should believe you when you say something?

Why do you believe God exists?

And no, sir...I don´t believe that people HAVE to believe me...

But I know what I know...and I know who I learned it from...and because I know what I know, and who I learned it from, I will speak up to anyone and everyone who speaks against the TRUTH...

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

So what evidence did you determine falsified the teleological argument?

Which one? Basically what are the criteria for design? No one really knows and there is no way to tell without comparing to another universe which we don't have.

George Smith said this:

Now consider the idea that nature itself is the product of design. How could this be demonstrated? Nature… provides the basis of comparison by which we distinguish between designed objects and natural objects. We are able to infer the presence of design only to the extent that the characteristics of an object differ from natural characteristics. Therefore, to claim that nature as a whole was designed is to destroy the basis by which we differentiate between artifacts and natural objects

 

[Tinker Grey]

Do you still believe even the slightest that HE is who HE says HE is?

He doesn't say anything. I don't believe he exists. Stop asking questions that imply otherwise.

 

[Tinker Grey]

What was so convincing that you just had to give it up?

It wasn't what convinced. It was the examination of what I believed that showed me that what I believed was without basis. That is to say, the examination of the purported evidence lead to me being unconvinced.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I think I messed up this post I will try again.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

And no, sir...I don´t believe that people HAVE to believe me...

But I know what I know...and I know who I learned it from...and because I know what I know, and who I learned it from, I will speak up to anyone and everyone who speaks against the TRUTH...

Can you tell us why you believe God exists? You are just asserting He does, what are your reasons?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Because I had a hit over the head conversion sir...and no one taught me the GOSPEL...but GOD...

I was in the quiet of my home, on maternity leave, when the wind blew...

Ok, thanks.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

No. What he has said is that he determined that previous "events" weren't God speaking. You are being challenged to provide something by asking God that would be conclusive.

You can't just say that he would just reject it. That's weak sauce.

As Christians, it's not our responsibility to get God to cough up whatever miraculous hair-ball some individual thinks God should cough up.

And besides, if my hermeneutical understanding about Christianity is that God isn't looking to dole out signs left and right to every John who demands one, then why would I waste my time in prayer that God would fulfill some oddball request by a person who wants what most of the rest of us have never had? Why should I think that person is so EXTRA-special?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I never said we need to know everything about something before belief. We should not believe the best explanation we should believe the best explanation supported by sufficient evidence.

I'm having a hard time following your line of thought here. You seem to just be spitting out whatever comes to mind without actually knowing what you're saying. If you did know what you're saying, and if you were virtuous, you'd share some robust academically refined sources with us that you think are substantial and which back your own point of view about things like epistemology, truth (metaphysics), and/or science and the philosophy of science.

But no, what you do instead is keep showing up and repeating the same one sentence denials without any sourcing to show 'your work' in your thinking. And one, such as me, begins to wonder 'why'? Do you have an agenda here? What's with all of the constant pounding upon us?

We can't give you what you want, so why are you here?

I am open to it but give me sufficient evidence to believe that they knew and not just believed.

No, you're not open to it, because I can see by this very response here that you've either just misunderstood what I said, or you're ignoring it and ARE instead just attempting to scuttle the potency of what I've just said.

Again, I am open to that being the case. But why should I believe it is the case? Why is I don't know not a valid answer?

I'm beginning to wonder what it is that you think you do know.

Maybe, if I have time.

No, just forget it! You seem to prefer ignorance, I think.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I'm having a hard time following your line of thought here. You seem to just be spitting out whatever comes to mind without actually knowing what you're saying. If you did know what you're saying, and if you were virtuous, you'd share some robust academically refined sources with us that you think are substantial and which back your own point of view about things like epistemology, truth (metaphysics), and/or science and the philosophy of science.

But no, what you do instead is keep showing up and repeating the same one sentence denials without any sourcing to show 'your work' in your thinking. And one, such as me, begins to wonder 'why'? Do you have an agenda here? What's with all of the constant pounding upon us?

We can't give you what you want, so why are you here?


No, you're not open to it, because I can see by this very response here that you've either just misunderstood what I said, or you're ignoring it and ARE instead just attempting to scuttle the potency of what I've just said.

I'm beginning to wonder what it is that you think you do know.

No, just forget it! You seem to prefer ignorance, I think.

Ok, Stay safe.

 

[miknik5]

Can you tell us why you believe God exists? You are just asserting He does, what are your reasons?

I told you my reasons. Can you now answer me one question regarding the events in your life which made you come to the conclusion that no, it wasn´t GOD speaking to you after all.

Did you, at one time believe that a spirit was indeed speaking to you? And during that time, did you think it was the ONE and ONLY GOD and FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST?

And what occurred that made you change your mind?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Ok, Stay safe.

You too.

 

[miknik5]

I have done this many times when I was a christian. I begged with tears for god to show me he is real. I guess God wanted me to be an atheist becasue he never revealed himself in a concrete way to me in 18 years of being a christian.

Why did you do that? Do you realize that GOD does not have to validate our faith based on our lower fleshly senses? And anyone who thinks that GOD needs to do this, should come to the truth that this is NOT pure and mature faith to begin with...

We are supposed to walk by faith sir...not by sight.
You would have done better to wash your face, persevere in your faith...by faith sir...and not by sight...

 

[miknik5]

Mr Clizby,

I don´t want to, but I will, go through 33 pages to find the post where you might have alluded to this...
I am finding that I might stop and ask you questions along the way.
I hope you won´t mind.

Further, you do not have to respond if you do not want to...

 

[miknik5]

To be fair, if God did 'show himself' to you in a concrete way, as you put it, how can you be sure it was really God? What if it was a hallucination, or perhaps a coincidence? Maybe someone is pulling a prank on you?

You should really stop to consider how would a real, honest-to-goodness God show himself to a human, and what the emotional and possible physical ramifications would be. Sure, people in the past had divine revelations from God, but perhaps they were more accustomed to it as in the olden biblical days spiritual intervention was considered a 'norm'--something that happened since the beginning of humankind. Nowadays, that kind of divine intervention is the stuff of mythos; I wonder if we could even psychologically handle such a startling event, personally.

The ´ramifications´ would be a cut to the heart, knee-buckling revelation of the TRUTH of the GOSPEL

 

[miknik5]

Yes, assuming there IS a way to convince you. It's also entirely possible that you've already in the back of your mind decided that you cannot possibly believe in God, and are trying to find something that will change your mind--despite no such thing existing.



When you ask for proof of God, you are in essence asking him to reveal himself--since anything but some kind of spiritual intervention would likely not satisfy you. I don't necessarily mean a giant holy spirit crashing into your house in a blinding light with angel horns.



Refer to my previous points.



There's a long combination of reasons I feel that way. For one, I have had many strange interactions with God; so many that to label it all a 'coincidence' would place me in such a low margin of probability that it shouldn't have even happened. Or there's the fact that we now know that Jesus did in fact exist and was executed by Pontius Pilate. There's the interesting history of religion itself that intrigues me, along with testimonies referring to practices in the occult or spiritual divination. There's the rich history behind chrisitianity and judaism that never seems to reach the light of day, filled with so many things that form a bigger picture about God and monotheism's effect on humanity; and, lastly, there's naturalism. The idea that according to the natural laws of the world, no matter how you dice it, we exist only to survive, breed, and create generation after generation; if forming social bonds gets the job done, so be it. If murder or atrocities is more fitting, then it's done. Acting only on what evolution has gifted us with and a cocktail of chemicals in our bodies that give us 'emotions'. That at the end of the day, anything done for the sake of the pursuit of happiness or altruism is an illusion meant to create meaning past what nature has already decided for us.

Those are, of course, just a few.

And Philip said, Show us the FATHER and it will suffice...comes to mind....