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Atheism and Ad Absurdum

Tinker Grey

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Agreement has nothing to do with morality, that's why it's ethics territory. If I think that it's rude to cross my eyes at you, you don't have to agree for that to be a moral of mine. Interaction is required for morality, not agreement.
For me, the distinction is meaningless. If you and your society has taught you that crossing your eyes is immoral, but mine has not, I don't have an agreement with you that you shall never cross your eyes at me.

If my society judges your society immoral for having such a rule, we have agreed amongst ourselves that such a rule is unnecessary and possibly a hindrance for the functioning of our society.

You consider it immoral because you've been taught by your society to think so -- effectively, you are in agreement with your society that it is immoral. Me? I need not care.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Because both the idea that morality can only be thought of as either subjective or objective are false choices.

Intersubjectivity means that morality has a subjective aspect without being random or arbitrary.

The subjective aspect can be based upon things (like circumstances) but that doesn't make them any less subjective.
 
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Kylie

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Because both the idea that morality can only be thought of as either subjective or objective are false choices.

Intersubjectivity means that morality has a subjective aspect without being random or arbitrary.

Can you demonstrate some objective aspect of morality?

Please note that things are not objective simply because most people share the same opinion.
 
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Kylie

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We get "morality from ourselves"? What in the world does "from ourselves" even mean?

It means we decide for ourselves if something is morally right or not. Other people may not share the same conclusions.
 
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Moral Orel

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For me, the distinction is meaningless. If you and your society has taught you that crossing your eyes is immoral, but mine has not, I don't have an agreement with you that you shall never cross your eyes at me.

If my society judges your society immoral for having such a rule, we have agreed amongst ourselves that such a rule is unnecessary and possibly a hindrance for the functioning of our society.

You consider it immoral because you've been taught by your society to think so -- effectively, you are in agreement with your society that it is immoral. Me? I need not care.
The distinction between "agreement" and "interaction" is meaningless to you? Really? You should probably re-evaluate this line of thinking. You're way out in left field, no offense.
 
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Tinker Grey

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The distinction between "agreement" and "interaction" is meaningless to you? Really? You should probably re-evaluate this line of thinking. You're way out in left field, no offense.
The distinction between ethics and morality is what I meant. However, I've been rethinking my position and how to word it. I hope to find time to write it up later.
 
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Moral Orel

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The distinction between ethics and morality is what I meant. However, I've been rethinking my position and how to word it. I hope to find time to write it up later.
I won't say much since you're working on a rewrite, but I do want to point out that saying the distinction between morality and ethics is meaningless is like saying the distinction between microeconomics and macroeconomics is meaningless. The words have very different definitions for good reason.
 
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Tinker Grey

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I won't say much since you're working on a rewrite, but I do want to point out that saying the distinction between morality and ethics is meaningless is like saying the distinction between microeconomics and macroeconomics is meaningless. The words have very different definitions for good reason.
The 'however' included a rethink of that too.
 
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Tinker Grey

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@Moral Orel,
I apologize if this doesn’t cover everything. I think it will come close. Rather than address various concepts (as I hold them) piecemeal, I will attempt a treatise that covers it. I don’t think this’ll be too long, but we’ll see. To the extent that it seems I’m lecturing, I apologize; it’s how I organize my thoughts. Also, for the purposes of these discussions, this post supersedes my previous attempts at explaining myself. (I hope I don’t have to retract that.)

Fundamentally, we are a social species. That is how we evolved. Social species evolved as such because for that species cooperation is an (the) effective means for the survival of that species.

We are hardwired for cooperation. (Of course, individuals vary in how much this is a factor in their makeup. Just as we are all various shades of brown, we are all various “shades” of cooperative.)

A discourse could be had here about what does it take to determine whether something is objectively true or not. I have determined that my judgment is sufficient to say it is objectively true that there is a rock in my front yard. That emperor penguins are a “social species” might requires a meta-analysis of papers of those that study them. The consensus of these experts is inter-subjectivity. For things fuzzier than “a rock in my front yard”, it may be as close as we can come to objectivity.

I would suggest that it is fairly beyond question that we are a social species. I think it is just as much beyond question that this is a result of our evolution.

I have said before on these fora that experience of “objective” morality is the experience of a breeding we can’t escape. We are humans; we are social; we are moral.

I think then that we are moral to the degree we are cooperative with the social groups in which we find ourselves.

So who are we cooperating with? Well whatever social group in which we find ourselves. This can vary from time to time and place to place. I’d be hard pressed to disagree if someone found that my behavior at work toward my co-workers was different than my behavior at home with my family.

I would suggest that morality exists within a context, the context of whatever group we’re in. Why is this important? Because I doubt anyone in Attila the Hun’s empire thought that their armies raping the women of conquered tribes was immoral. Until one tribe finds the repercussions from killing a member of another tribe consequential, that society doesn’t find it immoral. Until we discover that slavery has negative consequences even for the slave owner, we don’t find slavery immoral. This is why I say morality exists only a set of agreements among a recognized group. Sure, I'd like to think that were I to have existed say 500 years ago I'd have found slavery reprehensible. But that is me
here and now. I cannot help be a product of my society.

As the world gets smaller and our groups get larger, we find the need for things like the UN, the Geneva convention, and watchdog-type organizations such as Amnesty International and the ACLU.

So at a personal level, we respond to the groups we decide we are part of. We feel guilt when we fail to cooperate. We are going against our nature. However, if we perceive some people as “other”, we feel OK about treating them badly.

The world is now a small place. The challenge for “moral” thinkers is to convince their fellow humans that there is only one tribe, that treating anyone badly, regardless of sex, sexual-orientation, color, social status, etc., is fundamentally harmful to the survival of the human race as a whole and has significant negative consequences for each individual involved.

Of course, 1000 years hence, should this post survive, readers might find me hopelessly naive.
 
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Moral Orel

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I would suggest that morality exists within a context, the context of whatever group we’re in.
But this is false. Morality exists in the individual. Sometimes people agree on morals, but it isn't necessary for a moral to exist. Some folks have as a moral principle, "One should not commit suicide". They would hold this to be a principle of theirs whether they lived in a society or if they were deserted on an island for the rest of their existence.

Furthermore, even when the group is considered, oftentimes the group influences an individual to have morals that are contradictory to the rest of the group. Think about children who grow up with abusive or alcoholic parents that decide "One should not use physical violence on their children" or "One should not drink alcohol excessively". These would be moral principles that go against the group, certainly not an agreement or made in any attempt at cooperation with the group.

I did read your whole post, and I don't want to give the impression that I'm only considering a snippet and tossing the rest, but this disregard for the distinction between ethics and morality permeates the whole thing. I believe settling this distinction you find meaningless answers a lot of what you have to say.

What I think I see going on, not just in your post, but echoed from a lot of folks in this thread, is the conflating of two ideas. There is a reason that such and such moral exists; and there is a reason that such and such moral is true. "One should not murder", as an example, is not true. It isn't false either. You can show me lots of objectively true reasons that the moral principle "One should not murder" came about and why people feel the way they do about murder, but those aren't reasons that the principle is "true", they're only reasons that the moral principle exists.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It means we decide for ourselves if something is morally right or not. Other people may not share the same conclusions.

We do? All the time, every time? Really?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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But this is false. Morality exists in the individual. Sometimes people agree on morals, but it isn't necessary for a moral to exist. Some folks have as a moral principle, "One should not commit suicide". They would hold this to be a principle of theirs whether they lived in a society or if they were deserted on an island for the rest of their existence.

Furthermore, even when the group is considered, oftentimes the group influences an individual to have morals that are contradictory to the rest of the group. Think about children who grow up with abusive or alcoholic parents that decide "One should not use physical violence on their children" or "One should not drink alcohol excessively". These would be moral principles that go against the group, certainly not an agreement or made in any attempt at cooperation with the group.

I did read your whole post, and I don't want to give the impression that I'm only considering a snippet and tossing the rest, but this disregard for the distinction between ethics and morality permeates the whole thing. I believe settling this distinction you find meaningless answers a lot of what you have to say.

What I think I see going on, not just in your post, but echoed from a lot of folks in this thread, is the conflating of two ideas. There is a reason that such and such moral exists; and there is a reason that such and such moral is true. "One should not murder", as an example, is not true. It isn't false either. You can show me lots of objectively true reasons that the moral principle "One should not murder" came about and why people feel the way they do about murder, but those aren't reasons that the principle is "true", they're only reasons that the moral principle exists.

And you came to these conclusions after reading 'who,' might I ask? (Not that I think you're wrong, necessarily, but when folks start attempting to parse the ontology in various, seemingly authoritative ways, such as you're doing here, I like to know from 'where' they got at least the essential epistemic, metaphysical and axiological items for their conclusions....
 
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Moral Orel

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And you came to these conclusions after reading 'who,' might I ask? (Not that I think you're wrong, necessarily, but when folks start attempting to parse the ontology in various, seemingly authoritative ways, such as you're doing here, I like to know from 'where' they got at least the essential epistemic, metaphysical and axiological items for their conclusions....
I'll give you three guesses as to what books I read Philo...:rolleyes:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I'll give you three guesses as to what books I read Philo...:rolleyes:

... Oh, I don't know:

1) The novel adaptation of the movie, Caddyshack?

2) Shakespeare's, the Taming of the Shrew?

3) The Andy Warhol Diaries?

But seriously, I have no idea other than to say "something by A.J. Ayer" or one of an assortment of other Emotivists? :rolleyes:
 
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Moral Orel

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... Oh, I don't know:

1) The novel adaptation of the movie, Caddyshack?

2) Shakespeare's, the Taming of the Shrew?

3) The Andy Warhol Diaries?

But seriously, I have no idea other than to say "something by A.J. Ayer" or one of an assortment of other Emotivists? :rolleyes:
Oh Philo, you don't know me very well if you guessed something other than "nothing". I've had conversations with various people, I've read articles online, I'm not saying my ideas aren't influenced by anyone, but I haven't read any formal philosophy books or papers since college, and I know that's what you're looking for.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Oh Philo, you don't know me very well if you guessed something other than "nothing". I've had conversations with various people, I've read articles online, I'm not saying my ideas aren't influenced by anyone, but I haven't read any formal philosophy books or papers since college, and I know that's what you're looking for.

Well, that seems to be an honest answer if ever I heard one ...

I'll just say that I appreciate quite a bit how developed your ideas about morality and ethics are. They're nothing to sneeze at. It's just that they sound to me like they oscillate in and out of "the Emotivist" position somewhat. But that's only my quick assessment on what your ethical ideas 'sound' like to me at the present moment, especially being that I haven't read or heard them all. So, I could be wrong in my attempt to taxonomically 'spot' your position with any kind of exacting measure (...not that it would be true to say that there is an exacting measure, mind you. On the other hand, it wouldn't be false either.)
 
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Moral Orel

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Well, that seems to be an honest answer if ever I heard one ...

I'll just say that I appreciate quite a bit how developed your ideas about morality and ethics are. They're nothing to sneeze at. It's just that they sound to me like they oscillate in and out of "the Emotivist" position somewhat. But that's only my quick assessment on what your ethical ideas 'sound' like to me at the present moment, especially being that I haven't read or heard them all. So, I could be wrong in my attempt to taxonomically 'spot' your position with any kind of exacting measure (...not that it would be true to say that there is an exacting measure, mind you. On the other hand, it wouldn't be false either.)
I had to Google "Emotivism", but yeah, emotivist sounds pretty close, sure. In the simplest terms, we're expressing our feelings about things, and attempting to persuade others to share those feelings.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I had to Google "Emotivism", but yeah, emotivist sounds pretty close, sure. In the simplest terms, we're expressing our feelings about things, and attempting to persuade others to share those feelings.

Yeah, I get what you're saying. When we make moral statements, we ARE expressing something about our own emotional priorities.

Even with the above being the case, though, it's been labeled by ethicists as a form of "descriptivism," one that comes out of the philosophy of Logical Positivism of folks like A.J. Ayer and Bertrand Russell. In the end, this position has been taken to task as being self-deflating since it has to somewhat upend various analytic usages of language (like those from a 'Prescriptive' moral assertion) in order to make its own assertions about the meaning of moral statements and their associated actions.

So, while I think the Emotivists have had some interesting things to say about the nature of moral statements, some of which do counter the position of moral relativism, this position in and of itself has its own ontological problems that undercut its own assertions.
 
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Kaon

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Was in a friend's wedding not too long ago and got into an argument with one of our other friends concerning slavery in the Bible. Not sure what he was ultimately trying to point out (maybe trying to get the moral high ground as an Atheist), but the debate transitioned to how he could objectively prove that slavery is wrong. He kept referring to "human wellness" as a moral principle that could be proven objectively. I asked him if the move to improve human evolution by removing the "inferior" peoples would be justified as morally right (even though there existed those that believed that). His response was "that's ridiculous because no one would believe that and neither would you." Okay, so I brought up the cultures/nations that believe that slavery is a justifiable and morally acceptable part of life (Not too many left). Again, his response: "Freedom is an aspect of human wellness. If they are not free then they are not well." This finally led to how he could objectively define a value term such as "wellness", which he replied "anything good for humans to live well. Anyone who believes that wellness involves extreme harm for some future goal is just insane." Any thoughts?

Slavery in the bible (if you did what the God of Moses said) was tantamount to an employee-employer relationship. Yes, they got to beat their slaves if they did certain things, but not everyone was so degenerate that they beat their slaves/employees at all. Moreover, slaves got freedom after a certain amount of time - their debts must be forgive.

Even still, some people chose to sell themselves into slavery. Why? Because their "masters/bosses" provided them with livelihood: insurance, a form of social security, housing, food stipends, security, etc. That is not European and American slavery - which is certifiably barbaric, sadistic and extremely violent and predatory.


Having said all of that, I do think that atheists have excellent points on the entirety of the point. Why entertain a financial system of the world if we are beyond the world? These are questions I had as an agnostic, and they are still with me as a believer. I think it is important to ask questions, and to be skeptical of every single thing - but I don't believe it should be a philosophy. Skepticism is a step in enlightenment - not a residence of thought and philosophy. But, because of the limited transparency of religion in general, many people (it seems) have no choice but to remain skeptical.

If anyone is a stumbling block in finding out the Truth, then that person is in even worse fate than the one who stumbled - especially if s/he knows what s/he is doing. So, there is a bigger issue of "religion" and "canonicity" at play here.
 
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