Is a skeptic missing the compassionate part of their being, while only focusing on logic?

[createdtoworship]

CTW, the forum "belongs" equally to all registered members and of course it's natural we all assert a viewpoint.

Everyone else, CTW mentioned Hitler cited Spencer's "survival of the fittest" which is fair to point out in general, though I didn't see why he thought it apposite to his reasoning on this thread.

YES! I have never said that someone does not belong, or is breaking rules. No rules are being broken by making it open to skeptics, I actually like it myself. But I know many do not. So they need safe zones where skeptics cannot belittle or attack their faith. And as I have shown, many struggle with the temptation to mock. It's difficult to be nice when someone is right and you are simply wrong. It's easier to use fallacy and any other way to NOT deal with the logic at hand. Saying believing the bible is like believing in the easter bunny, or believing in Christ's miracles are no different than greek mythology that you teach in childrens books, I mean there are all sorts of recipes for being rude. I have just come to accept it. If a skeptic is mature and nice to me when debating, I look at it like a rarity. And really cherish those types. They do exist, but they are rare.

 

[Ken-1122]

YES! I have never said that someone does not belong, or is breaking rules. No rules are being broken by making it open to skeptics, I actually like it myself. But I know many do not. So they need safe zones where skeptics cannot belittle or attack their faith. And as I have shown, many struggle with the temptation to mock. It's difficult to be nice when someone is right and you are simply wrong. It's easier to use fallacy and any other way to NOT deal with the logic at hand. Saying believing the bible is like believing in the easter bunny, or believing in Christ's miracles are no different than greek mythology that you teach in childrens books, I mean there are all sorts of recipes for being rude. I have just come to accept it. If a skeptic is mature and nice to me when debating, I look at it like a rarity. And really cherish those types. They do exist, but they are rare.

I think you need to realize when you say Christianity makes you live your best life, that claim is offensive to those who are not Christian. When you say Skeptics cannot be kind, or if they are mature it is a rarity; these statements are very offensive to Skeptics who are kind and mature. Much of what you say is very offensive, but you are probably oblivious to this because these are things you simply believe to be true!
By the same token, when a skeptic says to believe the miracles of Jesus is the same as believing Greek Mythology, thought you as a Christian will find this offensive, he isn’t trying to offend you, he is stating something he believes to be true!
So when a skeptic says something about your belief system you find offensive, understand that much of what you say is offensive also; it kinda goes both ways.

 

[Amittai]

Please can you address the points in the portions of the matter quoted in my post 187:

Is a skeptic missing the compassionate part of their being, while only focusing on logic?

which were from a thread on evangelisation.

 

[createdtoworship]

Thank you for giving your inspiring testimony. As this is the ethics of evangelisation I am interested how your congregation supports you.

In this thread under "general theology":

Great Commission: Personal Evangelism

I think evangelism is meant to be a 'body ministry' not an individual sport.

All should be involved in some capacity to see the great commission accomplished but not all do the evangelising.

When folks learn to reach out in groups then gifts He gives the body come into play with much more fruit.

A great verse to meditate on is "The seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace."

Blessings,
Carl Emerson.

My perspective is
It is not for 'every believer.'
- You need some level of 'spiritual maturity.'
- Also, being sensitive / led by His Spirit is essential.
Saying this from my experience.

(Pioneer3mm)

I think it is not a duty, but something that every disciple of Jesus does freely and willingly by living as Jesus taught.

(1213)

You are either sowing good seed or bad seed, but never no seed.

(bling)

In Christianity we all do evangelism whether we think we're doing it or not. We may not understand it, we may even do negative evangelism but we all do it which makes us all evangelist ...

(?)

.................................................................

what do you think of those five replies?

They are all good answers. I think evangelism is a wide topic. It could range from giving someone a cold glass of water on a hot day, to answering questions regarding God on the internet. Evangelism happens in lots of ways, there is no easy answer. I hope that helps.

 

[Amittai]

They are all good answers. I think evangelism is a wide topic. It could range from giving someone a cold glass of water on a hot day, to answering questions regarding God on the internet. Evangelism happens in lots of ways, there is no easy answer. I hope that helps.

Why do you think your congregation has to dump the entire burden on you? Are not the gifts shared out throughout the Body? Life is tough anyway - shouldn't we be wary of wearing ourselves out in order to impress our overly demanding superiors?

 

[createdtoworship]

Why do you think your congregation has to dump the entire burden on you? Are not the gifts shared out throughout the Body? Life is tough anyway - shouldn't we be wary of wearing ourselves out in order to impress our overly demanding superiors?

Sir that is off topic for this thread, however if you desire to message me about it I don't mind. This is my last post on evangelism in this thread as to steer this thread away. However, evangelism is everyone's burden. But I think moreso the trend now days is to either focus the evangelism on the parishioners or the pastors but not both. I believe it should be everyone's responsibility. But I actually enjoy topics about God myself. I love God so much it would hurt me to not talk about the thing that saved me from my addictions and my sin.

 

[MehGuy]

I also addressed this as well, I literally failed out of English class most of my life. I have ADD as well as a basket of other mental illness. As I said. So grammar and formatting are not something that I currently have the ability to do. I apologize. But don't let that hinder you from reading or gleaning from my logical arguments.

You can still make an effort to at least space things out. Much more preferable to read even if not done in the "correct" way. This is coming from a guy who was given an unspecified language disability as a child and had to be in special programs for basic grammar and whatnot.

 

[MehGuy]

I think it is a perspective issue. Most skeptics are good people. As someone who was once deeply spiritual as a Christian I can understand the mindset of "skeptics" appearing as heartless and mean people. I used to have this mindset when I was a theist. Only to later understand that is was not really cruelty and malleolus on their part, but simply many skeptics have never really been very spiritual in the past. They simply don't understand how sensitive some theists can be about the subject.

Given my spiritual history, I tend to be much more gentle when conversing with theists. Although after a decade of being an atheist I see myself sadly becoming less sensitive on the topic, as I'm forgetting more and more by the year what being hyper spiritual is like.

 

[createdtoworship]

You can still make an effort to at least space things out. Much more preferable to read even if not done in the "correct" way. This is coming from a guy who was given an unspecified language disability as a child and had to be in special programs for basic grammar and whatnot.

well for me the risk to reward is not good enough. I invest in things that are exciting, I have ADD so I typically just type and whatever comes out comes out. I have actually been debating on twitter, which limits your text and that has been fun. So I guess if you don't like the long debates here, meet up with me there, and all my arguments are more precise. But that is because I have to. I don't have a choice.

I think it is a perspective issue. Most skeptics are good people. As someone who was once deeply spiritual as a Christian I can understand the mindset of "skeptics" appearing as heartless and mean people. I used to have this mindset when I was a theist. Only to later understand that is was not really cruelty and malleolus on their part, but simply many skeptics have never really been very spiritual in the past. They simply don't understand how sensitive some theists can be about the subject.

Given my spiritual history, I tend to be much more gentle when conversing with theists. Although after a decade of being an atheist I see myself sadly becoming less sensitive on the topic, as I'm forgetting more and more by the year what being hyper spiritual is like.

I was debating one guy about evolution and then he told me today that He is christian, but He doesn't believe the initial cause of the universe was God. So I really don't understand where he is at in all of this. But nevertheless I don't doubt some people have a walk with God, but unfortunately if they haven't repented of sin and believed the gospel they are not saved. God can bless someone for years, and answer prayer and all of that. And they may not even be saved. So it's important to know where you are in your walk Am I just religious, or am I saved? I think there is a difference, and all of the skeptics that I have interviewed about christianity not working for them, I asked simply.....' did you repent? Did you follow the commands?' none of them said yes. So of course it didn't work. Commands are not burdensome, they are liberating. See you can go out on a balcony with no rail, but you will avoid the edge, but go up on the empire state building that has solid rails, and you will lean out over the edge and wave your arms. See the boundaries actually freed you. There was a military academy that was one of the best in the world, and it had the strictest requirements. I mean they had all sorts of rules to follow. And the speaker that said he interviewed the students, and they were happier and more joyful than any of the other university students he interviewed in the US. The boundaries gave them joy. So too, with Christ boundaries are not to limit you, but the rails are there so you can press into God and not fear falling. You have so much more freedom. I don't fear what porn does to my brain over a long term exposure, because I don't watch it. I don't fear STD's because I don't sleep around. I don't fear alcoholism, or a shot liver, because when I drink it's minimal, if at all. I don't fear methamphetamine addiction or side effects or withdrawals because I don't entertain it. All those things I don't do, but I am so much more freer. I have no worries.

 

[MehGuy]

well for me the risk to reward is not good enough. I invest in things that are exciting, I have ADD so I typically just type and whatever comes out comes out. I have actually been debating on twitter, which limits your text and that has been fun. So I guess if you don't like the long debates here, meet up with me there, and all my arguments are more precise. But that is because I have to. I don't have a choice.

Not quite sure what you're saying here... life is too short to press the "enter" key a few times? Lol.

It isn't the amount of text that is the problem, it is the formatting. For most people, a wall of text is painful to read and can be hard to follow. I can understand having a frantic mind, but breaking up your text into sections shouldn't be difficult at all.

I was debating one guy about evolution and then he told me today that He is christian, but He doesn't believe the initial cause of the universe was God. So I really don't understand where he is at in all of this. But nevertheless I don't doubt some people have a walk with God, but unfortunately if they haven't repented of sin and believed the gospel they are not saved. God can bless someone for years, and answer prayer and all of that. And they may not even be saved. So it's important to know where you are in your walk Am I just religious, or am I saved? I think there is a difference, and all of the skeptics that I have interviewed about christianity not working for them, I asked simply.....' did you repent? Did you follow the commands?' none of them said yes. So of course it didn't work. Commands are not burdensome, they are liberating. See you can go out on a balcony with no rail, but you will avoid the edge, but go up on the empire state building that has solid rails, and you will lean out over the edge and wave your arms. See the boundaries actually freed you. There was a military academy that was one of the best in the world, and it had the strictest requirements. I mean they had all sorts of rules to follow. And the speaker that said he interviewed the students, and they were happier and more joyful than any of the other university students he interviewed in the US. The boundaries gave them joy. So too, with Christ boundaries are not to limit you, but the rails are there so you can press into God and not fear falling. You have so much more freedom. I don't fear what porn does to my brain over a long term exposure, because I don't watch it. I don't fear STD's because I don't sleep around. I don't fear alcoholism, or a shot liver, because when I drink it's minimal, if at all. I don't fear methamphetamine addiction or side effects or withdrawals because I don't entertain it. All those things I don't do, but I am so much more freer. I have no worries.

Depends on the skeptic. Most people don't take religion too seriously but some have. You should look up Matt Dillahunty. He was studying to become a pastor, only to lose his faith after analyzing the Bible. I like him not just because he's a terrific speaker and debater, but he is someone who seems to understands the mindset of a committed Christian. Not to fault other skeptics, but there can be a divide with those who were never really religious and those who once were.

 

[createdtoworship]

Not quite sure what you're saying here... life is too short to press the "enter" key a few times? Lol.

It isn't the amount of text that is the problem, it is the formatting. For most people, a wall of text is painful to read and can be hard to follow. I can understand having a frantic mind, but breaking up your text into sections shouldn't be difficult at all.



Depends on the skeptic. Most people don't take religion too seriously but some have. You should look up Matt Dillahunty. He was studying to become a pastor, only to lose his faith after analyzing the Bible. I like him not just because he's a terrific speaker and debater, but he is someone who seems to understands the mindset of a committed Christian. Not to fault other skeptics, but there can be a divide with those who were never really religious and those who once were.

oh I know plenty of skeptics that doubt the scripture. After all I am a skeptic at heart myself. I debated theology for about 5 years in the theology threads, it was probably harder on me than debating outright atheists. Why do you think I would rather talk to ya'll then my own kind? Christians can be sort of rude if you are not exactly like them, and if your theology is different, they can get quite upset. But that is neither here nor there. I should tell you, I found that most of Christ's teachings were about social evils and rarely about empowering the corporations and military machines of the US government. Needless to say, I had a best friend that is a moderator here, he literally won't talk to me since I became a moderate republican over being far right. He was so offended by me that he literally can't stand to talk to me anymore. See I am not like that. If someone is far right or far left, I don't really care. It's not my view, it's theirs. They can believe whatever they want. But I have that affect on people I suppose. As one skeptic pointed out here, maybe it's just me. Maybe people don't like the way I think, that may be why they don't like what I say. But from my perspective, it's hard to find skeptics that don't resort to name calling, and do not use ad hominem attack. But I actually like the talks, it hones my debate skills and I learn alot. For example today I learned more about genus's. That some of them can't cross produce different species of the same genus. I would not have known that if I didn't debate.

 

[MehGuy]

oh I know plenty of skeptics that doubt the scripture. After all I am a skeptic at heart myself. I debated theology for about 5 years in the theology threads, it was probably harder on me than debating outright atheists.

My point being that some skeptics like Matt Dillahunty have legitimately tired to seek out Christianity and make it work in their lives, only to earnestly fail.

Why do you think I would rather talk to ya'll then my own kind? Christians can be sort of rude if you are not exactly like them, and if your theology is different, they can get quite upset.

That's true for almost anything. Feminists hating other feminists, people who like dressing up as animals hating other people dressing up as animals for trivial reasons. Part of human nature, lol.

But that is neither here nor there. I should tell you, I found that most of Christ's teachings were about social evils and rarely about empowering the corporations and military machines of the US government. Needless to say, I had a best friend that is a moderator here, he literally won't talk to me since I became a moderate republican over being far right. He was so offended by me that he literally can't stand to talk to me anymore. See I am not like that. If someone is far right or far left, I don't really care. It's not my view, it's theirs. They can believe whatever they want.

Yeah, and even atheists can respect Jesus's teachings. As an atheist myself, I'm still into Christianity and find certain Christians inspiring.

But I have that affect on people I suppose. As one skeptic pointed out here, maybe it's just me. Maybe people don't like the way I think, that may be why they don't like what I say. But from my perspective, it's hard to find skeptics that don't resort to honest debate, and not use ad hominem attack.

Well like you said earlier you suffer with some mental illness. Admittedly from reading some of your posts you are hard to follow. This isn't a jab, I just want to convince you that others are not as malicious as you might think and maybe to think about presenting yourself in a different more commutatively friendly manner.

 

[createdtoworship]

My point being that some skeptics like Matt Dillahunty have legitimately tired to seek out Christianity and make it work in their lives, only to earnestly fail.

I know exactly why it didn't work for him, but I won't get theological here. But it's a form of apostacy, it's unfortunately very common.

That's true for almost anything. Feminists hating other feminists, people who like dressing up as animals hating other people dressing up as animals for trivial reasons. Part of human nature, lol.

Yes!

Yeah, and even atheists can respect Jesus's teachings. As an atheist myself, I'm still into Christianity and find certain Christians inspiring.

I find it interesting the most people know Jesus was not about war, yet christians love to support right wing militantism.

Well like you said earlier you suffer with some mental illness. Admittedly from reading some of your posts you are hard to follow. This isn't a jab, I just want to convince you that others are not as malicious as you might think and maybe to think about presenting yourself in a different more commutatively friendly manner.

some of it is self defense. When someone makes front of you in front of other people how does it make you feel? Embarrassed? Maybe a desire to close off? Well me too. But in order to combat that emotion, I just go into logical mode. and as a result part of my emotion gets closed off, and I can handle the mockings and rude comments slightly better. It's coping mechanism, that was created from debating skeptics that were rude. That is not an excuse, I don't want to be cold or dissassociate with patience or kindness or gentleness. So it's literally a fight I have. So I stay in nice mode, or do I go into logical mode, where the other side of my brain is working, while the artsy feely side of my brain is off line? Call it a mental illness, I really don't know. I tend to think of it as moving from being right brained to left brained.

 

[MehGuy]

I know exactly why it didn't work for him, but I won't get theological here. But it's a form of apostacy, it's unfortunately very common.

Alright. He seems like a genuine guy to me.

I find it interesting the most people know Jesus was not about war, yet christians love to support right wing militantism.

Admittedly it is funny and strange. Although when you realize a core aspect of Jesus's teachings was empathy and you realize empathy in the real world can result in sadism and aggression the connection makes more and more sense.

Depending if you're an annihilist or not, Jesus spoke about loving your neighbor but the aspect of hell and eternal torment is still there. Even within the scriptures two sides of the empathy coin seem to be present.

some of it is self defense. When someone makes front of you in front of other people how does it make you feel? Embarrassed? Maybe a desire to close off? Well me too. But in order to combat that emotion, I just go into logical mode. and as a result part of my emotion gets closed off, and I can handle the mockings and rude comments slightly better. It's coping mechanism, that was created from debating skeptics that were rude. That is not an excuse, I don't want to be cold or dissassociate with patience or kindness or gentleness. So it's literally a fight I have. So I stay in nice mode, or do I go into logical mode, where the other side of my brain is working, while the artsy feely side of my brain is off line? Call it a mental illness, I really don't know. I tend to think of it as moving from being right brained to left brained.

As someone who seems to be self aware that they have mental issues, don't you wonder that it might cloud your thinking? And that others are simply reacting towards that?

 

[createdtoworship]

Alright. He seems like a genuine guy to me.

well I think it's not an intellectual issue, lets just say that much. if you have contact info for me, I can email him or whatever, I dont' mind debating him. (message it to me).

Admittedly it is funny and strange. Although when you realize a core aspect of Jesus's teachings was empathy and you realize empathy in the real world can result in sadism and aggression the connection makes more and more sense.

Depending if you're an annihilist or not, Jesus spoke about loving your neighbor

yeah I know. But I was perfectly fine trying to find verses about Jesus allowing us to carry military grade weapons a few years ago. For now I feel that my current theory is that we can do self defense. Jesus allowed the disciples to buy a short sword (not a military long sword), it was for defense not offense. So I feel that that is still the case, I think it's not immoral to own a gun or a rifle as long as they are not 'military grade.' (and I realize that is quite a topic of debate, and I am not an expert on that). Now morally speaking I do take exception with lethality in general....for instance killing an intruder instead of just spraying him with pepper spray or a pepper gel or a tazer. But that is another topic.

but the aspect of hell and eternal torment is still there. Even within the scriptures two sides of the empathy coin seem to be present.

Well God himself at least in my opinion can get quite upset at wickedness. And rightly so. After all imagine giving your created beings free will and they use that free will to curse you, to worship false gods, and to laugh at your commands. That would make me quite upset myself, I would wipe out the lot of them and not attempt that mistake again. I would just make robots with a program to do that right thing, maybe create one in the middle with a free will, no doubt he would be the wicked in the lot. But I Would not make all beings have free will. That is setting yourself up for failure. But God is up for the challenge, and I really respect and honor that choice because I would not be here if it wasn't that way. But hell is an interesting concept. It's eternal meaning it's beyond time and space of our universe. I believe our souls are all eternal, that is they lack mass and thus have no affects of time on it's mass. Time only affects mass and only slows down or speeds up mass (according to relitivity). So if a soul is massless, it's eternal. That means they are created in eternity at a timeless event, and never die. So how to you punish a soul? Well of course with an eternal prison. Now the torment and torture of hell can get tricky to explain and for that I would recommend reading post one of my thread on the logical case for eternal hell (Here)

As someone who seems to be self aware that they have mental issues, don't you wonder that it might cloud your thinking? And that others are simply reacting towards that?

my mental issues are just ADD really. It just means that I don't take the time to edit, because as someone with ADD knows, if it's not truly exciting to me, it's not worth the pain to put my brain through that, to sit and proof read. But I can say things I don't mean to say, and so I typically will read a post twice, especially if I am in a debate over issues, sometimes I have to read it four or more times. But just tacking on grammatical rules to it, is just too much. I don't expect you to understand, and you may even disagree entirely with me on that, and I am ok with that. I don't expect you to understand something you don't have. But I have been healed of paranoia. I literally thought my kids were robots, that the government was after me, and that people spoke to me in my mind through morse code, and I heard voices of famous people in my mind. God healed me completely of that illness. I can still hear the voices but God allowed me to realize which are real voices and which are not. So now that I know which are real, I can silence the imaginary ones and ignore them, but they never really went away. But most with skitsophrenia, don't work again, they just go on disability. And I actually applied, but after about six months, I was healed and I was fully able to work. I also got healed of homosexuality. Which occurred at the same time the nervous breakdown happened. I can simulate the way my mind worked when I was in a nervous breakdown and I can get feelings again for other males if I wanted to. God allowed me to still access these things because of my free will. He is saying, if you want homosexuality you can have it, if you want paranoia the voices are there, just listen to them you can have those too. My difference with the guy you mention is that I don't want my sin, I don't want my disease, I want the saviour. But the problem with that guy you said left the faith, is one day he decided not to fight anymore. His sin became too tempting, and the risk of not being able to sin was not worth the reward of this confusing theology he was going through. But the straw that broke the camels back was that he wanted to live his life without God. Because it was more pleasurable. You would be suprised at those who doubt scripture, and when it boils down to it, its some sin that they desire, and because they want that sin, it's so addictive....they make up excuses and think....oh well the Bible doesn't make sense anyway. But that is just a side issue. The real issue is they lost the battle against sin. Jesus can forgive us of all of our sin, but it's up to us to "go and sin no more lest a worst thing happen to us" John 5:14

"Any concept of grace that makes us feel more comfortable sinning is not biblical grace. God's grace never encourages us to live in sin, on the contrary, it empowers us to say no to sin and yes to truth." -Randy Alcorn

 

[HitchSlap]

fair enough. I am not here to convince you of anything you are not ready to accept. Take care brudda.

I have developed compassion in a much deeper way since I was a Christian. When I was a believer, I used it as an excuse to judge others. Now, I see everyone as sharing the same needs, hopes and desires as I do. It's refreshing. Being atheist made me a much better human.

 

[createdtoworship]

I have developed compassion in a much deeper way since I was a Christian. When I was a believer, I used it as an excuse to no judge others. Now, I see everyone as sharing the same needs, hopes and desires as I do. It's refreshing. Being atheist made me a much better human.

I am glad that it helped you. I am genuinely glad for anything that helps someone. For me Christ allowed me to break free from addiction that otherwise would still have a hold on me. Pornography, self gratification, over eating, homosexuality and other mental illness. I am so free from the things that bind, I don't know what to do with my time. Used to binge watch movies, now I read books and listen to seminars. My current seminar I am watching is one by texas A&M university college christian group on having pure thoughts and overcomming pornography ( I like to help other people over come now).....here it is, it's good in general for any man to watch even if they don't like the Bible that is referenced, still the illustrations are good....

Sex on the Front Lawn

 

[MehGuy]

well I think it's not an intellectual issue, lets just say that much. if you have contact info for me, I can email him or whatever, I dont' mind debating him. (message it to me).

He's frequently on a show called the Atheist Experience (YouTube) every Sunday. You can call in then. If you do let us know, I'd be interested in viewing it.

yeah I know. But I was perfectly fine trying to find verses about Jesus allowing us to carry military grade weapons a few years ago. For now I feel that my current theory is that we can do self defense. Jesus allowed the disciples to buy a short sword (not a military long sword), it was for defense not offense. So I feel that that is still the case, I think it's not immoral to own a gun or a rifle as long as they are not 'military grade.' (and I realize that is quite a topic of debate, and I am not an expert on that). Now morally speaking I do take exception with lethality in general....for instance killing an intruder instead of just spraying him with pepper spray or a pepper gel or a tazer. But that is another topic.

I am more talking about conservative right wing Christians. Those who are for the death penalty and whatnot. A segment of Christianity I grew up in. On the surface they may seem un-Christ like. Yet psychologically I think they are similar.

Jesus's teaching largely seem to center around having empathy for your fellow man. Sounds good on the surface, but in reality being highly empathetic can result in anger and hostility. I remember they did a study once gauging people on their sensitivity towards those who died in the 9/11 terrorist attacks. They found those who were more empathetic (able to imagine what the victims went through) who died in the attacks were more likely to be in favor of warfare with countries in the middle east. They were more eager for vengeance.

Makes sense. A father who is highly empathetic with his children and wife who are murdered by someone is more likely to act sadistic in retaliation compared to a more psychopathic (low/no empathy) personality who does not feel much empathy for his wife and children. The same ability that makes one emotional to be compassionate to others can make one emotional to avenge others.

You see this anywhere empathy is extremely valued. Like social justice warrior circles. Judgmental, hateful, retaliating sentiments develop, in contrast to their walk on eggshells always accompanying often patronizing attitude towards women and minorities. Also a victim (slave morality) culture. A major reason I went to the more anti-sjw camp is because I recognized the actions and sentiments they displayed as resembling my theistic upbringing.

Well God himself at least in my opinion can get quite upset at wickedness. And rightly so. After all imagine giving your created beings free will and they use that free will to curse you, to worship false gods, and to laugh at your commands. That would make me quite upset myself, I would wipe out the lot of them and not attempt that mistake again. I would just make robots with a program to do that right thing, maybe create one in the middle with a free will, no doubt he would be the wicked in the lot. But I Would not make all beings have free will. That is setting yourself up for failure. But God is up for the challenge, and I really respect and honor that choice because I would not be here if it wasn't that way. But hell is an interesting concept. It's eternal meaning it's beyond time and space of our universe. I believe our souls are all eternal, that is they lack mass and thus have no affects of time on it's mass. Time only affects mass and only slows down or speeds up mass (according to relitivity). So if a soul is massless, it's eternal. That means they are created in eternity at a timeless event, and never die. So how to you punish a soul? Well of course with an eternal prison. Now the torment and torture of hell can get tricky to explain and for that I would recommend reading post one of my thread on the logical case for eternal hell (Here)

Yep. The interesting dichotomy of empathy stressed in Christianity. On one extreme having strong empathy for your enemy by turning the other cheek, while on the other thinking your enemy deserves eternal hellfire. On one hand you are using empathy to be extremely sensitive about your enemy's plight, on the other you are being extremely sensitive about your enemy's transgressions. Both extremely polarizing sentiments can exist within one individuals psychology.

my mental issues are just ADD really. It just means that I don't take the time to edit, because as someone with ADD knows, if it's not truly exciting to me, it's not worth the pain to put my brain through that, to sit and proof read. But I can say things I don't mean to say, and so I typically will read a post twice, especially if I am in a debate over issues, sometimes I have to read it four or more times. But just tacking on grammatical rules to it, is just too much. I don't expect you to understand, and you may even disagree entirely with me on that, and I am ok with that. I don't expect you to understand something you don't have. But I have been healed of paranoia. I literally thought my kids were robots, that the government was after me, and that people spoke to me in my mind through morse code, and I heard voices of famous people in my mind. God healed me completely of that illness. I can still hear the voices but God allowed me to realize which are real voices and which are not. So now that I know which are real, I can silence the imaginary ones and ignore them, but they never really went away. But most with skitsophrenia, don't work again, they just go on disability. And I actually applied, but after about six months, I was healed and I was fully able to work. I also got healed of homosexuality. Which occurred at the same time the nervous breakdown happened. I can simulate the way my mind worked when I was in a nervous breakdown and I can get feelings again for other males if I wanted to. God allowed me to still access these things because of my free will. He is saying, if you want homosexuality you can have it, if you want paranoia the voices are there, just listen to them you can have those too. My difference with the guy you mention is that I don't want my sin, I don't want my disease, I want the saviour. But the problem with that guy you said left the faith, is one day he decided not to fight anymore. His sin became too tempting, and the risk of not being able to sin was not worth the reward of this confusing theology he was going through. But the straw that broke the camels back was that he wanted to live his life without God. Because it was more pleasurable. You would be suprised at those who doubt scripture, and when it boils down to it, its some sin that they desire, and because they want that sin, it's so addictive....they make up excuses and think....oh well the Bible doesn't make sense anyway. But that is just a side issue. The real issue is they lost the battle against sin. Jesus can forgive us of all of our sin, but it's up to us to "go and sin no more lest a worst thing happen to us" John 5:14

"Any concept of grace that makes us feel more comfortable sinning is not biblical grace. God's grace never encourages us to live in sin, on the contrary, it empowers us to say no to sin and yes to truth." -Randy Alcorn

Yet you still admit you hear voices. I recommend you see a professional.

You are able to pace out your posts, as evidence of your other posts. Do not use your ADD as a crutch. I was born with language disabilities and probably suffer through ADD myself but I am able to make my posts readable to the best of my abilities. If you value your opinions you should also value them enough to want to make them readable to your audience. Avoiding walls of text is the least you can do.
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[createdtoworship]

He's frequently on a show called the Atheist Experience (YouTube) every Sunday. You can call in then. If you do let us know, I'd be interested in viewing it.



I am more talking about conservative right wing Christians. Those who are for the death penalty and whatnot. A segment of Christianity I grew up in. On the surface they may seem un-Christ like. Yet psychologically I think they are similar.

Jesus's teaching largely seem to center around having empathy for your fellow man. Sounds good on the surface, but in reality being highly empathetic can result in anger and hostility. I remember they did a study once gauging people on their sensitivity towards those who died in the 9/11 terrorist attacks. They found those who were more empathetic (able to imagine what the victims went through) who died in the attacks were more likely to be in favor of warfare with countries in the middle east. They were more eager for vengeance.

Makes sense. A father who is highly empathetic with his children and wife who are murdered by someone is more likely to act sadistic in retaliation compared to a more psychopathic (low/no empathy) personality who does not feel much empathy for his wife and children. The same ability that makes one emotional to be compassionate to others can make one emotional to avenge others.

You see this anywhere empathy is extremely valued. Like social justice warrior circles. Judgmental, hateful, retaliating sentiments develop, in contrast to their walk on eggshells always accompanying often patronizing attitude towards women and minorities. Also a victim (slave morality) culture. A major reason I went to the more anti-sjw camp is because I recognized the actions and sentiments they displayed as resembling my theistic upbringing.



Yep. The interesting dichotomy of empathy stressed in Christianity. On one extreme having strong empathy for your enemy by turning the other cheek, while on the other thinking your enemy deserves eternal hellfire. On one hand you are using empathy to be extremely sensitive about your enemy's plight, on the other you are being extremely sensitive about your enemy's transgressions. Both extremely polarizing sentiments can exist within one individuals psychology.

Yet you still admit you hear voices. I recommend you see a professional.

You are able to pace out your posts, as evidence of your other posts. Do not use your ADD as a crutch. I was born with language disabilities and probably suffer through ADD myself but I am able to make my posts readable to the best of my abilities. If you value your opinions you should also value them enough to want to make them readable to your audience. Avoiding walls of text is the least you can do.
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I only debate on forums and on the internet. I am not a great speaker. Someday I wish to be able to talk and debate, that would be wonderful. But as far as your view that empathy can cause larger anger and hostility....

look at what you are referring to, you are referring to probably the largest terror attack in american history.. so yeah their would be hurt feelings over that. And in the months following the majority of americans viewed a military strike as a valid option, simply because of the emotions over it were so high. Was that the best option? I don't know of simply funnelling huge amounts of cash into anti terrorism, would have been better that a strike. Again Jesus strictly says if a man strikes you on the cheak to turn the other cheak. But this was an attack on our neighbors, I was not attacked, it was my neighbors in new york that were. So I support self defense mechanisms to prevent this from happening, and that is what happened, for the following several years, military uprooted terrorist cells. Did they do some war mongering in the process, probably. Was all of the strikes defensive, and not offensive. probably not. But eventually we cut back our presence in the middle east. And I don't know enough about it, I for one don't think we should have military bases in all parts of the world. We can't afford to protect military bases from air rockets for example. I think our special forces should be ten times bigger, I think that they should increase espionage campaigns and spy programs ten fold, and remove tanks another other only offensive units. And focus on assasinations, and not conventional warfare. Keep nuclear options open, if IRAN does develop nuclear capabilities, to send in special forces to destroy factories, or what not. Or air strikes from drones. But I don't particularly endorse attacking a country for oil or realestate. or land.

but on the other topic of empathy, I think scripture is very clear, we can defend ourselves, we just can't steal or plunder a country. But if you are are plundering for the sake of defending yourself, well I would not know about that particular aspect.

 

[MehGuy]

I only debate on forums and on the internet. I am not a great speaker. Someday I wish to be able to talk and debate, that would be wonderful. But as far as your view that empathy can cause larger anger and hostility....

Well he might answer an email, he's said in the past that he tries to answer as many emails as possible. Although that was a while ago and not sure if he has the same drive anymore.

look at what you are referring to, you are referring to probably the largest terror attack in american history.. so yeah their would be hurt feelings over that. And in the months following the majority of americans viewed a military strike as a valid option, simply because of the emotions over it were so high.

Yeah, and it would have been better if were as a nation were able to be more cool, calm and collected and lean on logic more instead of emotion. We wanted vengeance, and that is something that is easy to exploit for personal gain. As a society we should perhaps have more of a discussion about how valuable empathy really is past a certain point.

Was that the best option? I don't know of simply funnelling huge amounts of cash into anti terrorism, would have been better that a strike. Again Jesus strictly says if a man strikes you on the cheak to turn the other cheak. But this was an attack on our neighbors, I was not attacked, it was my neighbors in new york that were.

I think the attack was intended for the US as a whole.

Even then, I think the idea of "turning the other cheek" has a deeper message than just for someone who attacks you specifically. It is more about being empathetic towards those you feel do not deserve it. Whether they personally attack you or those you care about or people you view as innocent. You are talking about Jesus who was criticized for hanging around prostitutes and tax collectors.

It is an intriguing and beautiful message, but in reality can be a double edged sword. Honestly if you hit someone and their reaction was to turn the other cheek, would you really feel safe around them? Lol.

From my experience with others theistic or secular, the more someone gushes about love and how important it is the more rotten they tend to be in reality. While on the reverse side, those who have more coarse personalities and seldom talk about love publicly often surprise you with how caring and loving they can be. Seems like the former gets tangled up in the confusing psychological web of emotional empathy and the latter doesn't.

but on the other topic of empathy, I think scripture is very clear, we can defend ourselves, we just can't steal or plunder a country. But if you are are plundering for the sake of defending yourself, well I would not know about that particular aspect.

When you believe some people deserve to be tortured for eternity, a lot of the message gets lost. I am not so much arguing what the Bible says, but how people will respond to it realistically psychologically in mass. As an atheist I more simply view Jesus as someone who admired the idea of empathy and compassion for his fellow man and in return made some interesting statements and inspired others without really knowing where it would all lead.