I presume that you would acknowledge that God is just but the question is, is punishment the same thing as justice
We would both certainly agree that being condemned to the lake of fire qualifies as punishment but does it meet the demands of justice? For example, a rapist could rape a woman. He claims he is innocent and is not repentant for his crime but is found guilty and sentenced to prison. We would agree that the rapist is being punished but the rape victim will have to live with the consequences of what happened to her for the rest of her life. Is that justice as the victim has life-long consequences through no fault of her own? Suppose yet that a child was conceived and born as a result of the rape and the mother now has the responsibility to raise the child on her own while the perpetrator does nothing but sit in jail. Is that justice? Based on this example, it can be argued that there is a difference between punishment and justice as the former does not always meet the demands of the latter. The pertinent question to consider then is how can punishment also meet the demands of justice in this case? I would submit that the answer demands that the perpetrator of the crime must willingly agree to make amends and seek reconciliation with the one whom he violated. He needs to admit guilt, seek forgiveness and make recompense for his crime - perhaps some sort of ongoing financial obligation/child support when he leaves prison and hopefully gets a job. The point is justice is only accomplished when the perpetrator participates in making amends toward the one he is guilty of offending.
I believe this human scenario approximates the picture of how God deals with us justly for our sins against Him. There is Biblical precedent for this view of punishment/justice throughout the scriptures. For example Ex 22:1 states: "If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and kills it or sells it, he shall repay five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep." In the NT, Zacchaeus promises Jesus that he will restore fourfold those whom he has defrauded. These instances exemplify that justice demands not just the aspect of punishment but also recompense in order to make amends and fully bring about God's justice.
Given this scriptural evidence, we can apply this to the concept of an eternal hell. Being condemned to eternal punishment in the lake of fire certainly constitutes as punishment but it does not bring about God's justice because the inhabitants in the lake of fire have no opportunity to admit their guilt, seek forgiveness and seek to make recompense as it is "already too late" as you claim. They must suffer the consequence of their sin forever. There is no chance for amends and reconciliation with God and therein lies the weakness with the retributive eternal punishment of hell. The view of the lake of fire that is most consistent with the scriptures and the character of God is the view where the lake of fire is for the purpose of chastisement where sinners recognize their sin against God, repent and seek forgiveness from the Lamb. Of course they, like all of us cannot repay their debt against God except that they believe in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus to make recompense for their sin. Like the rapist example it requires willing participation on their part as guilty sinners before a holy God. This reconciliation model of the lake of fire requires that the sinners must endure the purifying fires of hell in order that they may seek reconciliation with the Lamb who is also present in the lake of fire (Rev 14:10) so that one day God's ultimate goal of reconciliation is achieved. "For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross" (Col 1:19-20) which results in "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil 2:10-11).
Reconciliation with God is impossible with the eternal conscious torment view of hell as well as with the annihilation view of hell as those in the lake of fire are never reconciled to God. God is indeed a God of love and mercy, and He reconciles all to himself - either in this age or the next.
Ok to start with I do not believe in the eternal conscious torment view. It is a Catholic false teaching that is not biblical so hear we are at agreement.
As shown through the
scriptures on page one already Gods' salvation is conditional "IF". God's JUDGEMENTS are also conditional for example "
Do this and this will happen". Which can be applied through the scriptures in both as positive or negative sense (e.g. see DEUTERONOMY 28 on the blessings and curses).
For example...
HEBREWS 10:26-39 [26], FOR
IF WE SIN WILLFULLY AFTER THAT WE HAVE RECEIVED THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE REMAINS NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, [27], BUT A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND
FIERY (G4442 πῦρ)
INDIGNATION (G2205 ζῆλος) WHICH SHALL
DEVOUR (G2068 ἐσθίω) THE ADVERSARIES (G5227 ὑπεναντίος)
The Greek word for Devour (G2068) ἐσθίω; esthiō in combination with fiery (G4442 πῦρ) indignation (G2205 ζῆλος) means God's fire wrath will literally devour consume or eat alive the adversaries of God who are defined in v26 as all those who sin willfully or continue in known unrepentant sin when they have been given a knowledge of the truth but reject it in order to practice sin and reject God's ways in order to follow their own ways. This was one of the main points I was hoping for you to pick up on in sharing this scripture as it links in to HEBREWS 6:4-8.
God's JUSTICE in linked to JUDGEMENT and God's LOVE and MERCY as shown in the post you are quoting from. According to the scriptures the wages of sin is death *ROMANS 6:23. This is also seen all throughout the old and new testament scriptures.
For example everytime someone sinned in the old covenant in order for the those who sinned to be reconciled to God they had to offer a sin offering which required the
DEATH (wages of sin; Gods judgement and justice for the sin committed) of the animal sacrifice that we know through the scriptures pointed to JESUS as our true sin offering that takes away the sins of the world *JOHN 1:29; HEBREWS 7: HEBREWS 8: HEBREWS 9 and HEBREWS 10 etc.
This is taught all through the old and new testament scriptures. That the wages of sin is death and was first proclaimed in the Garden of Eden. You shall not eat of the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil. In the day you eat thereof you shall surely die *GENESIS 2:17.
God judgement is "IF" you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall surely die. SIN as you would agree is breaking anyone of Gods' commandments and unbelief in God's Word as shown in ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11; and 1 JOHN 3:4.
As shown through the scriptures above God's JUDGEMENTS are connected to sin or disobedience to what God commands us not to do. ALL OF US HAVE SINNED according to the scriptures and all stand guilty before God of sin and the wages of those sins is DEATH *ROMANS 3:9-23; ROMANS 6:23. DEATH is God's Judgement from God's justice to those who disobey God's Word and what God commands. So not looking to good for all mankind according to the scriptures right?
This is where we see the GREATEST LOVE known to man as greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends *JOHN 15:13. Here we all are. All have sinned and stand guilty before God of sin and we wages of these sins is DEATH (God's Judgement). Yet God so loved our world. He was not willing that anyone of us should be lost and perish but that all should come to a knowldge of the truth and be saved, that he sent His only begotten son JESUS, that whosoever should believe on him for salvation and accept his free gift of Gods' GRACE should not perish but have everlasting life *JOHN 3:16; EPHESIANS 2:8.
We see here dear friend that the greatest of all love is revealed in JESUS and Gods justice and judgement for the sins of the whole world that the son of God should give up His life as a gift to those who accept this gift. He gives us His life for our death penalty (God's Judgement) that if we accept His dear for our sins we should not perish but be returned and reconcilled to God's love though the blood of JESUS at the cross.
God is a God indeed of LOVE, MERCY, JUSTICE and JUDGEMENT and we can see the GREATEST ACT FROM GOD in God sending his only begotten son to die the death for our sins, fulfilling God's justice and judgements for the sins of the whole world in JESUS.
The wages of sin is still DEATH but because of JESUS and God's forgiveness there is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. *ROMANS 8:1-4.
Dear friend do not be deceived God is not mocked. We are saved by God's grace through faith *EPHESIANS 2:8. If there is no faith there is no GRACE as Gods GRACE is received through faith and accepting the gift of God's dear son.
All who do not believe God's Word and the Gospel of our Lord JESUS Christ and continue in known unrepentant sin according to the scriptures will not enter into the kingdom of Heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing disrespecting the Spirit of Grace. When this happens there is no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come who all must bear for themselves who reject the sacrifice that JESUS made for them who deny him.
If there was no justice and judgement then JESUS died in vain and there is no place to see God so loved the world as in the sacrifice of JESUS for the sins of the world so that everyone who acecpts his sacrifice for our sins do not have to receive the JUDGEMENTS of God's vengence that will devour the adversaries at the second coming *2 THESSALONIANS 1:6-10; REVELATION 22:11-12.
How sad a day will this day be when the many come to JESUS thinking they have second chances saying LORD, LORD did we not do all these things in your name. Only to hear the words Depart from me you who work sin I never knew you.
