LDS How many negative charges has been made about JS character in LDS History? Just, curious.

[He is the way]

Yes I do hope to endure to the end;--He is the Way

Then we take this verse you added

(New Testament | Matthew 24:13)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved​

so you only hope you are saved.
Got it

We can play this resource game all day. Here is one with no mention of these others JS was supposed to be trying to protect.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/mormon-leader-killed-by-mob

You can play the resource game all day long and you will still be wrong. However the article you posted is right that Joseph and Hyrum were the only ones killed. The article I posted is also correct.

 

[Jamesone5]

God's Holy Spirit tells me I am right.

 

[Ironhold]

God's Holy Spirit tells me I am right.

Once upon a time, I found myself on the same message forum as an individual who had this same attitude.

By his own admission, he'd only been a member of his current denomination for about six months, hadn't read the Bible cover-to-cover, and in fact didn't think anyone even needed to read the Bible all the way.

Rather, the way he saw it, he was a member of the "right" form of Christianity and so he was "right" by default.

Problem was, whenever he tried to challenge me, he'd do so with canned arguments he got from somewhere else. It didn't take me too long to knock those down, often because those arguments had been around so long someone else had already dispensed with them some time ago.

He couldn't square this with his presumption that he was "right" by default.

Before too long he was literally just copying and pasting entire pages of anti-Mormon material and going on long-winded rants whenever I'd knock his material down again.

Eventually, the guy had a full psychotic break that led to his going on massive rants and generally becoming verbally abusive towards everyone. In short, if we didn't drop everything and believe as he did then we were all damned, regardless of whether or not he could back himself up. He was banned from the forums soon after, and there's reason to suspect that he was the one behind at least one of the denial-of-service attacks the site suffered in the wake of his banning.

He may have been a particularly dramatic example, but... talk to any one of us who's been doing apologetics work for long enough and they'll have at least one story about someone who deteriorated just like this: they were convinced that they were "right" by virtue of their religious affiliation alone, hadn't bothered to actually study the matters at hand, relied heavily on the work of other people without actually fact-checking it, experienced cognitive dissonance upon discovering that what they were told wasn't correct, and suffered varying forms of mental trauma because of it.

Once upon a time the term "My pastor knows better!" actually became something of a punchline, as whenever confronted by the realization that whatever their minister told them might be incorrect people would rush to defend their minister rather than stop to assess what they'd been given.

So an attitude of "God's on my side no matter what I do" isn't exactly going to guarantee one anything beyond heartbreak.

 

[Jamesone5]

Once upon a time, I found myself on the same message forum as an individual who had this same attitude.

By his own admission, he'd only been a member of his current denomination for about six months, hadn't read the Bible cover-to-cover, and in fact didn't think anyone even needed to read the Bible all the way.

Rather, the way he saw it, he was a member of the "right" form of Christianity and so he was "right" by default.

Problem was, whenever he tried to challenge me, he'd do so with canned arguments he got from somewhere else. It didn't take me too long to knock those down, often because those arguments had been around so long someone else had already dispensed with them some time ago.

He couldn't square this with his presumption that he was "right" by default.

Before too long he was literally just copying and pasting entire pages of anti-Mormon material and going on long-winded rants whenever I'd knock his material down again.

Eventually, the guy had a full psychotic break that led to his going on massive rants and generally becoming verbally abusive towards everyone. In short, if we didn't drop everything and believe as he did then we were all damned, regardless of whether or not he could back himself up. He was banned from the forums soon after, and there's reason to suspect that he was the one behind at least one of the denial-of-service attacks the site suffered in the wake of his banning.

He may have been a particularly dramatic example, but... talk to any one of us who's been doing apologetics work for long enough and they'll have at least one story about someone who deteriorated just like this: they were convinced that they were "right" by virtue of their religious affiliation alone, hadn't bothered to actually study the matters at hand, relied heavily on the work of other people without actually fact-checking it, experienced cognitive dissonance upon discovering that what they were told wasn't correct, and suffered varying forms of mental trauma because of it.

Once upon a time the term "My pastor knows better!" actually became something of a punchline, as whenever confronted by the realization that whatever their minister told them might be incorrect people would rush to defend their minister rather than stop to assess what they'd been given.

So an attitude of "God's on my side no matter what I do" isn't exactly going to guarantee one anything beyond heartbreak.

And this applies to me, exactly how?

I am not ashamed to admit that I rely on the Power of the Holy Spirit.

I rely on this Promise:

John 16:13
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

Difference is [since you inserted your protest]--- Mormons rely on JS to guide them to all truth.

 

[Ironhold]

Difference is [since you inserted your protest]--- Mormons rely on JS to guide them to all truth.

Then why does the church leadership so constantly admonish people to study things out for themselves?

 

[Jamesone5]

Then why does the church leadership so constantly admonish people to study things out for themselves?

Come now, you have a founding prophet and to be a good Mormon you have to agree with his teachings, otherwise you would not be a Mormon. You have to claim to "know" the BoM is true and the rest of your false Scripture and be led by this false shepherd that only claims he is a Prophet..

In case you do not know it --I was a Mormon for 40 years until God and His Holy Spirit led me out.

 

[mmksparbud]

1 Corinthians 13:7
bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

Or from you Articles of Faith

We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things.

The question in which version are you Mormons supposed to folow?

sounds like with the word "we", it is a Mormons own efforts they are relying on. And of course the addition-- HOPE to be able to endure all things.

Christians endure all things---Mormons just hope they can endure.

 

[mmksparbud]

Once upon a time, I found myself on the same message forum as an individual who had this same attitude.

By his own admission, he'd only been a member of his current denomination for about six months, hadn't read the Bible cover-to-cover, and in fact didn't think anyone even needed to read the Bible all the way.

Rather, the way he saw it, he was a member of the "right" form of Christianity and so he was "right" by default.

Problem was, whenever he tried to challenge me, he'd do so with canned arguments he got from somewhere else. It didn't take me too long to knock those down, often because those arguments had been around so long someone else had already dispensed with them some time ago.

He couldn't square this with his presumption that he was "right" by default.

Before too long he was literally just copying and pasting entire pages of anti-Mormon material and going on long-winded rants whenever I'd knock his material down again.

Eventually, the guy had a full psychotic break that led to his going on massive rants and generally becoming verbally abusive towards everyone. In short, if we didn't drop everything and believe as he did then we were all damned, regardless of whether or not he could back himself up. He was banned from the forums soon after, and there's reason to suspect that he was the one behind at least one of the denial-of-service attacks the site suffered in the wake of his banning.

He may have been a particularly dramatic example, but... talk to any one of us who's been doing apologetics work for long enough and they'll have at least one story about someone who deteriorated just like this: they were convinced that they were "right" by virtue of their religious affiliation alone, hadn't bothered to actually study the matters at hand, relied heavily on the work of other people without actually fact-checking it, experienced cognitive dissonance upon discovering that what they were told wasn't correct, and suffered varying forms of mental trauma because of it.

Once upon a time the term "My pastor knows better!" actually became something of a punchline, as whenever confronted by the realization that whatever their minister told them might be incorrect people would rush to defend their minister rather than stop to assess what they'd been given.

So an attitude of "God's on my side no matter what I do" isn't exactly going to guarantee one anything beyond heartbreak.

You will not get that reaction from those who do know their God and their Bible!

 

[BigDaddy4]

Once upon a time,

Oh great, story time! Yes, every now and then you keep repeating this or some similar story about you "conquering" some poor Christians who don't know their Bible.

Fortunately, around here, there are posters who know the Bible inside and outside, front to back, and in original languages. I have yet to see you win a debate with any of them. You usually drop out. So.... not impressed with your "conquests", nor how long you've been at apologetics. LDS apologetics is based on a lot of "could be", "perhaps", "possibly", and other speculative non-sense, and not much fact.

 

[He is the way]

God's Holy Spirit tells me I am right.

Then you have the wrong spirit because it is well known that Joseph and Hyrum were not the only ones in the Carthage jail when they were murdered. John Taylor was badly wounded during the attack:

In June 1844, Smith came to the jail to face charges relating to his ordering the destruction of facilities producing the Nauvoo Expositor, a newspaper whose only edition had been critical of the Smiths' religious teachings. He was joined by his brother, Hyrum, and fellow Latter Day Saints John Taylor and Willard Richards. On June 27, a mob stormed the upper room of the prison and killed the Smiths. Taylor was badly wounded and Richards was scathed, but not seriously injured.[4][5]

From: Carthage Jail - Wikipedia

 

[Jamesone5]

Then you have the wrong spirit because it is well known that Joseph and Hyrum were not the only ones in the Carthage jail when they were murdered. John Taylor was badly wounded during the attack:

In June 1844, Smith came to the jail to face charges relating to his ordering the destruction of facilities producing the Nauvoo Expositor, a newspaper whose only edition had been critical of the Smiths' religious teachings. He was joined by his brother, Hyrum, and fellow Latter Day Saints John Taylor and Willard Richards. On June 27, a mob stormed the upper room of the prison and killed the Smiths. Taylor was badly wounded and Richards was scathed, but not seriously injured.[4][5]

From: Carthage Jail - Wikipedia

Then you have the wrong spirit---He is the Way

That is the first time a Mormon calls THE Holy Spirit the wrong one. Careful ----you are in danger here:

Mark 3:29
29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”—

 

[He is the way]

Then you have the wrong spirit---He is the Way

That is the first time a Mormon calls THE Holy Spirit the wrong one. Careful ----you are in danger here:

Mark 3:29
29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”—

I guess you are the only one here who believes that Joseph and Hyrum were alone in the jail cell at Carthage when the Mob attacked. No one will agree with you.

 

[Jamesone5]

I guess you are the only one here who believes that Joseph and Hyrum were alone in the jail cell at Carthage when the Mob attacked. No one will agree with you.

I see, so you are speaking for all the others---even non-Mormons?

And yet ignore my warnings.

Mormon pride knows no ends, it seems.

 

[He is the way]

I see, so you are speaking for all the others---even non-Mormons?

And yet ignore my warnings.

Mormon pride knows no ends, it seems.

You are the only one disagreeing with me, except for your guiding spirit. The sources I posted agree with me. Everything I have ever read states that Joseph and Hyrum were NOT the only ones in the jail cell when the mob attacked.

 

[Jamesone5]

You are the only one disagreeing with me, except for your guiding spirit. The sources I posted agree with me. Everything I have ever read states that Joseph and Hyrum were NOT the only ones in the jail cell when the mob attacked.

And I referred to it as God's Holy Spirit--not to be confused with whatever spirit you have. Are you once again trying to control the dialog.?


And I note that it only you responding here---you are speaking for everyone?

 

[He is the way]

And I referred to it as God's Holy Spirit--not to be confused with whatever spirit you have. Are you once again trying to control the dialog.?


And I note that it only you responding here---you are speaking for everyone?

I know for a fact that John Taylor and Willard Richards were in the room with Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith when the mob attacked them and killed both Joseph and Hyrum.

 

[Jamesone5]

I know for a fact that John Taylor and Willard Richards were in the room with Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith when the mob attacked them and killed both Joseph and Hyrum.

YOU only believe you know. Hardly what you say is a fact.

 

[He is the way]

YOU only believe you know. Hardly what you say is a fact.

It is absolute fact.

 

[Ironhold]

YOU only believe you know. Hardly what you say is a fact.

How many historical accounts and history books do you want us to quote before you'll accept what is already accepted history?

It wasn't just the Smith brothers in the prison that day.

edit -

If nothing else, let's start with Wikipedia's recounting as a baseline: Death of Joseph Smith - Wikipedia

 

[Jamesone5]

How many historical accounts and history books do you want us to quote before you'll accept what is already accepted history?

It wasn't just the Smith brothers in the prison that day.

edit -

If nothing else, let's start with Wikipedia's recounting as a baseline: Death of Joseph Smith - Wikipedia

Here is where you only think you know. People have been charging history for ages. And Mormons have certainly been guilty of changing their own history and making up stories, defending their founding prophet. Many of these debates are about that or can be attributed to that factor.

If you were on a witness stand and had to testify under penalty of oath----if you were honest, you would have to say "well I only believe that is the way it happened but then, I was really not there back then"

Why should I accept the truth you utter any differently?

And you did not quote a history book--a Wikipedia article which is made up of mostly opinions---obviously just like yours.