When did the Old Covenant cease?

[mkgal1]

Why? Not being faithful to the Sinai covenant and it's law.

But you're saying that wasn't even an expectation for Egypt and Babylon - so why would God punish them for something they weren't expected to do? Is that just?

 

[ralliann]

But you're saying that wasn't even an expectation for Egypt and Babylon - so why would God punish them for something they weren't expected to do? Is that just?

Honestly? Did you even really read my post?
He is not talking about them he is speaking about The two kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes, apart from the law.

Of Sinai yes, but there was "law" prior.

 

[ralliann]

Of Sinai yes, but there was "law" prior.

Yes, law was there. I believe I have also spoken of that too
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Hebrews 11 has many listed that walked by the law of faith. Abel, Enoch, Noah Abraham etc.


Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. {substance: or, ground, or, confidence }
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes, law was there. I believe I have also spoken of that too
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Hebrews 11 has many listed that walked by the law of faith. Abel, Enoch, Noah Abraham etc.

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. That is very specific. They are plural, not singular. The words in Hebrew are the same in Genesis 26:5 and Exodus 16:28.

 

[ralliann]

Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. That is very specific. They are plural, not singular. The words in Hebrew are the same in Genesis 26:5 and Exodus 16:28.

Huh?
Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Ex 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Huh?
Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Ex 16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

The Hebrew words are the same...there were laws prior to Sinai

 

[mkgal1]

Honestly? Did you even really read my post?
He is not talking about them he is speaking about The two kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

Yes.....I did read your post. Maybe I should have phrased is as "so why would God criticize Egypt and Babylon" instead of "punished". IOW.....to use Egypt and Babylon as derogatory names for Israel is to suggest that they (Egypt and Babylon) behaved in a way that wasn't acceptable. Do you see what I mean? Your point - as I'm understanding it - is that the Gentile nations were under NO obligation to any law.....that was exclusive for the Israelites AFTER Sinai (am I getting that correct?). But.....wouldn't that be unjust of God to use the names of Egypt and Babylon in a derogatory way to call Israel out when there weren't expectations placed on Egypt and Babylon in the first place?

Let me even try an example: wouldn't you think it's unjust for someone to use YOUR name as a derogatory way to describe someone - to actually insult them/criticize them - for something you never were expected to be or a standard set that you weren't even aware of? If I were to call another person "such a Ralliann" - in a negative way - for anything you weren't ever aware of......a standard you were never informed of that you were supposed to meet......wouldn't you think that's unfair to use you as a negative example? Because I believe there's another reason why God used the names of Egypt and Babylon to describe Israel - and it was something they (Egypt and Babylon) were actually doing/not doing that WAS a standard set for ALL of humanity.....right from the very beginning of creation of humanity (long before the Sinai covenant).

***I feel like this is rambling and not clear. I may have over-explained to the point of more confusion :/

 

[ralliann]

Yes.....I did read your post. Maybe I should have phrased is as "so why would God criticize Egypt and Babylon" instead of "punished". IOW.....to use Egypt and Babylon as derogatory names for Israel is to suggest that they (Egypt and Babylon) behaved in a way that wasn't acceptable. Do you see what I mean? Your point - as I'm understanding it - is that the Gentile nations were under NO obligation to any law.....that was exclusive for the Israelites AFTER Sinai (am I getting that correct?). But.....wouldn't that be unjust of God to use the names of Egypt and Babylon in a derogatory way to call Israel out when there weren't expectations placed on Egypt and Babylon in the first place?

Let me even try an example: wouldn't you think it's unjust for someone to use YOUR name as a derogatory way to describe someone - to actually insult them/criticize them - for something you never were expected to be or a standard set that you weren't even aware of? If I were to call another person "such a Ralliann" - in a negative way - for anything you weren't ever aware of......a standard you were never informed of that you were supposed to meet......wouldn't you think that's unfair to use you as a negative example? Because I believe there's another reason why God used the names of Egypt and Babylon to describe Israel - and it was something they (Egypt and Babylon) were actually doing/not doing that WAS a standard set for ALL of humanity.....right from the very beginning of creation of humanity (long before the Sinai covenant).

***I feel like this is rambling and not clear. I may have over-explained to the point of more confusion :/

Ok, I understand you better. I don't think you were rambling well no more than I myself in similar situations .
1. I have not said the nations have no law. The nations did have sins that God allowed to become completely sinful.
2. Nations that were destroyed for their utter sinfulness (wickedness) were judged by God for their sin.
3. Israel therefore was spiritually compared to them. In not keeping the Mosaic commands they spiritually had committed adultery etc. before God. These sins were literal for the nations, they actually carried them out in the flesh.

The difference being....The nations were not the spouse, therefore were not under such restrictions to God, but were still bound by marital law to their literal husbands.
Or another example. A man having multiple wives in some cultures does not violate marital law for having another wife. But...in a country where multiple wives are forbidden he can be called an adulterer. It all depends on what LAW one is living under.
Yet under both cultures adultery and fornication etc are wrong. They just have differing views on under what conditions it occurs.

 

[Wayne Gabler]

Matt 27:51 indicated a desecration of the temple at Jesus death.

This would suggest the authority of the priesthood was withdrawn at this time.

Some believe that this didn't happen until AD 70...

My view is that the temple continued to operate as a lifeless shell bouyed by religious tradition until the final destruction under the Romans.

I therefore conclude that the Old covenant ceased when Jesus fulfilled the Law and died.

Where is the evidence that this did not happen until AD 70 ?

Comments appreciated.

James was written after the scattering but before the 'latter days'. He is saying the 10 Commandments are the Law we are under. What covenant expired?
The one I am referencing is for the people that are alive at the end of the 1st day of the 1,000 year reign when the people are immortal and have a sinless heart. That means the 10 Commandments.

De:4:26: I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.
De:4:27-31:
And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations,
and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen,
whither the LORD shall lead you.
And there ye shall serve gods,
the work of men's hands,
wood and stone,
which neither see,
nor hear,
nor eat,
nor smell.
But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him,
if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
When thou art in tribulation,
and all these things are come upon thee,
even in the latter days,
if thou turn to the LORD thy God,
and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
(For the LORD thy God is a merciful God
he will not forsake thee,
neither destroy thee,
nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.
Jas:1:1:
James,
a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad,
greeting.
Jas:2:8-11:
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,
ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons,
ye commit sin,
and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law,
and yet offend in one point,
he is guilty of all.
For he that said,
Do not commit adultery,
said also,
Do not kill.
Now if thou commit no adultery,
yet if thou kill,
thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Heb:7:1-12:
For this Melchisedec,
king of Salem,
priest of the most high God,
who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings,
and blessed him;
To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all;
first being by interpretation King of righteousness,
and after that also King of Salem,
which is,
King of peace;
Without father,
without mother,
without descent,
having neither beginning of days,
nor end of life;
but made like unto the Son of God;
abideth a priest continually.
Now consider how great this man was,
unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
And verily they that are of the sons of Levi,
who receive the office of the priesthood,
have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law,
that is,
of their brethren,
though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham,
and blessed him that had the promises.
And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
And here men that die receive tithes;
but there he receiveth them,
of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
And as I may so say,
Levi also,
who receiveth tithes,
payed tithes in Abraham.
For he was yet in the loins of his father,
when Melchisedec met him.
If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood,
(for under it the people received the law,)
what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec,
and not be called after the order of Aaron?
For the priesthood being changed,
there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb:8:10:
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,
saith the Lord;
I will put my laws into their mind,
and write them in their hearts:
and I will be to them a God,
and they shall be to me a people:

The law that applies to the 1,000 year reign is this law.
Re:21:1-8:
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:
for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city,
new Jerusalem,
coming down from God out of heaven,
prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying,
Behold,
the tabernacle of God is with men,
and he will dwell with them,
and they shall be his people,
and God himself shall be with them,
and be their God.
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;
and there shall be no more death,
neither sorrow,
nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain:
for the former things are passed away.
And he that sat upon the throne said,
Behold,
I make all things new.
And he said unto me,
Write:
for these words are true and faithful.
And he said unto me,
It is done.
I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the end.
I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and I will be his God,
and he shall be my son.
But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
which is the second death.
Eze:36:24-28:
For I will take you from among the heathen,
and gather you out of all countries,
and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you,
and ye shall be clean:
from all your filthiness,
and from all your idols,
will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you,
and a new spirit will I put within you:
and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh,
and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you,
and cause you to walk in my statutes,
and ye shall keep my judgments,
and do them.
And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers;
and ye shall be my people,
and I will be your God.

 

[Behold]

The old covenant and old testament (laws and commandments) began to cease in the foreknowledge of God when God "found fault with the old covenant, laws and commandments", because none of them could "GIVE righteousness".
So, Jesus came, who IS the New Covenant and the New Testament, (written in His Blood) to give His Blood for our sin and His very righteousness as a free gift, as the "gift of righteousness".
Its free, and can't be earned or kept by us. ITs a GIFT that God gives and maintains.
Philippians 1:6

Under the Law, which is the Old Covenant, there is nothing you could do that could give you any righteousness. You tried to keep commandments, laws, feasts, .....and none of this can give you righteousness or make you righteous.
Some NT Christians are still living under that Old Covenant, theologically.... and are trying to keep themselves saved by the very things that God found fault with and replaced with the blood of Jesus.
These Christians have replaced Jesus on the Cross with their self effort to try be accepted by God and kept by God.
These are Legalists. Who believe you try to earn what God has freely Given.

 

[SkyWriting]

We need the guidelines in the same way that all sheep need a fenced, safe pasture in which to live, lest they wander off and become lunch for the wolves.

Has the Old Covenant totally ended?

This is why not:

Luke 10:27
And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Romans 13:10
Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Luke 6:31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[SkyWriting]

James was written after the scattering but before the 'latter days'. He is saying the 10 Commandments are the Law we are under. What covenant expired?

The one of written law.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Hebrews 9:15
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Luke 22:20
And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.

Hebrews 8:6
But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises.

Hebrews 8:7-8
For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second. For he finds fault with them when he says: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

2 Corinthians 3:6
Who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Jeremiah 31:33
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Matt 27:51 indicated a desecration of the temple at Jesus death.

This would suggest the authority of the priesthood was withdrawn at this time.

Some believe that this didn't happen until AD 70...

My view is that the temple continued to operate as a lifeless shell bouyed by religious tradition until the final destruction under the Romans.

I therefore conclude that the Old covenant ceased when Jesus fulfilled the Law and died.

Where is the evidence that this did not happen until AD 70 ?

Comments appreciated.

On what basis do you think the authority of the priest was withdrawn? Paul went to the temple regularly as did Peter and James. Why would they do that if your position was theirs?

It happened in 70 AD because the temple, the priests and all their written material burned and the land plowed under. No one could perform that function so it was then destroyed. God gave them 40 years to repent and not a few did.

 

[SkyWriting]

On what basis do you think the authority of the priest was withdrawn? Paul went to the temple regularly as did Peter and James. Why would they do that if your position was theirs?

It happened in 70 AD because the temple, the priests and all their written material burned and the land plowed under. No one could perform that function so it was then destroyed. God gave them 40 years to repent and not a few did.

They were baby Christians tied to traditions and laws of their time.
Adults don't need guidance from babies.

 

[Carl Emerson]

On what basis do you think the authority of the priest was withdrawn? Paul went to the temple regularly as did Peter and James. Why would they do that if your position was theirs?

Paul speaks about being all things to all men in order to win some.

He spoke of becoming a Jew to win the Jews. This was part of his evangelism strategy. This does not indicate or affirm that the Old Covenant Priesthood was still operating with God's authority.

As Jesus after the resurrection Himself took the position of our High Priest and we ourselves share in the priesthood of all believers, the Old Covenant priesthood has been replaced in Him.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

They were baby Christians tied to traditions and laws of their time.
Adults don't need guidance from babies.

Those “baby christians” wrote the whole of the New Testament demonstrating an understanding of God never rivaled by any man since. We are baby christians compared to them!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Paul speaks about being all things to all men in order to win some.

He spoke of becoming a Jew to win the Jews. This was part of his evangelism strategy. This does not indicate or affirm that the Old Covenant Priesthood was still operating with God's authority.

As Jesus after the resurrection Himself took the position of our High Priest and we ourselves share in the priesthood of all believers, the Old Covenant priesthood has been replaced in Him.

Peter didn’t say that and he went to the temple too. So did John. They all did. Why wouldn’t they? Jesus didn’t tell them before the ascension that the old was NOW over. He even told them to go to the Jews which they did for a long time. No one said it had been replaced until it was obviously gone. God gave the house of Israel time, very kind of Him.

 

[ralliann]

Peter didn’t say that and he went to the temple too. So did John. They all did. Why wouldn’t they? Jesus didn’t tell them before the ascension that the old was NOW over. He even told them to go to the Jews which they did for a long time. No one said it had been replaced until it was obviously gone. God gave the house of Israel time, very kind of Him.

I think it is more than that. Jews were judged by the law. and there was a curse coming upon them specifically which was prophesied in the law. This curse and wrath was preached by John to warn them to escape Gods wrath in the one who came after him. I think the Apostles all were in a race knowing that that wrath was going to fall shortly, to save as many as they could from it. But the prophetic utterance concerning this wrath would later on be turned against the nations which brought that punishment.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Paul speaks about being all things to all men in order to win some.

He spoke of becoming a Jew to win the Jews. This was part of his evangelism strategy. This does not indicate or affirm that the Old Covenant Priesthood was still operating with God's authority.

As Jesus after the resurrection Himself took the position of our High Priest and we ourselves share in the priesthood of all believers, the Old Covenant priesthood has been replaced in Him.

Ok although I think love motivates not a strategy. He wrote “he has become” more a discovery than a plan.