Christian view of "sensuality" and pleasure

[Tempura]

This leads to a cycle of striving, failing and falling short which is best illustrated by the hamster’s wheel. Round and round he turns towards his mission. After a few iterations he forgets what he’s chasing. The habit is ingrained.

Well said, sister.

 

[Sabertooth]

I get the feeling that it's over and just a matter of time before it becomes futile for the majority of the population.

You are going to have to choose between "loving God" and "being an incel."

"If someone says, 'I love God,' and hates his [sister], he is a liar;
for he who does not love his [sister] whom he has seen,
how can he love God whom he has not seen?" 1 John 4:20 NKJV

 

[VCR-2000]

You are going to have to choose between "loving God" and "being an incel."

"If someone says, 'I love God,' and hates his [sister], he is a liar;
for he who does not love his [sister] whom he has seen,
how can he love God whom he has not seen?" 1 John 4:20 NKJV

I think "being an incel" sounds like an accusation. I don't identify with so-called incels and I don't think they have that great of an attitude either. Too bitter and depressed they are.

 

[Inkfingers]

As an "agnostic" or bad/weak Christian, I known that Christianity warns others about sensual things like eating, sex, attractiveness, a lot of this stuff. But, do you think God meant to create the system we see as if those are always inherently evil or sinful?

Jesus also even said in Matthew 22:30 (there was also another iteration elsewhere in the bible) that "they will neither marry, nor be given in marriage..." so it seems that Jesus said we won't be married or have a similar kind of intimacy with the opposite sex of any kind at all in Heaven. That is one thing that made me feel even repulsed and one part that "helped" my faith slowly wither until the point today.

I don't feel like I can completely accept Jesus or God anymore. I used to be more spiritual or at least tried to be when I was younger, I thought that I was going to be able to have a partner, but the narrative about not being with someone who I can look at with physical passion, be naked with, and have an exclusive intimacy that I could've missed seeing on earth (seems that there is a two-tiered system in place) have made me disillusioned. I also became more disillusioned because I was born at the time where my generation will be the one alive to see everything become really awful and then it would just end.

That is kind of where it stems from, why do you believe it is fair too? That other people, Christian and non-Christian alike got to acquire something that seems to be denied to a significant group of people who desire it but are denied it, either because God said no or the world makes it hard or difficult in some way?

What about when God said we will see whatever we would desire? Is desiring a partner of the opposite sex to be with somehow unclean to God or has become unclean in his eyes? At least a lot of Christians seem to have a subconscious belief thinking so.

I want to close here for now.

The message in Judaism / Old Testament is pro-marriage, pro-family, and pro-procreation. Genesis says "it is not good for man to be alone" and "go forth and multiply, be fruitful and replenish the earth", whilst exodus says "honour your father and your mother".

The message in Christianity / New Testament is very different. Paul says that celibacy is superior to marriage, and Christ says we must hate our parents to the point of not even bothering to bury them when they die.

Two VERY different religions.

 

[Sabertooth]

I don't identify with so-called incels and I don't think they have that great of an attitude either.

My mistake. This post and so many of your others sound so self-defeating in the relationship department; the typical presentation of an incel. And I suspect it is why you refuse to completely surrender to Jesus, because He hasn't met you on your terms.

But He says to seek, first, His Kingdom and His Righteousness then all these things shall be added to you [Matthew 6:33]. In the process, He will turn you into husband material. That is more attractive to a Godly woman than watching you wallow in self-pity. (It can't be any worse than your current condition.)

 

[coffee4u]

The message in Judaism / Old Testament is pro-marriage, pro-family, and pro-procreation. Genesis says "it is not good for man to be alone" and "go forth and multiply, be fruitful and replenish the earth", whilst exodus says "honour your father and your mother".

The message in Christianity / New Testament is very different. Paul says that celibacy is superior to marriage, and Christ says we must hate our parents to the point of not even bothering to bury them when they die.

Two VERY different religions.

Ephesians 6:1-3
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), so that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.

You may want to read the New testament again.

 

[Inkfingers]

Ephesians 6:1-3
Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), so that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.

You may want to read the New testament again.

Read it yourself: Luke 14:26

"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple"

 

[coffee4u]

Read it yourself: Luke 14:26

"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple"

You have taken that completely out of context.

You have to read all or at least a good number of verses on a topic before you can have a good understanding of what is meant. You also have to look at who is being addressed and the circumstances surrounding it. Only then can you say with any kind of reasonable certainty that it is meant to be taken this way or that way, you can't just pluck one verse out at random especially not if many others verses seem to contradict it. That simply means we got hold of the wrong end of the stick to start with. Sometimes it helps to look over to the Greek or Hebrew which may shed more light on a word.

If Jesus actually meant for you or anyone to indiscriminately hate his parents would we have verses saying honour them?
Would Jesus on the cross have motioned to John to take care of his own mother?
Would we have verses on forgiving others (all others)
And loving others (all others)
No.
In that case you have to dig deeper.

In some cases, people have to give up their family or friends to follow Jesus and this is what he is talking about. For example, the parents are following another religion and they say they will disown their adult child if they become a follower of Jesus, in that case they would have to leave their family in order to follow.

Matthew 10 sheds some more light on it.
5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions:
First up Jesus is talking to the disciples, and while we can learn a lot from this, not all may pertain to us.
18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles.
You are highly unlikely to be dragged before a king, but perhaps you could be made fun of in front of peers.
21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
In this case, the disciple would have to cut all ties with their family and 'hate them for his sake'.
Again you probably won't find your brother is going to betray you to death, but someone has or could.

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
If you are part of a strong Christian family this won't apply, but Jesus is saying he is bringing division because not all families will follow, it will cause fights in some families. You may be the only person in your family who follows and are you prepared for that?
Will all daughters-in-laws be against all mothers-in-laws? No, I had a wonderful Christian MIL, but it's possible.

Then it is clarified further.
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

The whole thing is really saying that God is to come first and we have to be prepared to give up all. For the rich young man, it was his wealth, because he put that before God. For a workaholic, it might even be work. Whatever in life that could come before God.

 

[Inkfingers]

If Jesus actually meant for you or anyone to indiscriminately hate his parents would we have verses saying honour them?

If Jesus meant for you to honour your parents why would he say you have to hate them?

See how that works?

In some cases, people have to give up their family or friends to follow Jesus and this is what he is talking about. For example, the parents are following another religion and they say they will disown their adult child if they become a follower of Jesus, in that case they would have to leave their family in order to follow.

Miseo is not "give up". It is hate.

You know the verse that says do not hate your enemies, pray for them? Well the word translated as "hate" there, miseo, is the same one translated as "hate" in the line where Jesus says "hate your father...".

“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’
If you are part of a strong Christian family this won't apply, but Jesus is saying he is bringing division because not all families will follow, it will cause fights in some families.

Bringing a sword, and hating, are not a bit of division.

It's not just saying love God 'more'. Again and again the NT is saying deny the human life (marriage, family, self-defence, concern for future).

 

[coffee4u]

If Jesus meant for you to honour your parents why would he say you have to hate them?

If Jesus taught everyone to randomly hate their parents for no reason this goes against his own teaching of honouring them. He reaffirmed this a few times to be sure that he was understood as not encouraging needless hate. Matthew 15:4–6

And he [Jesus] said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”
He said to him, “Which ones?”
And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.”
—Matthew 19:17–19

As to the word itself, the word 'hate' in the Bible often means preference or to love less, not emotional hatred. The same way that God 'hated' Esua.
“I have loved you,” says the Lord. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.”
—Malachi 1:2–3
It meant show preference, not burn with hatred because God loves everyone. God cannot hate as we think of hate.

1 John 4:8
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love.

 

[jacks]

The Song of Solomon is very sensual.

 

[Inkfingers]

If Jesus taught everyone to randomly hate their parents for no reason this goes against his own teaching of honouring them.

Matthew 10:34-36 suggests otherwise...

 

[VCR-2000]

As for marriage or any relationships, I heard some place before there are statistically four times as many men that remain single throughout their lifetime as women who are.

 

[coffee4u]

Matthew 10:34-36 suggests otherwise...

As I said and tried to explain, yes it can be, if your household is against Jesus. In some countries, Christians are killed. This is not how it is in the west.

Why don't you go and ask your pastor and see if he doesn't agree with me. The main commandments we have are to
1) love God with our whole heart and soul and
2) Love others as ourselves.

If you think God is telling you to go and act hatefully towards your mother and disrespect her, so help you. I will leave this here as you obviously don't wish to learn.

 

[VCR-2000]

Whether hate is "hate" or "not love" isn't relevant here.

 

[Inkfingers]

As I said and tried to explain, yes it can be, if your household is against Jesus. In some countries, Christians are killed. This is not how it is in the west.

Why don't you go and ask your pastor and see if he doesn't agree with me. The main commandments we have are to
1) love God with our whole heart and soul and
2) Love others as ourselves.

If you think God is telling you to go and act hatefully towards your mother and disrespect her, so help you. I will leave this here as you obviously don't wish to learn.

One passage says you must hate your family. Another says your family will (WILL, not "may possibly") be your enemy. A third says marriage is inferior to celibacy. Yet another says leave your dead relatives. And one more says give no thought to the future.

That (in addition to all the writing on martydom etc), to me, is saying disregard the earthly life with extreme prejudice. Can you truly not see that?

 

[coffee4u]

One passage says you must hate your family. Another says your family will (WILL, not "may possibly") be your enemy. A third says marriage is inferior to celibacy. Yet another says leave your dead relatives. And one more says give no thought to the future.

That (in addition to all the writing on martydom etc), to me, is saying disregard the earthly life with extreme prejudice. Can you truly not see that?

I already explained what it means. You have to take the other verses into consideration and this goes for all scripture that you read.

So you tell me what you think God is asking of you when he says to honour your father and mother?
Two, tell me why I should hate my devote Christian father?

 

[Inkfingers]

I already explained what it means. You have to take the other verses into consideration and this goes for all scripture that you read.

So you tell me what you think God is asking of you when he says to honour your father and mother?
Two, tell me why I should hate my devote Christian father?

Well, no man is on earth is to be called father, and Catholics would say that Mary is the new Eve and so the new mother; meaning that the ones to be honoured may not be what you think.

 

[coffee4u]

Well, no man is on earth is to be called father, and Catholics would say that Mary is the new Eve and so the new mother; meaning that the ones to be honoured may not be what you think.

I am not calling my father, 'Father' as in a ministry title, he is simply my biological father, my dad. He is also 91, frail and a devote Christian, but according to your theology, I should go around hating on him.

Not Catholic, don't agree with Catholic theology.

 

[chilehed]

... I known that Christianity warns others about sensual things like eating, sex, attractiveness, a lot of this stuff...

Ummm... no, it doesn't. Christianity sees these as positive goods. The problem is with inordinate attachments to or abuse of them.