Does Matthew 22:14 prove Calvinism and Predestination?

[Dave L]

This does not prove your doctrine. Peter says that the spirit is given to those who obey (Acts 5:32). It comes after belief and obedience, not prior to. So this faith here, is not the same faith required for salvation. Can't be. It is the evidence that a person is walking in the faith. It is the continued obedience of a person who is a believer, not a cause of obedience against his will.

In Ephesians Paul actually commands us to be filled with the Spirit (5:18). A command! And then he explains how it is done. By being obedient to Jesus' commands. He uses the same language in Colossians but instead of saying be filled with the spirit, he says "let the word of God dwell in you richly." Thus he equates being filled with the spirit to letting the word dwell in you, reconciling what Jesus said about this.

"The words I speak are spirit and they are life."

But Faith is a fruit of the Spirit we become full of through repentance.

 

[nolidad]

That’s a ridiculous assumption, that Jesus would give her time to repent while she was incapable of repentance. I can’t even stress how ridiculous that is.

Then one must conclude that you must believe repenting is not a good thing, nor is a spiritual thing, nor something God commands!

Romans 8:7-8 King James Version (KJV)
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Corinthians 2:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

It is not me you have a prblem with, but God who declared these things!

 

[nolidad]

It does say that, but obviously you have no idea what that means. Every man is in his flesh from the day he is born to the day he dies.

Paul explained that to be of the spirit you had to set your mind on the spirit.

It is not I but you who does not know what Paul is saying! memorize verse 9 and learn Gods Word!

Romans 8:6-10 King James Version (KJV)
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

The word is "sarx" which can mean the flesh body or the fallen dead to God human nature! Context determines definition! And here it is the human nature!

 

[nolidad]

You are ignoring the definition that pertains to something that is attached to anything which is the situation with branches attached to the vine because you believe that no one who is in Christ can fall away. But what about verse 6 that specifically says that some will not abide/remain in Christ?

Well you almost got it right! Let us look at verse 6.

Verse 2: 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Verse 6: 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Once again, the primary definition of airo is to lift up. Everyone Jesus spoke this too would understand Jesus to say that the branches IN HIM (key phrase) that is not bearing fruit, He lifts up.

Now verse 6, branches that are not in Him, (not is important) are tossed.

Given the rest of the verses where Jesus and the Apostlesd promise eternal security- and the fact that one who is in Christ is dead and their life is hidden in Christ, and is already perfected forever, and seated with Christ. You cannot use the tertiary definition. Once again the primary is to be used unless it does not fit! That is grammar!

Sorry, but the Bible does not declare a God who is ready to toss His children aside if they don't measure up to some man made system of good works!

 

[nolidad]

Here’s another example of what happens to those who do not bear fruit.


“And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Yep! Just like the parable of the sower and the seeds and the four grounds the seed was sown on!

But you cannot make doctrine from parables, for they simply are spun stories to help explain spiritual realities.

But let us look at the olive tree. It has borne no fruit! It is not a vine growing on the ground and the pores get clogged so it cannot bear fruit, so the farmer elevates the vine, the pores are cleansed and it bears fruit (that is how that works) This is a barren lifeless tree! Give it one more try and if it doesn't come alive- it is dead!

Just like th eparable of the wheat and tares and Matt. 7 about people who look religious but were never saved!

 

[Al Touthentop]

But Faith is a fruit of the Spirit we become full of through repentance.

Repentance is obedience to a command of God. The spirit comes, just as Peter says, after obedience. Please stop arguing with Jesus and his apostles and disciples.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Well you almost got it right! Let us look at verse 6.

Verse 2: 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

!

Nice of you to completely ignore what he says there.

 

[Dave L]

Repentance is obedience to a command of God. The spirit comes, just as Peter says, after obedience. Please stop arguing with Jesus and his apostles and disciples.

But, having the Holy Spirit precedes having faith.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Yep! Just like the parable of the sower and the seeds and the four grounds the seed was sown on!

But you cannot make doctrine from parables, for they simply are spun stories to help explain spiritual realities.

Jesus described his doctrine through parables so that "seeing they may see, and hearing they may not understand."

Those who argued with their meaning and refused to accept them, well they are in that blind and deaf category. Don't be one of those people and claim that all Jesus was doing was spinning stories. What a callous disregard for his teaching that is.

 

[Al Touthentop]

But, having the Holy Spirit precedes having faith.

That's exactly the opposite of what Peter told the Sanhedrin and what he told those who asked him what they must do on the day of Pentecost. Why do you gainsay Peter? What on earth would give you the authority to do that?

 

[Dave L]

That's exactly the opposite of what Peter told the Sanhedrin and what he told those who asked him what they must do on the day of Pentecost. Why do you gainsay Peter? What on earth would give you the authority to do that?

They were believers (saved Jews) who asked Peter because they were saved, believers. They would have not asked if they weren't saved believers. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life.

 

[Al Touthentop]

They were believers (saved Jews) who asked Peter because they were saved, believers. They would have not asked if they weren't saved believers. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life.

You are gainsaying. There isn't a word or letter in Acts 2 or elsewhere that suggests those people were saved before they even knew Peter's answer. The passage implies the opposite. As a matter of fact, Peter was lying to them, you say. Peter said that what they must do would result in their receiving the gift of the Holy Sprit. He didn't say that they already had it. If they already were saved, and if works don't save anyone, he would have answered their question, "nothing. You do nothing. Because you're already saved and if I tell you to do something, I will have destroyed God's grace."

"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things I tell you to do?'

 

[Paul4JC]

Did I miss something. Doesn't Matthew 22:14 in proper context starts in Matthew 21:23,[URL='https://biblehub.com/matthew/21-45.htm'] 45 [/URL]? He's speaking to the the chief priests and Pharisees right?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Did I miss something. Doesn't Matthew 22:14 in proper context starts in Matthew 21:23, 45 ? He's speaking to the the chief priests and Pharisees right?

Right.

 

[Al Touthentop]

They were believers (saved Jews) who asked Peter because they were saved, believers. They would have not asked if they weren't saved believers. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life.

We agree that they were believers. But they believed the words that were spoken to them of their own will. And as a result of that, they wanted to know how they could absolve themselves of the guilt of crucifying their messiah. Their belief eventually saved them and that's the way the gospel works. But they weren't saved right then. Had your doctrine any merit, Peter would have rebuked them for asking what they must do. "If I tell you to do something, I will have destroyed your faith and will repudiate the grace of God! Go and sin so that God's grace may abound"

 

[bbbbbbb]

We agree that they were believers. But they believed the words that were spoken to them of their own will. And as a result of that, they wanted to know how they could absolve themselves of the guilt of crucifying their messiah. Their belief eventually saved them and that's the way the gospel works. But they weren't saved right then. Had your doctrine any merit, Peter would have rebuked them for asking what they must do. "If I tell you to do something, I will have destroyed your faith and will repudiate the grace of God! Go and sin so that God's grace may abound"

Actually, if one were to completely embrace fatalism, Peter would not have bothered to open his mouth in the first place, trusting God completely to have saved His elect people without needing any such interference as Peter's preaching.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Actually, if one were to completely embrace fatalism, Peter would not have bothered to open his mouth in the first place, trusting God completely to have saved His elect people without needing any such interference as Peter's preaching.

Winnah, winnah, chicken dinnah.

And Jesus wouldn't have commanded him to preach just before he ascended.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Winnah, winnah, chicken dinnah.

And Jesus wouldn't have commanded him to preach just before he ascended.

 

[Dave L]

We agree that they were believers. But they believed the words that were spoken to them of their own will. And as a result of that, they wanted to know how they could absolve themselves of the guilt of crucifying their messiah. Their belief eventually saved them and that's the way the gospel works. But they weren't saved right then. Had your doctrine any merit, Peter would have rebuked them for asking what they must do. "If I tell you to do something, I will have destroyed your faith and will repudiate the grace of God! Go and sin so that God's grace may abound"

?

 

[nolidad]

Nice of you to completely ignore what he says there.

I do not ignore what Jesus says here, but what mens opinion says about what Jesus actually said!

We agree that they were believers. But they believed the words that were spoken to them of their own will. And as a result of that, they wanted to know how they could absolve themselves of the guilt of crucifying their messiah. Their belief eventually saved them and that's the way the gospel works. But they weren't saved right then. Had your doctrine any merit, Peter would have rebuked them for asking what they must do. "If I tell you to do something, I will have destroyed your faith and will repudiate the grace of God! Go and sin so that God's grace may abound"

Why do you constantly misquote SCriptures?? Is it because you love your own opinion more than Gods actual Words?

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

They wanted remission of their sins not a sin of crucifying Jesus!

And though we are commanded to learn to grow in holiness the Bible does say this about grace and sin:
Romans 5:
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6 King James Version (KJV)
6 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

No mattter how you cut it--where sin abounds grace does much more abound! that is the depth of grace God has for His children. But to make sure you do not accuse me of preaching a license to sin, grace that saves also teaches us to deny unglodliness and live holy- but when we fail, grace does not see our sin, because they were paid for by the blood of Jesus!