Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[Der Alte]

You evidently have no clue what the purpose of a hyperbole is. And you have not “explained” anything, you have just copy and pasted the same long exhortations over and over again in an attempt to avoid answering any real questions.
A hyperbole is an EXAGGERATION meant to EMPHASIZE.
When the Bible says that an “aion” has an end or that there is more than one “aion” how is this exaggerating it’s endlessness? It is actually contradicting it so no it is not being used hyperbolically.

Perhaps you should review E. W. Bullinger's "Figures of Speech used in the Bible." He documented more than 200 figures of speech.
Figures of speech used in the Bible: : Bullinger, E. W. (Ethelbert William), 1837-1913 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
Your argument does not make sense. Don't you believe that "aion" means "age" and "sionios" means "age during" or some similar nonsense? How can an "aion" be "endless" if it has an end? If "aionios" never means eternal how can adding words to it or doubling it make it mean eternal?
I know you can produce a bunch of writers who say that "aion" never means "eternity" and "aion" never means "eternal. But "aion" means "eternity", "aionios" means "eternal" and "kolasis" means punishment. That is supported by no less authority that the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. When/if you can bring this much scholarship to the table let me know. I'm not interested in quotes from UR "writers" I won't dignify them by calling them "scholars."
.....Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, pg. 208, there is this footnote.

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abrham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
In the EOB Paul uses “αιονιον/aionon,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.​

In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionon" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.



​

 

[Der Alte]

Just one, but my fingers are not so adept to type well. I mispell! Big Deal!!!! I read your posts and reply to them! All the time!
BTW judging this matt slick guy (I don't even know what type of theology he has calvinist, arminianist, prentecostsal etc.) He just addresses truth in this issue.
While You, FL, ST.S, and Alove have to go find obscure translators and limited translations, and men who printed a newsletter with only 200 subscribers and then use 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th level uses of the word without following th e rules of greek that show when. one has to go to the second, third or Quaternary meaning.
These are things a 1st year student of Greek learn in the God awful grammar lessons.

And certain groups ignore such credible sources as the 1917 Jewish Publication Society English translation of the OT and the Eastern Greek Orthodox NT. And they totally reject BDB and BDAG.
OBTW the Greek grammar classes were not that bad especially if one had learned to speak some Greek before hand.

 

[ClementofA]

Six months in prison is a judgment. the death penalty is a judgment. Krisis is a condemning judgment.

So your view of Heb.9:27 is that everyone is going to receive a "condemning judgment"?

Once again you have failed to show a verse that says people can repent in the after life, especially in light of the account of Lazarus and th erich man.

That is your mantra along with some SDA here. Even though we have shown you folks verse after verse supporting universalism.

Gods hand is never impotent to save! But if He declared a limit to how long He will wait- then there is a limit! And He did! One human lifetime!

No scripture there, just human opinion.

If it is impossible for one in their human nature to do anything to please God, what makes you think they will desire to repent after?

The Bible.

Also why would anyone in the flesh wish to repent and live the Christian life with its denials, self sacrifice and humiliation of self if they can die and two weeks later say I am sorry?

Strawman.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

 

[Der Alte]

So your view of Heb.9:27 is that everyone is going to receive a "condemning judgment"?
That is your mantra along with some SDA here. Even though we have shown you folks verse after verse supporting universalism.
No scripture there, just human opinion.
The Bible.
Strawman.
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

The usual litany of out-of-context proof texts.

 

[ClementofA]

This is why aionios is translated "eternal" when referring to the time after time!

Where is Scripture supporting the view of "time after time"?

 

[agapelove]

Your argument does not make sense. Don't you believe that "aion" means "age" and "sionios" means "age during" or some similar nonsense? How can an "aion" be "endless" if it has an end? If "aionios" never means eternal how can adding words to it or doubling it make it mean eternal? I know you can produce a bunch of writers who say that "aion" never means "eternity" and "aion" never means "eternal. But "aion" means "eternity", "aionios" means "eternal" and "kolasis" means punishment.

Sorry but you have fully convinced me now that you have not been comprehending a word that anyone has been saying. None of my "pet writers" have ever claimed that "aion/aionios" will never mean eternal. I even clarified this in a previous post. It simply means an age and its duration can be determined by its accompanying time adverbs.

That is why in the Bible you always see time adverbs added to "aion" and "aionios" for example: μέλλοντι mellonti/to be about to (Ephesians 1:21), ἐπερχομένοις eperchomenois/coming (Ephesians 2:7), τέλη telē/the end (1 Corinthians 10:11)... just a few among many other examples.

If aion/aionios always meant eternity/eternal then there would be no need for the addition of any time adverbs.

If you consider ARISTOTLE a scholar then let's take a look at his usage of aion/aionios.

His famous sentence, "Life, an aion endless and eternal."

If he really agreed that aion meant eternity then why the need for redundancy? Shouldn't we already assume that eternity is endless and eternal?

Let's use our common sense here and agree that he was not saying: "Life, an eternity endless and eternal." but rather "Life, an age endless and eternal."

Here are some other scholars:

The oldest lexicographer, Hesychius, (A. D. 400-600,) defines aión thus: "The life of man, the time of life."

Theodoret(9) (A. D. 300-400) "Aión is not any existing thing, but an interval denoting time, sometimes infinite when spoken of God, sometimes proportioned to the duration of the creation, and sometimes to the life of man."

John of Damascus (A. D. 750,) says, "1, The life of every man is called aión. . . . 3, The whole duration or life of this world is called aión. 4, The life after the resurrection is called 'the aión to come.' "

 

[ClementofA]

I did refute it! By showing you the etymology of the use of the word in greek history.

Where & how does it refute anything i posted?

Kolasis only appears twice in Scripture. In the epistle of John it definitely refers to punishment and in Matt.

Where's the proof of that?

Even if true, it's irrelevant, since punishment can be corrective.

I have no issue with the translation "punishment" in Matthew.

YOu wish to make it mean a corrective type of punishment when Jesus who is the author of all languages should have used the word "paideia" Which is training or correcting by harshness!

You shouldn't assume Greek has only one word that can include the idea of correction. In English, for example, look at all the words similar to or synonymous with "correction":

Thesaurus results for CORRECTION


Paideia is used in the NT for the instruction, training & discipline of children, namely those of God.

"Definition...the rearing of a child, training, discipline" (NAS concordance).

OTOH if someone breaks into the home where those children are being trained & disciplined, and then is arrested and taken to a rehabilitative institution, he is being punished for his own good. The people being punished in Matthew 25 are not children being taught & disciplined, but criminals about to be punished. So Jesus chose the correct word there.

Another way universalists may answer your point is in the following thread, where virtually the exact same point as yours was raised by the OP. Here are IMO two of the best responses (among several other UR approaches there tackling the issue):

"This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.(I Tim 1:18-20 ESV)"

"The English “may learn” is in the active voice, but the Greek word is in the passive voice, which in its lexical form is none other than “παιδευω” (or “paideuo” as you write it). “that they may be chastised not to blaspheme”. Rotherham’s translation puts it this way, "that they may be taught by discipline not to be defaming. To be taught by discipline is to be chastised."

"Now it’s true that Hymenaeus and Alexander were once believers, but they made shipwreck of their faith! There were no longer believers. Until Paul handed them over to Satan for chastisement, they were doubtless impenitent as well. They were blaspheming!"

"Though unbelievers whom God sends to hell may be impenitent, they will become penitent after they are chastised, just as Paul expected Hymenaeus and Alexander to be after they received their chastisement from Satan."

Words Meaning "Chastisement" Not Used of the Impenitent

"Nothing there indicates they are repentant yet; and what is there indicates they are not only unreprentant but shipwrecked as thoroughly (if not moreso) as in Hebrews 10, which is also about ex-believers (not about pre-Christian unbelievers) as you are very well aware."

"(Similarly, Paul hands over the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy (who might actually be either Alexander or Hymaneous) to Satan for the destruction of his flesh in 1 Cor 6, with an expectation that the SSG’s spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord to come. Not before the coming of the day of the Lord, but in the day of the Lord: the salvation then is contrasted to his punishment now.)"

"Rev 3:19 uses the same term in regard to people who, although nominally Christian, are still clearly being impenitent about their sins or Christ wouldn’t be threatening them with vomiting them out of His mouth! “Be zealous then AND REPENT!!” "

"Paul exhorts fathers to be nurturing their children in the discipline (same term) and the admonition of the Lord. (Eph 6:4) The term admonition {nouthesia} is used where people are impenitently and even gravely sinning, such as in Paul’s instructions at Titus 3:13, “A sectarian man, after one and a second admonition, refuse, being aware that such a one has turned himself out, and is sinning, being self-condemned.” "

"And in Heb 12, where you started with all this in another thread, the context of discipline is not merely that of training or exercise, but of punishment, as the Hebraist’s own reference to the Proverb indicates. (The same term for “exposing” is used here, too, as in Rev 3:19 where Christ warns impenitent Christians to repent or be vomited from His mouth. And the term for “scourging” is the same as just previously in 11:36 where the Hebrew prophets and fathers were scourged by unbelievers among the Jews, in punishment.)"

"Your challenge was met and answered (by Paidion, quite appropriately) out of the gate; and now I’ve added to it."

"Meanwhile, your own attempt elsewhere to argue that {kolasis} means the same at both Matt 25 and 1 John 4, resulted in you eventually arguing that the term when used at 1 John 4 has nothing to do with hopeless punishment or even punishment from God at all, while still insisting that the same meaning must be applied at Matt 25 as at 1 John 4. (In order to avoid discussing the actual narrative and thematic contexts of the judgment there, which I went to the trouble to post in detail.)"

"So you’re running out of words for punishment. Time to give up on {paid-} and move on to {timo-} without bothering to check around on site for what people have argued about it first. (And without bothering to check what the Hebraist’s OT citations involved, for checking what he meant by {timoria}.)"

Words Meaning "Chastisement" Not Used of the Impenitent

You have not defended you r use of kolasis in Matt. 25:46 as meaning correction at all!

Evidently some agree with you & others don't. Here's the evidence:

Matthew 25:46
Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46
City-Data Forum - View Single Post - What does Matthew 25:46 mean?
What does Matthew 25:46 mean? (Gomorrah, Gospel, unpardonable, hell) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum
Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?
Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?
An argument for "eternal conscious torment"
Matthew 25:46 paralllel argument with Rom 5 19:
Universalist Understanding?

KOLASIS:
Are You of Israel?

All you proved is that at one time in greek history it was a pruning of a tree for greater harvest! And then I showed you it grew to mean punishment (not in a corrective but punitive sense)

Among many other things my post pointed out that even after Christ it - still - was being used of corrective punishment, i.e. in the works of Clement of Alexandria.

 

[FineLinen]

This monstrosity of a post still fails to address anything I have asked.

Please explain how and why "eternity/forever" does not and can not fit into the verses I have provided. Is there more than one eternity? Your sources claim aionon means without beginning or end, yet clearly there are Bible verses that contradict this. Care to explain?

Dear Agape: Your one serious problem is you are not aware of the remarkable document below > > >

Welcome to the Jewish Encyclopedia

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Please note:

1. Hell, like paradise, was created by God & is "very good".

2. A fiery stream falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna.

3. It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death.

4. To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners.

5. There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes.

6. All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them. The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell.

7. The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God .

8. The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment,

9. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners.

10. Hell awaits one who indulges in unseemly speech ; who always follows the advice of his wife; who instructs an unworthy pupil; who turns away from the Torah.

11. On the other hand, there are merits that preserve man from going to hell; philanthropy, fasting, visiting the sick, and eating the three meals on the Sabbath.

12. Three classes of men do not see the face of hell: those that live in penury, those suffering with intestinal catarrh, and those that are pressed by their creditors.

 

[ClementofA]

And revelation 143 shows people being tortured by God (we will use your lenient ages to ages) Seems like Gods love and daily renewing mercy are missing there.

Job was tortured by God. I wonder how well we would have fared under the same tortures. Would you have lost faith in Love Omnipotent's love?

Speaking of tortures, how about every time a woman gives birth.

Or how about the endless tortures believing Inquisitionist torturers?

Or the flood God sent. I wonder how many babies drowned or starved to death.

"Moreover, he was not only a man of extraordinary personal holiness, piety, and charity, but a martyr as well: Brutally tortured during the Decian persecution at the age of sixty-six, he never recovered, but slowly withered away over a period of three years. He was, in short, among the greatest of the Church Fathers and the most illustrious of the saints, and yet, disgracefully, official church tradition—East and West—commemorates him as neither."

Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

 

[Der Alte]

...None of my "pet writers" have ever claimed that "aion/aionios" will never mean eternal. I even clarified this in a previous post. It simply means an age and its duration can be determined by its accompanying time adverbs.
That is why in the Bible you always see time adverbs added to "aion" and "aionios" for example: μέλλοντι mellonti/to be about to (Ephesians 1:21), ἐπερχομένοις eperchomenois/coming (Ephesians 2:7), τέλη telē/the end (1 Corinthians 10:11)... just a few among many other examples.
The oldest lexicographer, Hesychius, (A. D. 400-600,) defines aión thus: "The life of man, the time of life."

Greek grammar is not the same as English grammar. Quote something like this from an accredited Greek grammar e.g. Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Dan Wallace, then I might buy it. As it is, just amateurish speculation trying to make Greek support one's assumptions/presuppositions.

Theodoret(9) (A. D. 300-400) "Aión is not any existing thing, but an interval denoting time, sometimes infinite when spoken of God, sometimes proportioned to the duration of the creation, and sometimes to the life of man."
John of Damascus (A. D. 750,) says, "1, The life of every man is called aión. . . . 3, The whole duration or life of this world is called aión. 4, The life after the resurrection is called 'the aión to come.' "

Standard 2d-3d hand copy paste from Ur-is-us.com. The proper way to cite sources includes the title and paragraph/section number etc. For example, see this quote from Origen's Commentary on the gospel of John. Isn't Origen the poster boy for UR?

Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen[1]
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20[2] Pg. 23
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.[3] Pg. 80
(291) But neither is it possible here to understand the statement “He who reaps receives a reward, and gathers fruit for eternal life” to have reference to the same things as the statement, “He who sows in the flesh, of the flesh shall reap corruption, and he who sows in the spirit, of the spirit will reap eternal life.”
(292) For according to the Apostle’s words, it is the same person who sows and reaps, whether in the flesh or in the spirit, and on this basis reaps either corruption or eternal life. But according to the present words, it is one who sows and another who reaps.[4] Pg 128
(408) These words prove that death is capable of being tasted, “There are some of those standing here who will not taste death,” etc., and the following prove that it can be seen, “If anyone shall keep my word, he will not see death forever.”425
(409) Now he who utters words contrary to the words of eternal life tastes death; and not only does he taste it, but he is also filled with death as food.[5] Pg. 289
[1] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.​

 

[ClementofA]

The usual litany of out-of-context proof texts.

If you think there's something in the context that makes you an unbeliever, feel free to share!

Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times. He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas" not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used "oi polloi"/"the many" ten times where it clearly does not mean "all."
In one verse Rom 12:4 Paul used both “the many” and “all” in the same verse.
Romans 12:4, Romans 15:22, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13

Here's what you've never answered:

Lest the unwary be misled by heterodox doctrine.
Here it is being presented that "the many" in Rom 5:19 really means "all."
Paul used the word "pollus"/"many" 71 times. He used the word "pas"/"all" 375 times When Paul wanted to say “all” he used "pas" not "pollus"/”many.”
Paul used "oi polloi"/"the many" ten times where it clearly does not mean "all."
In one verse Paul used both "all" and "pollus" in the same verse, Rom 12:4.
Romans 12:4, Romans 15:22, 1 Corinthians 10:17, 1 Corinthians 10:33, 2 Corinthians 2:17, 2 Corinthians 8:15, Ephesians 2:4, Colossians 4:13, 1 Timothy 3:13

Yep did you notice the "MANY" does not mean the "ALL"? Again did you know that the "MANY" are the "JUST"?

The "many" (v.19a) are not the "just". They are those who "were constituted sinners" (v.19a) "through one offense" (v.19a), i.e. Adam's sin. That "many" is, therefore, all mankind with the exception of Christ. Hence "many", not "all" mankind.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Verse 19 uses the word "many" instead of "all" as in verse 18. Not all men have been "constituted sinners" (v.19), Christ being an obvious exception. Some would also include as exceptions those humans who have been this moment conceived, preborn babies, infants, etc. So, therefore, Paul says "many" in verse 19 rather than "all".

Rom.5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL MEN, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL MEN.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man THE MANY were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man THE MANY will be made righteous.

If Paul didn't wish to parallel both occurrences of "THE MANY" in verse 19, then he would have said "some" or "few" instead of "THE MANY" in the second occurrence. Clearly he was teaching by the parallel of two occurrences of "THE MANY" (v.19) that all those who "were made sinners" will "be made righteous".

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment. Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever [or annihilated for eternity].

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11). For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

"Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

"Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108...

108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

"The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

"It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it." (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

 

[agapelove]

Dear Agape: Your one serious problem is you are not aware of the remarkable document below > > >

Welcome to the Jewish Encyclopedia

GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Please note:

1. Hell, like paradise, was created by God & is "very good".

2. A fiery stream falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna.

3. It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death.

4. To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners.

5. There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes.

6. All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them. The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell.

7. The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God .

8. The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment,

9. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners.

10. Hell awaits one who indulges in unseemly speech ; who always follows the advice of his wife; who instructs an unworthy pupil; who turns away from the Torah.

11. On the other hand, there are merits that preserve man from going to hell; philanthropy, fasting, visiting the sick, and eating the three meals on the Sabbath.

12. Three classes of men do not see the face of hell: those that live in penury, those suffering with intestinal catarrh, and those that are pressed by their creditors.

This document, like hell, is "very good" indeed.

 

[agapelove]

Greek grammar is not the same as English grammar. Quote something like this from an accredited Greek grammar e.g. Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, Dan Wallace, then I might buy it. As it is, just amateurish speculation trying to make Greek support one's assumptions/presuppositions.

I prefer the Bible over "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics".

You have yet to provide any explanation for any of the verses I've shared with you besides your hyperbole cop-out (which has been proven obsolete) so I will just assume you have none.

 

[Der Alte]

Dear Agape: Your one serious problem is you are not aware of the remarkable document below > > Welcome to the Jewish Encyclopedia
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Please note:
1. Hell, like paradise, was created by God & is "very good".
2. A fiery stream falls upon the head of the sinner in Gehenna.
3. It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death.
4. To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners.
5. There are three categories of men; the wholly pious and the arch-sinners are not purified, but only those between these two classes.
6. All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them. The felicity of the pious in paradise excites the wrath of the sinners who behold it when they come from hell.
7. The fire of Gehenna does not touch the Jewish sinners because they confess their sins before the gates of hell and return to God .
8. The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment,
9. There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners.
10. Hell awaits one who indulges in unseemly speech ; who always follows the advice of his wife; who instructs an unworthy pupil; who turns away from the Torah.
11. On the other hand, there are merits that preserve man from going to hell; philanthropy, fasting, visiting the sick, and eating the three meals on the Sabbath.
12. Three classes of men do not see the face of hell: those that live in penury, those suffering with intestinal catarrh, and those that are pressed by their creditors.

Now for a less subjective quote.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below, among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, hades and gehenna in the LXX and NT.
…..There were different groups within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and there were different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. That there were differing beliefs does not rebut, refute, change or disprove anything in this post.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​

[Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT supposed bias of modern Christian translators. DA]

(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

 

[agapelove]

Now for a less subjective quote.
…..According to three irrefutable Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud, quoted below,

I would be careful calling the Jewish Encyclopedia "irrefutable" considering we all just saw what kind of material their website is producing.

 

[Der Alte]

I prefer the Bible over "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics".
You have yet to provide any explanation for any of the verses I've shared with you besides your hyperbole cop-out (which has been proven obsolete) so I will just assume you have none.

Correction you believe a a cherry picked version which supports your assumptions/presuppositions.
If you are going to try to make arguments that involve Greek grammar you need to have a grammar rather than a cherry picked version.
Sure I have provided proof but you will not acknowledge it. "Aion" means "eternity" and "aionios" means "eternal" any other use is a figure of speech. Much like in English "I went to a restaurant today and had to wait in line for an eternity." Ooops the English word "eternity" does not mean everlasting, endless, etc. because I used it to describe a "long wait." That is UR Greek Grammar 101.

 

[Der Alte]

I would be careful calling the Jewish Encyclopedia "irrefutable" considering we all just saw what kind of material their website is producing.

Irrelevant. Irrefutable does not mean that everything the Jews believed was correct by someone's opinion today. The Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, which I quoted, are irrefutable sources for the historical beliefs and practices of the Jews, including before and during the time of Jesus. Can you provide any kind of credible, verifiable, historical evidence which disproves anything I posted?

 

[agapelove]

Irrelevant. Irrefutable does not mean that everything the Jews believed was correct by someone's opinion today. The Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, which I quoted, are irrefutable sources for the historical beliefs and practices of the Jews, including before and during the time of Jesus. Can you provide any kind of credible, verifiable, historical evidence which disproves anything I posted?

Yes I can actually and I have. My proof lies within the book of Jeremiah but if opening your Bible is too much work for you then you can refer to my previous posts here, here and here.

Correction you believe a a cherry picked version which supports your assumptions/presuppositions.
If you are going to try to make arguments that involve Greek grammar you need to have a grammar rather than a cherry picked version.
Sure I have provided proof but you will not acknowledge it. "Aion" means "eternity" and "aionios" means "eternal" any other use is a figure of speech. Much like in English "I went to a restaurant today and had to wait in line for an eternity." Ooops the English word "eternity" does not mean everlasting, endless, etc. because I used it to describe a "long wait." That is UR Greek Grammar 101.

Congratulations you learned how to use a hyperbole.

Now would you care to explain how the following verse is a hyperbole as well? I have done you the courtesy of inserting "eternity" where aeon is.

Matthew 13:39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the eternity, and the harvesters are angels.

 

[Saint Steven]

If this torture lasts throughout eternity, then each unsaved person will suffer more than all the suffering of all the people that ever lived on earth. Think of it! Billions have suffered horrible pain for hours, days, weeks, months, and years, during the time they were alive. And yet, after they die, EVERY unsaved person will suffer more agony than all the suffering of the whole race PUT TOGETHER from Adam until now. This is so horrible, so frightful, that it is difficult for our minds to grasp. Except Satan himself, Pharaoh, Nero, and Hitler were among the most horrible killers of men this world has ever known. Yet, the doctrine of eternal torture makes Jesus a million times more vicious and vindictive than these three put together. You see, these brutal murderers killed their victims. Death brought sweet relief in a moment of time. However, that Man of Galilee, that Man whom we love, praise, and worship, that Man who taught that we should forgive four hundred and ninety times a day, that Man who told us that we should love our enemies and bless them that curse us, that Man who died for all men, will never, never forgive ANYONE who has rejected Him in this frail life, or, worse yet, who merely failed to believe on Him during this brief time. Instead of torturing them for a season and then ending their suffering with death, He will torture them through all eternity.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Der Alte]

Yes I can actually and I have. My proof lies within the book of Jeremiah but if opening your Bible is too much work for you then you can refer to my previous posts here, here and here.

That is not proof that is an opinion.

Now would you care to explain how the following verse is a hyperbole as well? I have done you the courtesy of inserting "eternity" where aeon is.
Matthew 13:39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the eternity, and the harvesters are angels.

If "aion" means "eternal" as I have proved then it can't actually mean the end of something thus here it is being used hyperbolically. Why is that so difficult? But as I have previously said neither "aion" or "aionios" are ever defined by adjectives which indicate a period less that eternity.

Matthew 13:38-40
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.​

The world is not literally a field. Metaphor. Children are not literally seeds or tares. metaphor. The devil does not literally sow anything. Metaphor. The angels do not literally reap. metaphor.
The end of life as we know it is not literally an eternity. Hyperbole.
I guess the native Greek speaking translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible know what they are talking about.