Demons and Christianity

[Radagast]

Sounds like a scene from a B grade movie.

I was cribbing form The Screwtape Letters.

As I, and others, have said, if you want a majority Christian viewpoint, read that.

Do you have any firsthand experience of this type of demonic temptation or do demons usually avoid you?

Now just have a bit of a think about the unfriendliness of that remark.

Did a demon whisper that in your ear, or are you just a not very nice person?

 

[[serious]]

I think he's talking about what E.E. "Doc" Smith called "a residuum of non-material malignancy against which all the physical weapons of all the universes would be completely impotent."

So like a voodoo bad juju kind of thing?

 

[Carl Emerson]

Here is another example...

I'm having lunch with my mum in a country town.

Half way through eating I feel a disturbance deep in my Spirit.

I stand up and say to my mum follow me somethings not right, I'm loosing my peace.

We walk outside and down the path - I sense exactly what direction it is coming from.

Sure enough I stop at the boundary and look, and the neighbour is divining for water...

 

[Occams Barber]

Now just have a bit of a think about the unfriendliness of that remark.

Did a demon whisper that in your ear, or are you just a not very nice person?

Demons may well have whispered in my ear however it isn't something I've been conscious of.

To go back to where this started:

Do you have any firsthand experience of this type of demonic temptation or do demons usually avoid you?
​

For the sake of discussion I have been consistently willing to accept the concept of demons. I have asked a number of questions in an attempt to understand how Christians understand demonic influence.

If you aren't sure about how to respond to this please say so. "I don't know" is a totally valid (even admirable) response.
OB

 

[Occams Barber]

Here is another example...

I'm having lunch with my mum in a country town.

Half way through eating I feel a disturbance deep in my Spirit.

I stand up and say to my mum follow me somethings not right, I'm loosing my peace.

We walk outside and down the path - I sense exactly what direction it is coming from.

Sure enough I stop at the boundary and look and the neighbour is divining for water...

Can you explain the significance of this story? I have no idea of what I should draw from it.

OB

 

[hedrick]

According to Pew Forum, 21% of U.S. Christians are mainline (liberal) Protestants. The percentage is lower in places like Africa, so "the Christian world at large" is probably pretty conservative.

Right, although in the US (and I think some other places), the Catholic church is effectively mainline, even though official doctrine isn't.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Deut 18:9-14 lists practices that are 'detestable' and spiritually dark.

Divination is among them.

There is a demonic spirit behind it.

 

[Radagast]

Right, although in the US (and I think some other places), the Catholic church is effectively mainline, even though official doctrine isn't.

The "mainline" concept doesn't really apply to Catholics.

Some are liberal, some are conservative, but all are officially committed to a bunch of conservative theology.

 

[Occams Barber]

Deut 18:9-14 lists practices that are 'detestable' and spiritually dark.

Divination is among them.

There is a demonic spirit behind it.

I have no idea how water divination works but the outcome is usually positive - it finds a supply of water.

Why is such an inoffensive outcome 'detestable' and 'spiritually dark'?

What is the negative consequence?
OB

 

[Carl Emerson]

We are not to converse with or seek help from the spirit world. Doing so establishes demonic bondages in your life and God calls us to freedom...

A 'positive outcome' is no justification for disobeying God's requirement to be dedicated to Him alone and not dabble in darkness.

A Spirit of divination was cast out in Acts 16:16.

 

[Occams Barber]

OK this was back in the late 70's and I will need to contact his son. This will take days rather than hours so be patient. Im not sure if Colin is still alive.

I would like to ask though, what difference will it make if I verify so that I know the effort will be worth while?

Isn't it more important for you to have evidence of God???

You can read my testimony here...

Jesus's Ministry

Carl
I know you're the eternal optimist but I'm not someone you're going to convert. I've been around too long and seen too many of the arguments to be even vaguely interested in the prospect of conversion.

When I asked you to get verification it was largely tongue in cheek. I know that the sort of material you're likely to come up with will be 'proof' in your eyes but will not be useful in the bigger world.

I'm not trying to convert you to atheism. Please stop trying to convert me to Christianity.

I'm willing to accept you as you are even though I believe you're wrong. Please do me the same courtesy.

OB

 

[Carl Emerson]

Correct me if I am wrong but I thought this was the Christian Apologetics forum - I dont think we need to apologise for stating what we believe.

You could find an atheists forum and discuss Christianity in safety if you would be more comfortable.

Ive been around a while as well - did you read my testimony thread?

Mutual respect I can live with, being gagged is a different issue.

By the way I can't convert anyone - He does that.

 

[Silmarien]

According to Pew Forum, 21% of U.S. Christians are mainline (liberal) Protestants. The percentage is lower in places like Africa, so "the Christian world at large" is probably pretty conservative.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to express in the following sentence.

I think this forum is still extremely conservative, even taking that into consideration, because of being predominantly American. There's stuff out there that isn't well represented here. I'm thinking of conservative theologians in Britain who would count as liberal by American standards, so... are they conservative or liberal when compared to the forum? Probably liberal.

So... they finally reopened the bars in New York?

OB

Eh? It's really not that hard to give a science fiction spin to the idea of demonic activity, which, if true, would make it as "natural" an occurrence as alien visitation would be. You can't really say that something has to be supernatural when it really doesn't. Come on, a bit of imagination!

 

[Radagast]

I think this forum is still extremely conservative, even taking that into consideration, because of being predominantly American.

Well, I'm saying the opposite, actually. The average African Christian, for example, would be shocked at how liberal this forum is. And Africans make up a big slice of global Christianity: see this map.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

There's also a bias in the population I'm sampling in this thread. I suspect that CFers lean towards the conservative end of the Christian spectrum. The CF pop is also predominately American. This means that the opinions I'm seeing here are predominantly vocal, conservative Christians with a culturally US viewpoint.


I'm a bit cautious about the alien/demon correlations you've mentioned. I don't see aliens as supernatural entities and even I would concede the possibility aliens exist somewhere although not necessarily hiding out on this planet. Aliens, if they are out there, are by definition natural life forms. I also include simple life like molds or bacteria under the general heading of aliens.

I concede that the popular conception of aliens is probably an intelligent being who flits around locally in a flying saucer but even this interpretation does not require they be supernatural. Demons on the other hand are definitely supernatural. What I'm saying is that belief in demons may not equate with belief in aliens.
OB

The "Conservative end of the Christian spectrum"? What does that even "mean"? Does it mean something like "...these are Christians who don't want anyone telling them how to interpret the Bible..."? What are conservative Christians conserving, really? And what are so-called "Liberal Christians" liberating themselves from, really?

I just find that in contrast to politics, this whole identification process when evaluating Christians is a bit vague, especially when considering the degree and kind to which any one of 'them' believes in the Diabolical.

And does it really matter that much? If the New Testament writers seem to express some level of more substantive belief in the 'demonic' over and above a mere mythic understanding of collaborative human social evil, then why is it surprising if various Christians today adopt at least some conceptual schema about the nature of diabolical powers that doesn't just deflate itself to the level of mythicism?

I for one am not a political 'conservative,' but by typical definition, I may still qualify as a moral or ethical "conservative." What I'm conserving, I don't quite know.

As for my theological beliefs, I'm an Existentialist who takes a more or less NEO-Evangelical approach to the bible and to the common, Trinitarian Christian faith, but in this existential approach, while I don't claim that I can 'know' that demons exist, I very much think I perceive a demonically structured political world in which we attempt to move and live: demons don't hide behind every bush, under every rock and in every nook and cranny. Rather, they're seemingly distributed ethereally throughout the world, mostly remaining imperceptible to us, yet looking for opportunities to influence what are to us, prima facie, like common, everyday political and psychological situations in human life.

So, maybe keep in mind that the way in which the substance of the topic of this thread is "seen" by Christians in various times and demographies isn't so much an American thing as it is a choice of where one thinks the epistemic nature of the Bible should lead one in making any substantive conclusions.

 

[Silmarien]

Well, I'm saying the opposite, actually. The average African Christian, for example, would be shocked at how liberal this forum is. And Africans make up a big slice of global Christianity: see this map.

Hmm, that is a fair point. I don't know all that much about African Christianity except that it leans quite socially conservative. Would it be more conservative than American Evangelical Protestantism? I was under the impression that aside from some of the native churches, it sprung out of Evangelical missionary activity.

My major concern with saying that the world leans more conservative than the United States would be the question of what Catholicism looks like globally.

The "Conservative end of the Christian spectrum"? What does that even "mean"? Does it mean something like "...these are Christians who don't want anyone telling them how to interpret the Bible..."? What are conservative Christians conserving, really? And what are so-called "Liberal Christians" liberating themselves from, really?

For the purposes of the forum, I would say that it comes down to inerrancy: you're a conservative if you accept it and a liberal if you don't. If you're an inerrantist, you probably have to accept the existence of demons, but if you're not, it could go either way.

I don't think this is a great definition of theological conservativism, by any means, since I would consider myself to be somewhat theologically conservative, and you are more so than I am, but compared to the forum at large, we're liberals.

 

[ChetSinger]

As I've said in another post I suspect the more liberal churches may be too embarrassed to openly admit to demon belief even though it does appear to be deeply buried in the Christian psyche.

I think it is indeed deeply buried, and one reason is that in the New Testament they are represented as sentient beings. In Matthew 8:28-34, for example, they have a conversation with Jesus that ends with them striking a bargain with him.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

For the purposes of the forum, I would say that it comes down to inerrancy: you're a conservative if you accept it and a liberal if you don't. If you're an inerrantist, you probably have to accept the existence of demons, but if you're not, it could go either way.

I don't think this is a great definition of theological conservativism, by any means, since I would consider myself to be somewhat theologically conservative, and you are more so than I am, but compared to the forum at large, we're liberals.

Well said, Sil!

 

[Radagast]

I don't know all that much about African Christianity except that it leans quite socially conservative. Would it be more conservative than American Evangelical Protestantism?

Have you been hiding under a rock or something?

The biggest issue in the Anglican community over the past few years, it seems to me, is the fact that African Anglicans are so much more conservative than American ones. This has led to the creation of GAFCON, and threatened to split the Anglican Communion.

Likewise the current split in the United Methodist Church (UMC) is driven by the fact that African Methodists are more conservative than the average American Methodist.

My major concern with saying that the world leans more conservative than the United States would be the question of what Catholicism looks like globally.

I know less about Catholics, I'm afraid.

 

[hedrick]

Hmm, that is a fair point. I don't know all that much about African Christianity except that it leans quite socially conservative. Would it be more conservative than American Evangelical Protestantism? I was under the impression that aside from some of the native churches, it sprung out of Evangelical missionary activity.

Evangelicals in the US have mellowed, whereas that doesn't seem to be the case in Africa. Reasons for that are beyond the reasonable scope of this thread.