Saved by Whom?

[HARK!]

Grace, Greek Charis or plural Charites, Latin Gratia, in Greek religion, one of a group of goddesses of fertility.

Grace | Definition & Facts

Thalia (Grace)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In Greek mythology and religion, Thalia or Thaleia (/ˈθeɪlɪə/[1] or /θəˈlaɪə/[2]; Ancient Greek: Θάλεια Tháleia "the joyous, the abundance") was one of the three Charites, referred to as the Gratiae (Graces) within ancient Rome, along with her sisters Aglaea and Euphrosyne.[3] In art, they were usually depicted dancing in a circle.

Thalia (Grace) - Wikipedia

grace (n.)
late 12c., "God's unmerited favor, love, or help," from Old French grace "pardon, divine grace, mercy; favor, thanks; elegance, virtue" (12c., Modern French grâce), from Latin gratia "favor, esteem, regard; pleasing quality, good will, gratitude" (source of Italian grazia, Spanish gracia; in Church use translating Greek kharisma), from gratus "pleasing, agreeable," from PIE *gwreto-, suffixed form of root *gwere- (2) "to favor."

Sense of "virtue" is early 14c., that of "beauty of form or movement, pleasing quality" is mid-14c. In classical sense, "one of the three sister goddesses (Latin Gratiæ, Greek Kharites), bestowers of beauty and charm," it is first recorded in English 1579 in Spenser. In music, "an embellishment not essential to the melody or harmony," 1650s. As the name of the short prayer that is said before or after a meal (early 13c.; until 16c. usually graces) it has a sense of "gratitude." As a title of honor, c. 1500.

grace | Origin and meaning of grace by Online Etymology Dictionary

(CLV) Isa 43:11
I, I am Yahweh, And there is no Saviour apart from Me.

(CLV) Ex 23:13
You shall beware in all that I say to you. And the name of other elohim you shall not mention; let it not be heard coming out of your mouth.

 

[solid_core]

We are saved by God because of His grace.

 

[HARK!]

We are saved by God because of His grace.

I don't even like to use that word.

The first time it appears in Hebrew is in the story of Noah.

(CLV) Gn 6:8
Yet Noah, he found grace in the eyes of Yahweh.

Lexicon :: Strong's H2580 - chen
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. favour, grace, charm
   
   1. favour, grace, elegance
      
      
   2. favour, acceptance
   H2580 - chen - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (KJV)

 

[Not David]

Man, the whole Bible of the NT was in Greek. Like I said before, this is paganism accusations out of no reason.

 

[HARK!]

Man, the whole Bible of the NT was in Greek. Like I said before, this is paganism accusations out of no reason.

Pagan is Pagan. Why on earth did the translators adopt the name of Greek Pagan fertility goddess, and infuse that into our language instead of choosing the Hebrew word, or choosing the English word "favor?"

You can call it an accusation. I call it a matter of fact. As far as reason goes, there is always a reason. I'll leave that supposition up to the readers.

 

[solid_core]

I don't even like to use that word.

I think you may have some kind of OCD. You are seeing problems where there are none.

You are afraid to say "God", you are afraid to say "Jesus", now you do not like to say "grace"... what next? Wisdom (sophia)?

 

[HARK!]

I think you may have some kind of OCD. You are seeing problems where there are none.

Loving obedience to YHWH is not yet classified as a psychological disorder; but give the secularists time. I suppose that will be one of Satan's coming attacks on believers.


(CLV) Ex 23:13
You shall beware in all that I say to you. And the name of other elohim you shall not mention; let it not be heard coming out of your mouth.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

You know, if I was so pedantic about every single association we could find between paganism and the words we use today I might not say anything. Grace, as a concept goes beyond any Goddess worshiped and doesn't have a monopoly on the word.

This sort of association would leave us with few if anything to ourselves. If Pagans ever said or personified a Goddess or God with a particular name (as indeed Pagans did with many aspects of nature or emotion) then we can't talk about charity, we can't talk about Eros (sexual love), we can't talk about Earth (Gaia) or any number of Ideas that Pagans considered the gods to dwell over and rule.

Hark, you surrender too much power to Pagans. In fact why do you dare speak English? Speak Hebrew only, if you're so afraid of these associations.

 

[solid_core]

And now about days in week and months... all named after gods in English. How do you say dates in English?

Or, what about names like Mark, Martin and similar? Do you reject to call people with such names by their name?

What about planets? Do you ignore their names and just say "1st from the sun, 2nd from the sun..."? Oh and sun...

Your OCD can get worse and worse.

 

[HARK!]

You know, if I was so pedantic

Keep trying! I'm rooting for you Brother!

(CLV) Mt 5:48
You, then, shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.

every single association we could find between paganism and the words we use today I might not say anything

The amount of Pagan syncretism that has crept into Yahshua's message is quite disturbing; and many just accept it.

Grace, as a concept goes beyond any Goddess worshiped and doesn't have a monopoly on the word.

It goes far beyond this one Pagan goddess. Abstract Greek philosophy had already corrupted YHWH's message; before Yahshua came to correct its' Pagan grip on his people. The whole Western mindset is built on Greek philosophy to the point that trying to understand Hebrew from a Hebrew mindset is like starting over as a child.

This sort of association would leave us with few if anything to ourselves. If Pagans ever said or personified a Goddess or God with a particular name (as indeed Pagans did with many aspects of nature or emotion) then we can't talk about charity, we can't talk about Eros (sexual love), we can't talk about Earth (Gaia) or any number of Ideas that Pagans considered the gods to dwell over and rule.

Indeed our ancestors have let paganism permeate nearly every aspects of our culture. Do you condone this? Are you suggesting that we should just turn a blind eye to it, and accept it?

Hark, you surrender too much power to Pagans.

In fact I inadvertently, from birth, surrendered far too much power to Paganism. I've since committed to a lifestyle change that submits all to YHWH.

Join me.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Keep trying! I'm rooting for you Brother!

(CLV) Mt 5:48
You, then, shall be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.



The amount of Pagan syncretism that has crept into Yahshua's message is quite disturbing; and many just accept it.



It goes far beyond this one Pagan goddess. Abstract Greek philosophy had already corrupted YHWH's message; before Yahshua came to correct its' Pagan grip on his people. The whole Western mindset is built on Greek philosophy to the point that trying to understand Hebrew from a Hebrew mindset is like starting over as a child.




Indeed our ancestors have let paganism permeate nearly every aspects of our culture. Do you condone this? Are you suggesting that we should just turn a blind eye to it, and accept it?




In fact I inadvertently, from birth, surrendered far too much power to Paganism. I've since committed to a lifestyle change that submits all to YHWH.

Join me.

It depends on what you mean by surrendering to Paganism. Pagans weren't always wrong and neither was Greek Philosophy. But not event eh Apostles went around speaking Hebrew to everyone and insisting on Jewish terms for everything. As evidenced by the New Testament. Should I follow their example or yours?

 

[HARK!]

And now about days in week and months... all named after gods in English. How do you say dates in English?

Sick; isn't it? I have to convert my calendar to keep YHWH's appointed times, in a nation that supposedly trusts in him.

Or, what about names like Mark, Martin and similar? Do you reject to call people with such names by their name?

I believe that it is disrespectful to call people by a different name. I have a customer from Canada, whose name is Gabriel. When I speak to him I pronounce his name as if I'm speaking French. That is the way that this man who speaks impeccable English pronounced his name for me. Out of respect, I do my best to get the pronunciation correct.

What about planets? Do you ignore their names and just say "1st from the sun, 2nd from the sun..."? Oh and sun...

Fair question. Are the planets named after pagan gods; or are the Pagan gods named after the planets?

Your OCD can get worse and worse.

Again I don't have a psychological disorder. I have a love for YHWH.

Nothing stays the same. Your love is either growing; or it is dying.

My love for YHWH grows stronger every day.

 

[HARK!]

It depends on what you mean by surrendering to Paganism. Pagans weren't always wrong and neither was Greek Philosophy.

Say what?!?

But not event eh Apostles went around speaking Hebrew to everyone and insisting on Jewish terms for everything. As evidenced by the New Testament. Should I follow their example or yours?

You make some bold suppositions in absence of any autograph manuscripts.

Are you going so far as to say, in absence of anything but hearsay evidence, that the Apostles broke this commandment?:

(CLV) Ex 23:13
You shall beware in all that I say to you. And the name of other elohim you shall not mention; let it not be heard coming out of your mouth.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Say what?!?

Pagans were not always wrong. Do you care to contest this statement?

You make some bold suppositions in absence of any autograph manuscripts.

Are you going so far as to say, in absence of anything but hearsay evidence, that the Apostles broke this commandment?:

(CLV) Ex 23:13
You shall beware in all that I say to you. And the name of other elohim you shall not mention; let it not be heard coming out of your mouth.

If I make bold assumptions based on the text we have, what does that say about you and the assumptions you make? You don't even have a text to base any of this on. I'm basing my beliefs on a text that I have believed has been reliably transferred to us to the current day. That God was not powerless to preserve the Bible. If it has been substantially corrupted to the point where Hebrew terms were deliberately removed (while others were kept in and even explained) then what can you say about the text that is genuine? All of it is thrown into question and must be tossed out. Do believe the New Testament is largely unreliable a witness? This isn't the first time you've suggested this.

Quoting Exodus as if we can apply your interpretation of it to the Apostles is not a good argument. Given that we have the what the Apostles wrote in Greek, it shows you that the Apostles themselves didn't have this particular hang up that you do. In fact, I'm pretty sure the ancient Jews in general, whose writings we have in the Greek, didn't have this concern the modern day Sacred namers do. I'm unaware of the Tetragrammaton being in any Greek Jewish text. Or there being an aversion to terms like Kyrios. Now it would be up to you to demonstrate that the New Testament originally used these terms. Good luck as to that.

Mind you, I'm not the one who doubts the transmission of the scripture. I wonder how you can believe anything about the New Testament since it's all in the evil Greek language.

 

[HARK!]

Pagans were not always wrong. Do you care to contest this statement?

Paganism is wrong. Sure, he might be right when he boasts about how big of an evergreen shrub he can stuff through his doorway before the winter solstice; but YHWH still hates his Pagan rituals.

 

[HARK!]

If I make bold assumptions based on the text we have, what does that say about you and the assumptions you make? You don't even have a text to base any of this on.

I cited my sources in the OP.

 

[HARK!]

I'm basing my beliefs on a text that I have believed has been reliably transferred to us to the current day.

List of major textual variants in the New Testament - Wikipedia

 

[HARK!]

Do believe the New Testament is largely unreliable a witness? This isn't the first time you've suggested this.

Suggested what?

 

[HARK!]

Quoting Exodus as if we can apply your interpretation of it to the Apostles is not a good argument.

What is your interpretation of YHWH's word? I take it at face value.

 

[HARK!]

Given that we have the what the Apostles wrote in Greek, it shows you that the Apostles themselves didn't have this particular hang up that you do.

Again you're making assumptions in absence of first hand evidence.

Again, I ask; are you asserting that the Apostles broke YHWH's law?

(CLV) Ex 23:13
You shall beware in all that I say to you. And the name of other elohim you shall not mention; let it not be heard coming out of your mouth.

Deuteronomy 12:3
Tear down their altars, smash their sacred pillars, burn up their Asherah poles, cut down the idols of their gods, and wipe out their names from every place.

Joshua 23:7
So you are not to associate with these nations remaining among you. Do not call on the names of their gods or swear by them, and you must not serve them or bow down to them.

Psalm 16:4
Sorrows will multiply to those who chase other gods. I will not pour out their libations of blood, or speak their names with my lips.

Hosea 2:17
For I will remove from her lips the names of the Baals; no longer will their names be invoked.

Zechariah 13:2
And on that day, declares the LORD of Hosts, I will erase the names of the idols from the land, and they will no longer be remembered. I will also remove the prophets and the unclean spirit from the land.