When did the Old Covenant cease?

[BNR32FAN]

Romans 4 seems to sum up the "righteousness of Abraham" and I don't see ANY change there.

It was Jesus that fulfilled the covenant between Abraham and God.

Galatians 3:16 ~ The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.​

​

The burnt sacrifices were necessary for atonement of sin until Jesus came.

“Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[ralliann]

Yes you did. You are avoiding Sodom as well as others. BEFORE Sinai...they were judged for their grave SINS.

Right, I have brought this up before. Pre Sinai law was retained in Moses law.

Look up what these things were....

Law was added 430 years after Abraham.
Le 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Le 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
Le 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled

Natural law

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. {in them: or, to them }
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: {so … : or, that they may be }
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. {more: or, rather }
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; {to retain: or, to acknowledge } {a reprobate … : or, a mind void of judgment or, an unapproving mind }
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: {without natural … : or unsociable }
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. {have … : or, consent with }
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

 

[ralliann]

Yes you did. You are avoiding Sodom as well as others. BEFORE Sinai...they were judged for their grave SINS.

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

So Sodom and Gomorrah...

Abraham knew
Ge 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Those before Abraham knew
Ge 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Ge 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Ge 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Ge 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Ge 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

Men which knew God called upon God to Judge between them to avenge them
Ge 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;
Ge 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Ge 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require;
at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.
Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Sarah.....
Ge 16:5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.

Jacob and Tamar...
Ge 38:26 And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.

 

[ralliann]

Ro 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Ac 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

So Sodom and Gomorrah... Before and apart from Moses law...

Abraham knew
Ge 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Those before Abraham knew
Ge 4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

Ge 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Only Lot was left in the city...So who was left to cry out a great cry to God? The judge of all the earth....
Do you suppose it was the righteous that had been slain, their blood crying from the ground just like able?

Ge 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
Ge 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Ge 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.

Men which knew God called upon God to Judge between them to avenge them
Ge 4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;
Ge 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Ge 9:5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require;
at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man’s brother will I require the life of man.
Ge 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Sarah.....
Ge 16:5 And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.

Jacob and Tamar...
Ge 38:26 And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Right, I have brought this up before. Pre Sinai law was retained in Moses law.

and this disproves what I said how????

 

[ralliann]

and this disproves what I said how????

it proves that sin which is common to all men were before Moses. Moses gave law to Israel distinctly apart law which was before. For example there was no death penalty to pick up sticks on the seventh day Sabbath etc. Simply because Moses law retained law which was common for the nations does not make it distinct as Moses law, nor does that obligate anyone else to all Moses law (whole law).

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

it proves that sin which is common to all men were before Moses. Moses gave law to Israel distinctly apart law which was before. For example there was no death penalty to pick up sticks on the seventh day Sabbath etc. Simply because Moses law retained law which was common for the nations does not make it distinct as Moses law, nor does that obligate anyone else to all Moses law (whole law).

But that does not disprove it, it actually strengthens it. The destruction of Sodom was before Sinai, thus judgements were performed because of sin.

 

[ralliann]

But that does not disprove it, it actually strengthens it. The destruction of Sodom was before Sinai, thus judgements were performed because of sin.

I gave the Sabbath as an example

33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies’ land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.

 

[Hawkins]

Technically, no law nor covenant will go away till the final judgment. Whatever deemed everlasting will still be everlasting.

Genesis 17:7 (NIV2011)
I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you.

The Second Curtain means no human is in Heaven yet, however the way of reconciliation with God is opened through Jesus Christ. The way is opened but no human (other than Jesus if He counts) ever sets foot in Heaven yet.

The New Covenant is logically a final covenant as God's Grace has been maximized. The old covenant being abolished only in the sense how different human groups are judged. Paul has to emphasize the abolishment because if he doesn't say so, some Jews will emphasize that salvation will be based on the Mosaic Law.

Covenants will not actually go away, they cover different groups of humans under different scopes such as those living in different ages. In effect even today's humans are born with an older covenant. New Covenant is not born with, but choosing when one becomes an adult. If one doesn't choose the New Covenant, he's under an older one. The Jews will be under the Mosaic covenant while gentiles may be under the one brought by Noah. The Bible won't go to more details on how they work, as it serves the purpose of saving humans by the New Covenant.

The New Covenant takes effect at the time of John the Baptist, thus no one shall proclaim the Old (Mosaic) covenant of the Jews, as at a certain point no one can be saved by the old covenant (whether it's Mosaic or the one of the gentiles).

The atonement offering can only be carried out inside the temple by Jewish laws. The temple in Jerusalem however was destructed in AD70. It says since that point, God no longer receives atonement offering from the Jews. Basically everyone shall be saved through Jesus Christ, both the Jews and the gentiles. Jesus is the Temple God built in three days.

But gentiles, don't be conceited!

Romans 11:25-26 (NIV2011)
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.


If gentiles insist on turning away from Jesus Christ, they will turn away from God at the same time. It doesn't make any sense for a gentile to believe in God but not Jesus, or believe in Jesus but not God. In that case, they die if they failed to pick the New Covenant.

However this may not be true for the Jews. Some Jews insist on being loyal to God but stiff-necked enough to reject Jesus Christ. Will they be saved? More likely or most of them deserve a NO. However this is not as absolute as the gentiles rejecting Jesus Christ!

In the end, New Covenant is about a fair (fairer than Law) judgment from God/Jesus Christ Himself. To me, Romans 11: 25-26 means "don't be conceited but leave that to God."

That said. My another speculation is that, after the Final Judgment there won't be any Jews. As Paul put, the New Covenant will bind both the Jews and gentiles together, we are all brothers and sisters. In that case the everlasting Jewish covenant would have no one under its scope even when it's still valid.

The only covenant left (possibly extending beyond the Final Judgment) would be the New Covenant cored on believing in Jesus Christ and God with faith, with all your heart and soul.

 

[mkgal1]

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

You also mentioned "universal commands" and said that came from God. That seems to be proving YeshuaHaDerekh's point that "wickedness is wickedness" and that's the basis which Sodom was judged by. Sodom was said to have committed these "crimes":

Ezekiel 16:49-50 ~ "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me, and when I saw this, I removed them.…​

On the other hand.....the Queen of Sheba in 1 Kings 10 (also a Gentile nation) believed God was the one true God (and was praised for her faith in Matthew 12:42).​

 

[ralliann]

You also mentioned "universal commands" and said that came from God. That seems to be proving YeshuaHaDerekh's point that "wickedness is wickedness" and that's the basis which Sodom was judged by. Sodom was said to have committed these "crimes":

Ezekiel 16:49-50 ~ "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me, and when I saw this, I removed them.…​

On the other hand.....the Queen of Sheba in 1 Kings 10 (also a Gentile nation) believed God was the one true God (and was praised for her faith in Matthew 12:42).​

What has any of this to do with the nation of Israel having law that was distinct to them from the Sinai covenant? I don't understand either one of you thinking Israel as no different than any other nation on the earth. So, is it wickedness to pick up sticks on the Sabbath? Is it wickedness to plant your field seven years in a row?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I gave the Sabbath as an example

33 And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste.
34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies’ land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.
35 As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.

Well yeah, there were certain curses associated with it, but my point was that before Sinai Nations were judged for their wickedness and sin...

 

[ralliann]

Well yeah, there were certain curses associated with it, but my point was that before Sinai Nations were judged for their wickedness and sin...

Yes I agree, and have said as much in this thread. But before Sinai it seems to be the righteous calling on God to judge the situation. I think the blood of the slain was crying out to God. Just as Abel's blood cried out. Otherwise God allowed the nations to become utterly full of sin. God sent Israel to utterly destroy them at that point.
But Israel had law that it was judged by that the nations did not. But Israel's sin only increased Gods grace in his continued faithfulness to perform his oath in the former covenant made with their fathers. And that oath concerns us Gentiles also in Christ.
Ga 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes I agree, and have said as much in this thread. But before Sinai it seems to be the righteous calling on God to judge the situation. I think the blood of the slain was crying out to God. Just as Abel's blood cried out. Otherwise God allowed the nations to become utterly full of sin. God sent Israel to utterly destroy them at that point.
But Israel had law that it was judged by that the nations did not. But Israel's sin only increased Gods grace in his continued faithfulness to perform his oath in the former covenant made with their fathers.

And we have Noakh's flood...where the whole world (ALL the Nations) were judged and destroyed!

 

[ralliann]

And we have Noakh's flood...where the whole world (ALL the Nations) were judged and destroyed!

Not the whole world, Noah and his son's were the remnant so to speak. But they would not listen to Noah.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith
Israel would not listen to the prophets either. They killed them.

 

[ralliann]

You also mentioned "universal commands" and said that came from God. That seems to be proving YeshuaHaDerekh's point that "wickedness is wickedness" and that's the basis which Sodom was judged by. Sodom was said to have committed these "crimes":

Ezekiel 16:49-50 ~ "Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy.Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me, and when I saw this, I removed them.​

I think you are confusing Israel being "spiritually called" Sodom, samaria, etc.

This is the problem with going to the figurative language of the prophets. Even Israel's sin is spoken of as spiritually and figuratively. Adultress, harlot etc.​

Re 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Isa. 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

21 How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.






​

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Not the whole world, Noah and his son's were the remnant so to speak. But they would not listen to Noah.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith
Israel would not listen to the prophets either. They killed them.

They were deemed righteous and faithful, yes.

 

[ralliann]

They were deemed righteous and faithful, yes.

Yes, apart from the law.

 

[mkgal1]

I think you are confusing Israel being "spiritually called" Sodom, samaria, etc.

This is the problem with going to the figurative language of the prophets. Even Israel's sin is spoken of as spiritually and figuratively. Adultress, harlot etc.​

I don't think so. Ezekiel's prophecy compares the Israelites to their "sister" Sodom.

Why do you suppose Jerusalem was figuratively referred to as Egypt & Sodom in Revelation?

 

[ralliann]

I don't think so. Ezekiel's prophecy compares the Israelites to their "sister" Sodom.

Why do you suppose Jerusalem was figuratively referred to as Egypt & Sodom in Revelation?

Because Israel and Judah have been referred to that way in the prophets just as I quoted. Why? Not being faithful to the Sinai covenant and it's law.
First the kingdom of Israel..
Jer 3:6 The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.
Second the kingdom of Judah...
Jer 3:7 And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.
Jer 3:8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.
Jer 3:10 And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

Not only Sodom and Egypt but also these
Eze 16:45 Thou art thy mother’s daughter, that lotheth her husband and her children; and thou art the sister of thy sisters, which lothed their husbands and their children: your mother was an Hittite, and your father an Amorite.
Eze 16:46 And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.
Prophetically (by the inspiration of the holy spirit) they spoke of the two kingdoms of Israel and Judah, as sisters.