Yes.Does this mean that God recognizes gay marriage ? Would they be married in the eyes of God?
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Yes.Does this mean that God recognizes gay marriage ? Would they be married in the eyes of God?
Our small fellowship has a simple policy. Don't ask. If a believer is not living the lifestyle, then we have no issue with them. Most people are attracted to the opposite sex. It does not make them fornicators automatically. The overemphasis on homosexuality is as wrong as trying to whitewash it. Sin is sin.I would be interested to hear what you would have to say about me.
- someone who has had same sex inclinations/attractions ever since his teens, and still even today.
- someone who has fasted, prayed, had Christian counselling, and done everything, time and time again to alter his same sex attractions, but without any change in orientation.
- someone who has never had a same sex relationship, and has always remained chaste and celibate. Someone who still sees men more attractive than women, but finds it easy not to act on those attractions.
- someone who believes Jesus is the Son of God, who died for his sins.
- someone who has a faith, who reads and studies the Bible, attends church regularly and has a prayer life.
Because they're letters, they're part of a conversation. We don't hear the other side. That means sometimes you have to make educated guesses about the context. I'm pretty sure Rom 1:18-32 is quoting the other party. But without seeing the other side of the conversation someone can disagree.So does that mean that Paul's letters only apply to the churches they were written to and not to all believers? Aren't these letters the inspired word of God speaking to us today?
If you follow God's word, you don't get a millstone, you get "well done faithful servant".The main relevant passages are Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13; Genesis 19; Romans 1:26-27; I Corinthians 6:9; and I Timothy 1:10. To address them briefly:
Leviticus is part of the body of Jewish law that includes also various dietary laws, calendar observances, rules for uncleanness, and so on. Possibly Orthodox Jews are still bound by this covenant, but it is not our covenant if we are Gentile Christians.
Genesis 19 is about gang rape, probably intended to show dominance over and humiliation of the visiting strangers. How anyone sees this as a portrayal of loving homosexual intimacy is beyond me.
Romans 1 is probably the strongest basis for an anti-gay argument. If one reads the whole of Romans 1-3 together, though, the flow of it is that Paul describes some things about Gentiles that would make a Jewish reader say "Yes, that's right, those Gentiles are awful sinners" -- and then Paul turns around and says that the Jewish readers are sinners like the Gentiles they just condemned; all have sinned, Jew and Gentile alike. It's not clear whether Paul is setting out a law against homosexuality in Romans 1, or whether he's just calling up a particular picture that will get a reaction from his Jewish readers.
The trouble with the lists of vices in I Corinthians 6:9 and I Timothy 1:10 is that we see single words whose meaning isn't clear. A single ambiguous word is a lot to base a doctrine on.
Also to be taken into account is Paul's repeated insistence that we are not bound by the law -- so it's odd to see him creating a new law for Christians to follow.
And, a verse that has haunted me ever since I became aware that several of the young people in our church are gay: "If any of you put a stumbling block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if a great millstone were fastened around your neck and you were drowned in the depth of the sea." (Matthew 18:6) If I look at these young Christians and say "Be celibate, or get out of my church", I know there's a millstone waiting for me.
Paul wrote what he wrote under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. To now apply our 'modern wisdom' to say Paul didn't know what we know and therefore wasn't saying what he said, is to discount and even blaspheme the Holy Spirit who gave Paul God's wisdom.The best Bible study on the issue of homosexuality that I have ever found is:
Homosexuality and the Bible by the late Walter Wink,
Former Professor of Biblical Interpretation, Auburn Theological Seminary, New York City.
http://www.stpetersloganville.org/images/Homosexuality_and_the_Bible.pdf
But God's word doesn't say what you think it does.If you follow God's word, you don't get a millstone, you get "well done faithful servant".
Paul received his words from the Holy Spirit. They are what they say.But God's word doesn't say what you think it does.
First, I think Rom 1:18-32 is something Paul disagrees with. But let's assume this is wrong.
Rom 1:26-27
For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
Who is "them"? It is pagans, who worshipped idols. Nowhere does Paul say that this applies to all homosexuals or Christian homosexuals. The context is very clear: this is about pagans, who because of idolatry end up with degraded morals. Not just this, but a whole list of other things.
There is every reason to think that for many pagans, this description is accurate.
You are trying to use a quotation taken out of its context.
Indeed. They are what they say. If by rationalizing you mean looking at what Paul actually says, I plead guilty.Paul received his words from the Holy Spirit. They are what they say.
Remember, every time you rationalize Paul's thinking, you're rationalizing the Holy Spirit's thinking.
So does that mean that Paul's letters only apply to the churches they were written to and not to all believers? Aren't these letters the inspired word of God speaking to us today?
Yes.
... same-sex relations in his time weren't anything that could form the basis for a marriage. At least not as far as Paul's congregations would have been aware. (There's some reason to think that there actually were gay couples with reasonably mutual relationships. But that's not how people typically described same-sex relations, and same-sex marriage existed only as kind of a sick joke. Even in the potentially positive relationships, I'd bet many of them were cheating on their wives.)
So does that mean that Paul's letters only apply to the churches they were written to and not to all believers? Aren't these letters the inspired word of God speaking to us today?
I've heard that kind of statement before and it's really not okay. To compare passages of the Bible to rubble shows a terrible lack of understanding of what the Bible is. If entire sections of the Bible are just unnecessary filler, can you really believe it's from God? And if it's not from God, then why bother at all? If most of the Bible is rubble, then the "nuggets" are worthless.I approach the Bible like a prospector would approach his claim. I am prepared to spend a lot of time and effort searching for the shining nuggets of wisdom and insight but I am also prepared to have to shift a lot of rubble in order to find them.
I don't agree with JackRT's description of the Bible. But there is also no reason in the Bible to have a problem with gay relationships that follow normal Christian ideals. There is, of course, no one homosexual lifestyle, any more than there's one heterosexual lifestyle. There is everything from promiscuity to people trying to follow Christian ideals for marriage.I've heard that kind of statement before and it's really not okay. To compare passages of the Bible to rubble shows a terrible lack of understanding of what the Bible is. If entire sections of the Bible are just unnecessary filler, can you really believe it's from God? And if it's not from God, then why bother at all? If most of the Bible is rubble, then the "nuggets" are worthless.
There is no Biblical basis for homosexuality. There is reason to show people from that lifestyle concern and care, but we have to draw a line at how far we go with acceptance. We can't just accept sin if God has rejected it. Who do we think we are anyway, to put our desires and preferences above God's? Do we think we can even begin to compare to His holiness and wisdom?
Sorry, the rubble analogy set me off.
I've heard that kind of statement before and it's really not okay. To compare passages of the Bible to rubble shows a terrible lack of understanding of what the Bible is. If entire sections of the Bible are just unnecessary filler, can you really believe it's from God? And if it's not from God, then why bother at all? If most of the Bible is rubble, then the "nuggets" are worthless.
There is no Biblical basis for homosexuality. There is reason to show people from that lifestyle concern and care, but we have to draw a line at how far we go with acceptance. We can't just accept sin if God has rejected it. Who do we think we are anyway, to put our desires and preferences above God's? Do we think we can even begin to compare to His holiness and wisdom?
Sorry, the rubble analogy set me off.