Demons and Christianity

[Tinker Grey]

In many churches today demons are taught to be fallen angels.

Well, that's a nice service the church provides. After all, we wouldn't want demons to stay just demons. Let's hear it for self-improvement.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Well, that's a nice service the church provides. After all, we wouldn't want demons to stay just demons. Let's hear it for self-improvement.

No, let's hear it for "self-government." YAY !!!

 

[[serious]]

One of the many things which has surprised me about Christianity, since joining CF back in 2012, is the apparently widespread Christian belief in the existence of demons. Attributing various negative events and strange experiences to demonic activity is a regular occurrence in this Forum, leaving the impression that belief in demons is broadly accepted by Christians.

In a recent example, I came across an opinion that so-called ‘aliens’ were actually (probably) demons and that alien cults were likely to be demon inspired. This is only one of many instances where I've seen demonic activity described as the cause of a negative event.

I’d be interested in hearing informed Christian opinion on the concept of demons particularly as it relates to the following questions:

What is a demon?

Is belief in the actual (as opposed to metaphorical) existence of demons and demonic activity an across-the-board Christian belief or is it confined to certain denominations or Christian sub-groups?

How do Christians differentiate between things caused by demons and naturally (including human) caused events?​

Please note that I am not advancing a personal opinion for or against the existence of demons. I’m curious about how they are perceived by Christians.


OB

You are probably getting a bit of selection bias. I can see three viewpoints regarding demons:
1. Demons don't exist
2. Demons exist but do not routinely cause supernatural events on earth.
3. Demons exist and regularly impact events on earth.

I would guess that most Christians would fall into group 2, and would tend to side more with group 1 when it comes to attributing events to demonic forces.

The trouble getting an accurate read on it casually is two fold:
1. Those most likely to be vocal on the issue are those in group 3
2. casual polling would tend to conflate groups 2 and 3 (as in "do you believe in demons?")

Some weak indicators for my theory would be the rather ubiquitous scoffing at attempts to tie any particular event to demonic forces.

It should also be noted that there's an entire subset of beliefs that largely mirror each other, but with demographic shifts. If you look at ghosts, demons, aliens, etc. you find about half of people believe in them. However, regular church attendance has a positive correlation with belief in demons, and a negative correlation with belief in aliens. So another possible explanation is that about half of people believe in supernatural entities regardless of religion, but the specific way they view the supernatural is shaped by religious affiliation.

 

[cloudyday2]

Most historians (that I have read) agree that Jesus was primarily an exorcist, so it seems inconsistent for Christians to dismiss the notion as ancient superstition. Here is a quote about the beliefs of Jews at the time of Jesus.

There are indications that demons in popular Hebrew mythology were believed to come from the nether world. Various diseases and ailments were ascribed to them, particularly those affecting the brain and those of internal nature. Examples include catalepsy, headache, epilepsy and nightmares. There also existed a demon of blindness, "Shabriri" (lit. "dazzling glare") who rested on uncovered water at night and blinded those who drank from it.

Demons supposedly entered the body and caused the disease while overwhelming or "seizing" the victim. To cure such diseases, it was necessary to draw out the evil demons by certain incantations and talismanic performances, at which the Essenes excelled

Demon - Wikipedia

 

[Occams Barber]

Well, that's a nice service the church provides. After all, we wouldn't want demons to stay just demons. Let's hear it for self-improvement.

I finally got it. It took about 30 seconds before the penny dropped.

OB

 

[Hazelelponi]

I appreciate your reply TCB but, as I mentioned in the final para, I'm not here to argue for or against the existence of demons. Obviously as an atheist I'm unlikely to believe.

My interest is in how Christians see demons as part of an ongoing attempt at understanding Christianity.

OB

I believe in demons, that they are as much a fact of life as anything else we can see and touch, but I'm likely not as quick to jump to "ohhh, that's demons" as others may be..

I generally speaking rule out the natural and/or human before I consider the demonic...

But there is something about the demonic that can't be denied in the same breath. People can come at faith from one of two directions, they begin by believing in God and then realize the demomic also exists, or they begin by experiencing the (very real) demonic and know that by default, God must therefore exist.

 

[Hazelelponi]

...

 

[Occams Barber]

Don’t knock a good fence post. A properly fixed fence post is a thing of beauty.

You must be spending too many long, lonely days out in the paddock if the fenceposts are starting to look attractive.

(There's another potential line here about avoiding splinters but I just remembered we're on CF )

OB

 

[Occams Barber]

Hello! In many churches today demons are taught to be fallen angels. But to the Jews in the 2nd temple period and to the early church fathers they were something different: the disembodied spirits of dead men, specifically the nephilim. They were the forbidden offspring of fallen angels and human women, and when they died they were denied the grave along with other men because of their mixed parentage. They were sentenced to roam the earth without bodies, continuously hungry and thirsty, until the final judgment. Their fathers were sentenced to be chained in darkness in the underworld.

Multiple church fathers wrote of this including Justin Martyr, Athenagoras, Lactantius, and Commodianus. Given a little time I can find the references if you wish to read them yourself. And afaik it was the default Jewish belief of the time. Even Josephus, the famous Jewish historian, included it in "Antiquities of the Jews". So the belief was considered to be historical, not theological.

Thanks Chet.

I'm awarding you the Merit Badge for the most comprehensive answer to 'What is a demon?'. Your reply also matches up with some of the alternative possibilities mentioned by @topher694 early in the thread.

OB

 

[hedrick]

You are probably getting a bit of selection bias. I can see three viewpoints regarding demons:
1. Demons don't exist
2. Demons exist but do not routinely cause supernatural events on earth.
3. Demons exist and regularly impact events on earth.

There is another possibility: Demons aren't conscious entities, but represent suprapersonal evil. Even if it's not conscious, I don't think there's any question that there's an evil that's bigger than any individual. Maybe it's social, maybe it's supernatural, but it's there.

 

[Occams Barber]

Yes, it took a bit for me to put that together lol. Thanks for the appreciation of my reply, that’s very admirable.

The effort you put in was obvious and deserved recognition.

Forgive me, I’m not the greatest when it comes to explanations, but I am glad I answered at least something you asked. It’s difficult for me to place perspective when taking to a non-Christian.

Atheists are basically no different to Christians apart from a belief in God. Overall we probably tend to be a little more analytical.

Please allow me to address the issue of discernment. As a Christian, discernment comes from God and a certain level of it each to their own level of faith.

Can a person on their own accord use wrong judgement? Absolutely. But relying on God and His strength over our own, discernment from Him will never fail.

As Christians we heavily rely on our God as He knows and sees all things where we do not. I really hope you can understand how I’m trying to convey the two differences

Can I give you an example of what I mean? On a number of occasions I've read CF posts which have asked about seeing demons. The typical situation is someone seeing or hearing a presence, at night, either on going to sleep or on waking up. The reaction from other Christians has often been to confirm the demon and suggest prayer etc. as a means of eradicating its presence.

The problem is that these types of hallucination are a well know sleep disorder known as hypnogogic (waking up) and hypnopompic (going to sleep) hallucinations. Without knowing this it's easy to discern the problem as demons. Sometimes a little investigation can turn up a more simple answer. I think true discernment includes making the effort to investigate the possibility of natural causes.

OB

 

[Occams Barber]

There is another possibility: Demons aren't conscious entities, but represent suprapersonal evil. Even if it's not conscious, I don't think there's any question that there's an evil that's bigger than any individual. Maybe it's social, maybe it's supernatural, but it's there.

An interesting viewpoint but I must admit the idea of an evil bigger than any individual is not something I would subscribe to. Where possible I avoid using the word since it carries considerable Christian baggage including the concept of evil as some sort of abstract entity.

For me 'evil' is just a shorthand term for intentionally harmful behaviour.

OB

 

[Carl Emerson]

Reminds me of an incident back in the 70's when the local church was exploding in growth, and the Pastors were trying to deal with all sorts of behavioural issues which many claimed were demonic possession.

So the Pastor contacted a missionary - Ditmar Schernaman who had been active in Indonesia for 25 years with a history of effectively dealing with possession among the native folk.

So they flew him in and a dozen or so folk lined up at the Pastors office.

He took one look at them and said in His deep German voice "these people are not possessed - these people need to repent !! "

Forgive me if this is off track - sometimes I cant help myself...

 

[Occams Barber]

I would say that belief in demons is something of a majority view--the liberal churches that are more skeptical are the exception rather than the rule, and even there it's not that uncommon to find people who still take it literally. The difference would probably be whether demonic activity is discussed from the pulpit: I've heard sermons on quite literal spiritual warfare at the Eastern Orthodox church I visit, but never at an Episcopal or liberal Lutheran church.

The level of matter-of-fact acceptance of demons in this thread has surprised me although looking at the number of demon related CF posts I shouldn't be surprised. I think 2 posters may have leaned towards seeing demons as metaphorical.

One of the problems in trying to gauge overall Christian beliefs is that CF members are not a typical cross section. While we have no available data on our CF population it appears to be weighted towards the conservative end of the spectrum. Factor in an overwhelming American majority and the population may be a long way from being a representative sample of Christians generally.

As I've said in another post I suspect the more liberal churches may be too embarrassed to openly admit to demon belief even though it does appear to be deeply buried in the Christian psyche.

OB

 

[Carl Emerson]

The level of matter-of-fact acceptance of demons in this thread has surprised me although looking at the number of demon related CF posts I shouldn't be surprised. I think 2 posters may have leaned towards seeing demons as metaphorical.

One of the problems in trying to gauge overall Christian beliefs is that CF members are not a typical cross section. While we have no available data on our CF population it appears to be weighted towards the conservative end of the spectrum. Factor in an overwhelming American majority and the population may be a long way from being a representative sample of Christians generally.

As I've said in another post I suspect the more liberal churches may be too embarrassed to openly admit to demon belief even though it does appear to be deeply buried in the Christian psyche.

OB

This is not surprising given that Jesus openly dealt with them from day one of His ministry.

 

[Occams Barber]

Opinions vary. In my opinion the root of these differences lies in uncertainty about the nature of angels and demons. It's difficult since we are talking about beings that are magnitudes of order more powerful than human beings, so the idea that we can circumscribe their nature, powers, or behavior is ruled out from the get-go.

You seem to be saying that it isn't really possible to differentiate between natural events and those caused by demonic interference.

I think that's the starkest point that materialists miss: studying a spiritual being is not like studying a material being such as a platypus. Perhaps an ant could study (or control) a grain of sand, but in no way could it study or control an orangutan. We are the ant, and we oughtn't approach a grain of sand in the same way we approach an orangutan.

A materialist (presumably you also mean atheist) could never study a spiritual being since, from his/her point of view, spiritual beings only exist in the minds of believers. There is no point to be missed.

OB

 

[2PhiloVoid]

The effort you put in was obvious and deserved recognition.

Atheists are basically no different to Christians apart from a belief in God. Overall we probably tend to be a little more analytical.


Can I give you an example of what I mean? On a number of occasions I've read CF posts which have asked about seeing demons. The typical situation is someone seeing or hearing a presence, at night, either on going to sleep or on waking up. The reaction from other Christians has often been to confirm the demon and suggest prayer etc. as a means eradicating its presence.

The problem is that these types of hallucination are a well know sleep disorder known as hypnogogic (waking up) and hypnopompic (going to sleep) hallucinations. Without knowing this it's easy to discern the problem as demons. Sometimes a little investigation can turn up a more simple answer. I think true discernment means making the effort to investigate the possibility of natural causes.

OB

Just for the record, I've never seen a demon nor heard one squeak... and I DO investigate the possibility of natural causes where they're usually due. In fact, I assume natural causes to be the case in most instances since that's part and parcel of engaging the world and its phenomena scientifically and working in the mode of Methodological Naturalism.

As for demons themselves, I don't think their primary work is to get down on the individual level and possess every Tom, Rick and Nancy who happens to have a chemical imbalance transpiring within their brain matter. No, I think demons usually have bigger fish (and politics) to fry.

 

[hedrick]

One of the problems in trying to gauge overall Christian beliefs is that CF members are not a typical cross section. While we have no available data on our CF population it appears to be weighted towards the conservative end of the spectrum. Factor in an overwhelming American majority and the population may be a long way from being a representative sample of Christians generally.

This suggests that there is a certain amount of skepticism: Most American Christians Do Not Believe that Satan or the Holy Spirit Exist - Barna Group. Here's a survey of the American public as a whole: Belief in demons | QuickStats | The Association of Religion Data Archives.

This gives more information for specific Christian groups: U.S. Religious Landscape Survey: Religious Beliefs and Practices

But there's a range of Christian belief and practice even within specific groups such as Evangelicals. My guess is that the 1/3 of evangelicals who weren't sure about demons are also ones that don't attend church as often, and have other non-traditional beliefs.

You're right that CF tends to be conservative, but still, belief in literal demons is typical among conservative Protestants, but not necessarily mainline Christians or (speculating) Catholics.

 

[topher694]

Long response warning!

If you look at my last post you'll see I've added a PS wherein I attempt to explain that my interest is in what people actually believe

I think the best way to explain what I believe about how the demonic works is to give a real world example. This is a real story that I have direct knowledge of, only the names have been changed to protect the innocent:

There is a young man, married with young children that attended a church I am closely affiliated with for a long time. This young man's father abandoned him when he was young. Since then he has craved that father figure in his life which the pastor of this church filled that in many ways. This pastor went above and beyond for this young man and embraced the role.

However, this young man also had a tendency to lash out in rebellion from time to time. Eventually during one of these outbursts the young man decided that this pastor and the entire church was out to get him, got extremely angry and he and his family left. But leaving wasn’t enough. Then things got vindictive, especially on social media. I probably don’t have to elaborate further on that.

Well this young man also happened to be very enamored with the demonic. As we talked about prior, saw demons being responsible for much more than they probably were.

So I said all of that to setup this. One night in the midst of this situation this young man had a dream/vision/experience alone in his home. This is how he described it: Several demons came to him in his bedroom, held him down and tried to kill him. It almost worked, but he managed to fight them off. Here’s the kicker… The pastor who he once looked up to, but was now so angry at? Apparently that pastor used witchcraft to send those demons to kill him. How do I know this is what he believes? Because, shortly after he made a YouTube video describing the entire situation and posted it on social media.

So here is how *I* see the demonic in this situation. There were no demons sent to his room (scripturally there were many errors with that as well). Here we have young man who is angry and bitter at a pastor and enamored with the demonic. Would it be a surprise to anyone that if when young man fell asleep he might dream about these topics which are consuming his mind? Not unusual at all. It happens to all of us. It was a natural dream based on his current life situation, nothing more.

However, here is where I believe the demonic comes in. After this dream the demonic comes to push his buttons (fiery darts). The button of hurt from his father leaving. The button of bitterness at the perceived betrayal of his mentor. And the demonic uses that to convince him the dream is real and he was actually attacked… even though he wasn’t. This causes him to go on the internet and publicly accuse his former pastor of - for lack of a better term - attempted murder via demons. Now, the Bible says there are 6 things God hates and a 7th that is an abomination to Him. What is the abomination? One who sows discord among the brethren. What happened with this young man? Past hurts and misunderstandings were used as tools to nudge him into doing something that God hates and hurts not just individuals but the Church as a whole. Additionally the hurts and mistrust from his father leaving him have now been reinforced further and the stage is set for his next pastor to say the wrong thing to him and the whole process starts again… it usually gets worse as it goes.

Here’s where inner healing and deliverance comes in. In a nutshell, you identify the hurts and wounds of the past, especially the root issues. Sometimes they are obvious, sometimes less so. Then you lead them in forgiveness. That way when the demonic comes to push those buttons they find they are no longer there. It doesn’t work anymore. That’s a major over-simplification, clearly there is more to it than that, but that’s the idea.

Now I do believe that there are more unexplainable/supernatural things that can be attributed to the demonic, but that is far more rare and far less sensational than is usually described.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I seems that when I reply to the Barber my responses just don't cut it...