The Seed of Abraham

[claninja]

It's true that the promises given to Abraham have been fulfilled in Christ. The argument by the reformed is that all the believers in Christ will inherit the land.

Where does the Bible make a distinction in the promises that gentiles receive and the promises that Jews receive in the New covenant?

The strangers are no doubt Gentiles. But they are not all the believers of Christ. The scripture doesn't say who they are. But we know they are small in number because of the future boundaries given in Ezekiel.

where does it say the gentiles are small in number that inherit the land with the 12 tribes?

I have read many opinions of who these strangers are. Some have said Palestinians, some say representatives from the nations of the world, some say they are who God has chosen by His own hand, who knows. It is all opinion and not at all fact.

Please provide 1 serious theologian that believes this.

 

[Charlie24]

Where does the Bible make a distinction in the promises that gentiles receive and the promises that Jews receive in the New covenant?



where does it say the gentiles are small in number that inherit the land with the 12 tribes?



Please provide 1 serious theologian that believes this.

You want to argue for the sake of argument.

I have explained all of this and you will not accept it.

Read back and see these question have been answered.

 

[claninja]

You want to argue for the sake of argument.

I have explained all of this and you will not accept it.

Read back and see these question have been answered.

i can only seem to find your opinions and not actual scripture in regards to my questions, in previous posts.

 

[parousia70]

pardon? I wrote this:
"I missed that scripture indeed. Thank you for claring the issue up by naming that verse. This verse says that God called Israel "olive" in the Old Covenant. So I conclude, he might have taken the title "olive" from Israel now. Israel lost a title apparently. [...]"
Please don't twist my words.

How did I twist them?... You admit you have only applied conjecture to come to your conclusion of this "lost title"... as you have no scripture showing God stripping them of the title do you?

Bible says that Israel was (present tense) called the olive. This, in my interpretation, isn't proof for your claim that Israel still is. "nice beautiful, fruitful olive tree" could have been a title.
Sometimes lovers call each other like that. But there might have been a time when this stopped.

But if you can't show from scripture where, when and how this title of Olive Tree, Given to Israel by God, ever "ceased" for Israel, then by what Biblical evidence do you come to the conclusion it has been?

In my opinion it's like this: Before, Israel used to be Israel.
Now you say: the church is Israel.
If you can't show that the church was Israel or that Israel used to be the church... then you're the one having committed replacement theology.

Then Show us when these people CEASED being Israel:
Acts 2:41
Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

or these?:

Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Again I submit it is you who have committed replacement theology for you have replaced the FAITHFUL remnant with the Wicked Sons as the true heirs.

Such would be untenable to the apostles, and is polar opposite to apostolic instruction.

 

[thomas_t]

How did I twist them?...

you wrote I admitted that Israel is called the olive

for you are on record as agreeing it does [testify that Israel is called the Olive Tree]

I never said so.

Then Show us when these people CEASED being Israel:

I never claimed that the people in Acts 2 did not belong to Israel. So I did not replace the faithful Israelites. Please don't put words in my mouth.
I'm not guilty of replacement theology.

But if you can't show from scripture where, when and how this title of Olive Tree, Given to Israel by God, ever "ceased" for Israel, then by what Biblical evidence do you come to the conclusion it has been?

Look Parousia, the title was not "olive tree". The title was "nice, beautiful, fruitful olive tree".
Do you want me to show that Israel lost beauty in the meantime?

 

[thomas_t]

your own article on Abraham's Seed and we'll see how it holds up.

I won't write anything in this sense. Even if I had an elaboration on this prepared on my desktop.
There are people in this thread claiming that Jews aren't the Jews anymore.
And that Israel isn't Israel anymore.
In these circumstances.... I would never start a thread on these issues.

 

[Dave L]

I won't write anything in this sense. Even if I had an elaboration on this prepared on my desktop.
There are people in this thread claiming that Jews aren't the Jews anymore.
And that Israel isn't Israel anymore.
In these circumstances.... I would never start a thread on these issues.

They are not Biblical Israel. Believers in Christ are. At best the unbelievers are secular Israel not related to Biblical Israel other than by their rejection. Circumcision made one a physical Jew or Physical member of Biblical Israel until Christ abolished it on the cross.

 

[parousia70]

you wrote I admitted that Israel is called the oliveI never said so.

You said:"I missed that scripture indeed. Thank you for claring the issue up by naming that verse. This verse says that God called Israel "olive" in the Old Covenant. "

Here is the verse again for the edification of our readers:
16 Jehovah called thy name, A green olive-tree, fair with goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
Jeremiah 11:16

I never claimed that the people in Acts 2 did not belong to Israel.

So you agree, at the beginning anyway, the CHURCH was not only synonymous with "Faithful, Obedient Israel", but was indeed ONLY "Faithful, Obedient Israel"?
That's good to hear.

So I did not replace the faithful Israelites. Please don't put words in my mouth.
I'm not guilty of replacement theology.

When then did the Church STOP being Faithful obedient Israel?

You call Unfaithful Christ Rejectors Heirs to the promises made to "Israel" today.. you have indeed REPLACED the Faithful Obedient Israelites with the Wicked disobedient sons as the True Heirs... Such is OPPOSITE of all Prophetic and Apostolic teaching.

Look Parousia, the title was not "olive tree". The title was "nice, beautiful, fruitful olive tree".

16 Jehovah called thy name, A green olive-tree,

 

[parousia70]

There are people in this thread claiming that Jews aren't the Jews anymore.
And that Israel isn't Israel anymore.

The onus is on the claimant to prove the positive.
Tells us, What makes them Jews?
DNA? Religion? Politics? Something else?
What Makes Modern Geopolitical Israel, the multi-ethnic secular democracy, the same entity as Biblical, Hebrew, Theocratic Israel?
Geography? Politics? religion? Something else?

Since No Jew Today has any verifiable genetic relationship to any pre-desolation Hebrew person, nor practices the same religion as the Biblical Hebrews, I have to wonder what criteria you are using to determine they are Biblical Jews?

Are you in possession of even a shred of actual evidence? Evidence that has eluded the rest of mankind for thousands of years, suddenly you have?
If so, by all means show it.

Here's the reality:
No "Jew" alive today:
A)can trace their lineage to a SINGLE pre desolation Hebrew person.
NOT EVEN ONE. (if there were, you could name him)

B) Practices even one half of the Biblical requirements the Jews of the Bible must practice in order to be considered Jews in God's eyes.
NOT EVEN ONE. (if there were, you could name him)

So, what does scripture call people who:
A) can not trace their lineage to Jacob/Aaron
and
B)Do not Practice/Follow the Law of Moses

??

It certainly does not call them "Jews", so why would you and why should I?

 

[thomas_t]

They are not Biblical Israel. Believers in Christ are. At best the unbelievers are secular Israel not related to Biblical Israel other than by their rejection. Circumcision made one a physical Jew or Physical member of Biblical Israel until Christ abolished it on the cross.

No, Christ didn't abolish physical circumcision, Acts 10:45. The Jews are still there, and they still practice it. Gentile Christians don't have to undergo this procedure, though.
You have nothing to show that the Jews aren't Biblical Israel. It's presumtion.
Thomas

 

[thomas_t]

You said:"I missed that scripture indeed. Thank you for claring the issue up by naming that verse. This verse says that God called Israel "olive" in the Old Covenant. "

Here is the verse again for the edification of our readers:
16 Jehovah called thy name, A green olive-tree, fair with goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
Jeremiah 11:16

So you agree, at the beginning anyway, the CHURCH was not only synonymous with "Faithful, Obedient Israel", but was indeed ONLY "Faithful, Obedient Israel"?
That's good to hear.



When then did the Church STOP being Faithful obedient Israel?

You call Unfaithful Christ Rejectors Heirs to the promises made to "Israel" today.. you have indeed REPLACED the Faithful Obedient Israelites with the Wicked disobedient sons as the True Heirs... Such is OPPOSITE of all Prophetic and Apostolic teaching.


16 Jehovah called thy name, A green olive-tree,

You said that I purportedly admitted that Israel is still called Israel. That's wrong. I said Israel was (past tense) called that way. So finally, stop putting words in my mouth.

I never said that Jews who believe in Christ do not belong to Israel. As I said. So I am not guilty of any replacement.
At the beginning, the church was comprised by Jewish believers only. The Jews who came to faith in Christ stayed Jewish, afterwards. See Acts 10:45. Later, Gentile Christians joined the church. They did not join Israel.
With regard to Jeremiah 11:16: the comma was added by your translation. In the Greek original text, there is no comma between "beautiful and fruitful green olive tree". The whole thing was the title that God conveyed to Israel at that time.

Tells us, What makes them Jews?

Being inwardly Jewish makes one a Jew.
So there's no need to trace back anyone's physical Jewish ancestry. And no need to count the amount of laws they keep.

 

[Dave L]

No, Christ didn't abolish physical circumcision, Acts 10:45. The Jews are still there, and they still practice it. Gentile Christians don't have to undergo this procedure, though.
You have nothing to show that the Jews aren't Biblical Israel. It's presumtion.
Thomas

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” Galatians 5:1–4 (KJV 1900)

 

[thomas_t]

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” Galatians 5:1–4 (KJV 1900)

ok, I see it as a passage directed to the Galatians in particular "I paul say unto you, that if ye". The Galatians had trouble being legalistic (my interpretation of the letter, if I remember well).
So in that case, they were told to leave that practice. If they were Christians, they were saved anyway and they don't need physical circumcision, any more.

 

[Dave L]

ok, I see it as a passage directed to the Galatians in particular "I paul say unto you, that if ye". The Galatians had trouble being legalistic (my interpretation of the letter, if I remember well).
So in that case, they were told to leave that practice. If they were Christians, they were saved anyway and they don't need physical circumcision, any more.

But unbelieving Jews are lost, Circumcision is meaningless. Only through faith in Christ will any be reattached to Israel (AKA the Church).

 

[thomas_t]

[...] Israel (AKA the Church).

the red part is merely presumption. You don't have anything to back this up.
Your Galatians verse didn't do it.
Israel isn't also known as the church.

 

[Dave L]

the red part is merely presumption. You don't have anything to back this up.
Your Galatians verse didn't do it.
Israel isn't also known as the church.

It = congregation of the Lord 300 + times in the OT.

“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” Acts 7:38 (KJV 1900)

 

[Adamina]

Paul makes it clear he is speaking of the Jews. He makes a clear distinction between the Israel and the Gentiles. He also calls them Jacob to leave no doubt!
God knows who is the Jew and who is not!

According to Reve 3, He also knows who the false Jews were in pre 70ad Judea and Jerusalem and are to this day..........

Rev 3:9
“Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but are false—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

Reve 2:9 I have known thy works, and tribulation, and poverty -- yet thou art rich -- and the evil-speaking of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are a synagogue of the Satan.

5574. to utter an untruth or attempt to deceive by falsehood:--falsely, lie.

Revelation 3:9 Commentaries:

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 9. - Behold I give of the synagogue of Satan.
The true reading seems to be neither δίδωμι nor δέδωκα, but διδῶ, from the form διδόω, which is fairly common in classical Greek. The construction, ἐκ τῆς- συναγωγῆς, the partitive genitive used as subject or object of a verb, is frequent in St. John's writings (John 1:24; John 7:40; John 16:17:2 John 4; comp. John 6:39; John 21:10). The Church of Smyrna was encouraged with a promise that their Jewish opponents should not be victorious over them.

The Philadelphian Christians are told that they shall be victorious over their Jewish opponents.
As before (Revelation 2:9), those who "say they are Jews, and they are not," are Jews who refuse to believe in the Messiah and reject the Gospel. The only true Jews are those who accept the Christ. They are not, but do lie. Antithetic parallelism, as in ver. 8 and Revelation 2:13.

I will make them to come and worship at thy feet. This would be fulfilled when the destruction of Jerusalem drove large numbers of Jews into Asia Minor. Every city which had previously had a Jewish colony would then receive a great influx of refugees.
=============================

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

 

[parousia70]

At the beginning, the church was comprised by Jewish believers only. The Jews who came to faith in Christ stayed Jewish, afterwards. See Acts 10:45. Later, Gentile Christians joined the church. They did not join Israel.

Read THIS: "Ye were...aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise...[but Christ] hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens."(Eph 2:12,19)

Paul is abundantly clear here. Gentile converts to Christianity go from being "foreigners of the commonwealth of Israel" to "fellow citizens."

How is Paul wrong about that?

What the prophets, Jesus and all the apostles teach was that the covenantal judgment of AD70 would serve to excommunicate all unbelieving Jews from the commonwealth of Israel forever.

The Nazarene sect were the ONLY entity through which National Covenanted Israel continued past AD70.

there's no need to trace back anyone's physical Jewish ancestry.

Such is BLATANTLY unscriptural, if your view is correct.

To follow what Moses commanded, Jews *must* be able to be reckoned by genealogy. They can no longer identify any sons of Abraham by lineage (and that's another reason why Jesus MUST be the messiah). This is precisely because the NEW covenant made with Israel was for all people groups and was no longer attached to the priestly class of Aaron or animal sacrifices. And when the NEW covenant was made, the OLD one went extinct.

Do they know where the priests are today who will identify the rest? Do you know where the Urim and Thummim are (Ez. 2:63)? Of course not.

The Christ has come, and the NEW covenant made with Israel obliterated tribal lineages and racial distinctions, fulfilling Genesis 12:3. The true faith was only TEMPORARILY sequestered to one family's kin [i.e., Abraham's blood descendants]. But the Christ came and made it universal for all the families of the earth. And the Christ's NEW covenant with Israel intentionally detached from lineage, Temple, priestly-class of Aaron, and any particular earthly city.

Romans 2:25-29 shows us how God sees true Jewishness. Namely, a genetic jew, if disobedient to God's will, is viewed by God as an uncircumcised pagan (v.25). Meanwhile the genetic gentile, if obedient to God's will, is viewed by God as a circumcised Jew (v.26), despite his lack of family genetics and the outward marks. Paul teaches that true Jewishness, as God counts it, is based on a man's inward disposition of faith and obedience to God (v.28-29). From this passage we see that You and I are true Jews in God's eyes, whereas outward-only jews like the High Priest Caiaphas surrender their status as Jews in God's eyes. Such jewish persons are uncircumcised pagans, in God's eyes.

And no need to count the amount of laws they keep.

Again, Such is BLATANTLY unscriptural, if we are to accept your view as correct.
Scripture teaches that "Jews" that didn't follow the Torah were excommunicated from among the people of God and were considered heathen (Ex 12:14-15,19; Ex 31:14). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham.

That bears repeating:

There is no such thing as "Jews" that didn't follow the Torah. Such "Jews" were excommunicated from among the people of God and were considered heathen (Ex 12:14-15,19; Ex 31:14). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham.

Today's Jews, don't follow the mandatory feasts of Moses. Why don't they do what Moses commanded? Because today's "jews" don't follow the Old Covenant whatsoever, as I have been saying. They don't have anything in common with the ancient Hebrews, nor do they even have their bloodlines, so far as anyone knows. The tribal system went extinct in the first century, and it did so precisely because the Jewish Messiah came and made the faith of Abraham universal to all people groups. In contrast with the Covenant of Moses, The Messiah's Covenant detached from race, from animal sacrifices, from the Temple, from the priestly class of Aaron, and from any earthly city--and it delivered this NEW judaism decades before the OLD judaism went extinct at AD 70. This proves that Christianity was of divine origin. They prophetically foresaw that the Old system was about to vanish (Heb 8:13) and history proves they were true prophets.

All the tribes and bloodlines were lost 20 centuries ago. Call that what you want, but that's the reality. Now, Christianity has an explanation for why this happened. The loss of the tribes, the priesthood of Aaron, the animal sacrifice, the Temple occurred because *all* people-groups were destined by God to be partakers in Abraham's faith. This prophecy of Gen 12:3 was fulfilled in the first century. (Be sure to note that Galatians 3:7-14 is the biblical interpretation of Genesis 12:3).

 

[thomas_t]

It = congregation of the Lord 300 + times in the OT.

“This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” Acts 7:38 (KJV 1900)

No, that was not a Christian church. You can't circumvent baptism. Only baptism makes someone enter the Christian church: see 1 Corinthians 12:13

 

[thomas_t]

Read THIS: "Ye were...aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise...[but Christ] hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us...Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens."(Eph 2:12,19)

Paul is abundantly clear here. Gentile converts to Christianity go from being "foreigners of the commonwealth of Israel" to "fellow citizens."

How is Paul wrong about that?


What the prophets, Jesus and all the apostles teach, in contrast, was that the covenantal judgment of AD70 would serve to excommunicate all unbelieving Jews from the commonwealth of Israel forever.

The Nazarene sect were the ONLY entity through which National Covenanted Israel continued past AD70.



Such is BLATANTLY unscriptural.

To follow what Moses commanded, Jews *must* be able to be reckoned by genealogy. They can no longer identify any sons of Abraham by lineage (and that's another reason why Jesus MUST be the messiah). This is precisely because the NEW covenant made with Israel was for all people groups and was no longer attached to the priestly class of Aaron or animal sacrifices. And when the NEW covenant was made, the OLD one went extinct.

Do they know where the priests are today who will identify the rest? Do you know where the Urim and Thummim are (Ez. 2:63)? Of course not.

The Christ has come, and the NEW covenant made with Israel obliterated tribal lineages and racial distinctions, fulfilling Genesis 12:3. The true faith was only TEMPORARILY sequestered to one family's kin [i.e., Abraham's blood descendants]. But the Christ came and made it universal for all the families of the earth. And the Christ's NEW covenant with Israel intentionally detached from lineage, Temple, priestly-class of Aaron, and any particular earthly city.

Romans 2:25-29 shows us how God sees true Jewishness. Namely, a genetic jew, if disobedient to God's will, is viewed by God as an uncircumcised pagan (v.25). Meanwhile the genetic gentile, if obedient to God's will, is viewed by God as a circumcised Jew (v.26), despite his lack of family genetics and the outward marks. Paul teaches that true Jewishness, as God counts it, is based on a man's inward disposition of faith and obedience to God (v.28-29). From this passage we see that You and I are true Jews in God's eyes, whereas outward-only jews like the High Priest Caiaphas surrender their status as Jews in God's eyes. Such jewish persons are uncircumcised pagans, in God's eyes.



Again, Such is BLATANTLY unscriptural.
Scripture teaches that "Jews" that didn't follow the Torah were excommunicated from among the people of God and were considered heathen (Ex 12:14-15,19; Ex 31:14). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham.

That bears repeating:

There is no such thing as "Jews" that didn't follow the Torah. Such "Jews" were excommunicated from among the people of God and were considered heathen (Ex 12:14-15,19; Ex 31:14). Such a person was at that point considered a heathen and not a child of Abraham.

Today's Jews, don't follow the mandatory feasts of Moses. Why don't they do what Moses commanded? Because today's "jews" don't follow the Old Covenant whatsoever, as I have been saying. They don't have anything in common with the ancient Hebrews, nor do they even have their bloodlines, so far as anyone knows. The tribal system went extinct in the first century, and it did so precisely because the Jewish Messiah came and made the faith of Abraham universal to all people groups. In contrast with the Covenant of Moses, The Messiah's Covenant detached from race, from animal sacrifices, from the Temple, from the priestly class of Aaron, and from any earthly city--and it delivered this NEW judaism decades before the OLD judaism went extinct at AD 70. This proves that Christianity was of divine origin. They prophetically foresaw that the Old system was about to vanish (Heb 8:13) and history proves they were true prophets.

All the tribes and bloodlines were lost 20 centuries ago. Call that what you want, but that's the reality. Now, Christianity has an explanation for why this happened. The loss of the tribes, the priesthood of Aaron, the animal sacrifice, the Temple occurred because *all* people-groups were destined by God to be partakers in Abraham's faith. This prophecy of Gen 12:3 was fulfilled in the first century. (Be sure to note that Galatians 3:7-14 is the biblical interpretation of Genesis 12:3).

* Citizenship yes. But I don't think it's the citizenship of Israel.
Feel free to prove me wrong.

* No, the Jews weren't obedient in the desert, yet they remained Israel.

* Romans 2:29 states clearly who is and is not part of Israel. Ironically, you even cite that verse. However, you still maintain that Jews need to trace physical ancestry just for the sake of being Jewish. However, verse Romans 2:29 makes it clear that there is only one requirement for a Jew that is needed to be a Jew.
I didn't write any unscriptural assertion.