Fish finger fossils show the beginnings of hands

[Bungle_Bear]

It would be some of the most dedicated trolling I've ever seen, if that were the case.

He comes and goes. Much like Kenny et al. They turn up, they derail a few threads, they go quiet for a while. Then it starts again. Nothing new, no intention of debating, just post a few hackneyed arguments and run away.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

It may, for IDists. I just came up with the notion and haven't thought it through, but it may be that Platonic Realism is fundamental to Intelligent Design. Certainly the radical Calvinists behind the Discovery Institute and ID follow the Presuppositionalist theology of people like Cornelius van Til which, as I understand it, is heavily dependent on Realism. Pehaps if membership in a platonic form can be achieved by design, then it can only be achieved by design and thus any object which exhibits "motorness" or "gearness' or "robot-penguiness" must be a designed object.

That would seem to make everything designed, which renders the argument over what is and isn't designed moot (while making the meaning of 'designed' ambiguous).

 

[Speedwell]

That would seem to make everything designed, which renders the argument over what is and isn't designed moot (while making the meaning of 'designed' ambiguous).

And if everything is designed then the presence of design is undemonstrable and you are back to ordinary theism, which is not where IDists want to be.

 

[xianghua]

... But there aren't!

The flagellum didn't "self-replicate", the cell split in two and grew new flagella (and cell wall, etc.).

The insect example is even worse. No body part of an insect is self-replicated. It grows from the initial cell. This would be like saying your eye is self-replicated. It is not. It grew from cells in the "head" end of your embryo, ultimately from the single cell that came about from the joining of ovum and spermatozoa. Your eye didn't grow from your mother's eye or your father's eye but rather from that first cell using the genetic material from your parents to guide that development. The same is true of the insect parts.

its true that the flagellum isnt realy a self replicating but its still has an external system that replicate it so its not so different. so do you believe that a motor and gears and robots (a penguin for instance) arent evidence for design?

 

[pitabread]

robots (a penguin for instance)

Penguins aren't robots.

 

[xianghua]

Interesting. I did not know that.

However, this suggests that God used sub-standard codons when making life, if their performance can be improved by switching them out for a different version.

i dont think so:

"“What the Liu team found was that optimizing all the codons used by the fungal biological clock knocked the clock out, which was totally unexpected!"

so the designer probably know better than these scientists who think that the code is sub-optimal.

 

[xianghua]

Those are not the same as mechanical motors or gears.

so why they call them mechanical gears?

 

[xianghua]

Penguins aren't robots.

they are biological robots.

 

[Speedwell]

its true that the flagellum isnt realy a self replicating but its still has an external system that replicate it so its not so different. so do you believe that a motor and gears and robots (a penguin for instance) arent evidence for design?

I don't know why you keep asking that question over and over. You know that you are always going to get the same answer. Do you really think that if you keep asking the question you are eventually going to get a different answer?

 

[Speedwell]

they are biological robots.

It doesn't matter if they are robots or not. If there is no evidence of intentional manufacture then you can't tell if they were designed.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

i dont think so:

"“What the Liu team found was that optimizing all the codons used by the fungal biological clock knocked the clock out, which was totally unexpected!"

so the designer probably know better than these scientists who think that the code is sub-optimal.

You seemed to have missed the point of the article, which was that they discovered that, in some organisms, switching some synonymous codons changed the clock speed to a greater advantage depending on the environmental conditions; e.g. slowing it down when the temperature was low. IOW they didn't realise at first that the optimization they were considering wasn't necessarily an optimization for fitness.

 

[pitabread]

they are biological robots.

In the English language, people don't typically use the word "robot" to refer to biological organisms.

I know English isn't your first language, but you really should make the effort to use English words properly, especially since this isn't the first time you've been corrected on this.

 

[xianghua]

You seemed to have missed the point of the article, which was that they discovered that, in some organisms, switching some synonymous codons changed the clock speed to a greater advantage depending on the environmental conditions; e.g. slowing it down when the temperature was low. IOW they didn't realise at first that the optimization they were considering wasn't necessarily an optimization for fitness.

i actually dont think that i read the full article. so or so my main claim was that different codons that code for the saem amino acid can has a functional meaning.

 

[pitabread]

so why they call them mechanical gears?

I should have clarified in my prior post, they are not the same as manufactured mechanical gears.

As to why they call them that, the English language is imprecise and often times the same words and descriptions are used to refer to different things. However, just because the same words are used does not means the objects in question are the same.

In your native language (Hebrew I'm assuming) do words have more than one meaning?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...my main claim was that different codons that code for the saem amino acid can has a functional meaning.

That depends on how you define 'functional meaning' - it might be more accurate to say alternate codons can have different cellular effects. Remember that 'meaning' is an interpretation by, or a projection of, human thought processes.

 

[Hans Blaster]

they are biological robots.

Do you grok robots?

R.U.R. - Wikipedia.

Mechanical men, androids, etc.

 

[Hans Blaster]

its true that the flagellum isnt realy a self replicating but its still has an external system that replicate it so its not so different. so do you believe that a motor and gears and robots (a penguin for instance) arent evidence for design?

That's still not quite the same thing to have an external system that does the replication. The bacteria replicate, the insects replicate, people replicate, etc.

Self replication ISN'T evidence for design, in fact it's rather the opposite. (Not direct evidence of non-design, but a solid clue that design probably isn't what you should be considering when you know something self-replicates.)

 

[Hans Blaster]

That depends on how you define 'functional meaning' - it might be more accurate to say alternate codons can have different cellular effects. Remember that 'meaning' is an interpretation by, or a projection of, human thought processes.

"4" and "four" have the same functional meaning (in English) and that is not really any different from two (or is that 2?) codons that translate to the same amino acid. Prevailing style may prefer the use of one over the other, but the meaning is fixed.

Cats have four legs.
Cats have 4 legs.

Same meaning, different "codons".

("Cats have for legs." not a grammatically valid sentence.)

 

[Subduction Zone]

"4" and "four" have the same functional meaning (in English) and that is not really any different from two (or is that 2?) codons that translate to the same amino acid. Prevailing style may prefer the use of one over the other, but the meaning is fixed.

Cats have four legs.
Cats have 4 legs.

Same meaning, different "codons".

("Cats have for legs." not a grammatically valid sentence.)

Cats have forelegs?

 

[Ophiolite]

Do you grok robots?

R.U.R. - Wikipedia.

Mechanical men, androids, etc.

Indeed. I half thought of asking him what proof he had that penguins held Czech citizenship.