Oldmantook
Well-Known Member
Ahh...we're back to Wallace again. Weren't you the one who first cited Wallace as the authority for your belief and now you cite him again to point out that he was maybe having a bad day when he wrote those things? Please make up your mind. You also have not responded to the meaning of linear and durative which the other grammars cited.Ya know, that's a real good idea. Thanks. I reviewed Wallace's grammar text on the present tense. And it was quite helpful.
First, he notes "narrow-band presents" (p.516). The action is portyared as being "in progress" or "as occurring" in the present tense (right now). One of the narrow-band presents is the "instantaneous present, also known as aoristic or punctiliar present" (p.517). He clarifies it this way: "It is normally a verb or saying or thinking (a performative present). The act itself is completed at the moment of speaking." Hm. Believing IS thinking. And it's agreeing with what is being thought of. But one doesn't perseverate on what can be thought of. So the action of believing can be thought of over and over. It's not really a continuous action. Believing fits into this kind of action as well. Just saying. Another n-b present is the "progressive present, a.k.a descriptive present" (p.518). He defines this one this way: "the progressive present normally involves continuous action (his emphasis)." He also notes this one is common.
But then, under the "broad-band presents" (p.51190, he notes one of them as a "customary(habitual or general) present" (P.521). He defined this one as "an action that regularly occurs or an ongoing state. The action is usually iterative, or repeated, but not without interruption. This usage is quite common."
Then he gives the example of the "customary present" of John 3:16 (p.522). You previously pointed out this example. He translated the verse: "everyone who [continually] believes in him should not perish".
Then he said this: "In this Gospel, there seems to be a qualitative distinction between the ongoing act of believing and the simple fact of believing."
However, there is a big problem with his obvious opinion, noted by the red words. First, he added "continually" in brackets. But he had already defined one of the narrow-band presents, the "progressive present" as one that "normally involves continuous action" (his emphasis).
So, his addition of the bracketed 'continually' to John 3:16 seems quite out of place for a broad-band present.
And to explain John 3:16 under a "customary (habitual) present" doesn't make sense, since that present is defined as "an action that regularly occurs or an ongoing state". (his emphasis on both). Believing isn't "habitual" action in any sense. Even Jesus noted that the second soil "believed for a while". btw, in v.12 the word for "believe" is an aorist active participle, and in v.13, the word "believe" is a verb in the present indicative. Clearly showing that believing isn't an ongoing action necessarily.
So all the rest of what you post seems irrelevant. It appears that Wallace got confused, or had a bad day when he wrote about the present tenses. Everyone has them, you know.
His insertion of the bracketed "continually" in front of "believes" in Jn 3:16 doesn't fit under his category of the b-b "customary (habitual) present. It DOES fit under the n-b category of the progressive present.
And..."continuous action" has NO BEARING at all on the results of that action. Or he would have included that idea. But I couldn't find it anywhere.
So, thanks for the advice. Quite helpful.
I on the other hand, have been consistent in maintaining that belief for salvation is a punctiliar action made at some point in the past (aorist) but has present and future implications as well. A believer has to continue in belief which is initiated in the past, involves the present and extends into the future as necessary for salvation whereas you focus on the past or aorist tense.
Moreover you inexplicably cite Lk 8:13 as somehow proving your view showing that "believing isn't an ongoing action necessarily." OF COURSE IT ISN'T ONGOING ACTION in this verse. Why? Because the believer STOPPED BELIEVING OF HIS OWN ACCORD when his faith was tested and he consequently fell away. Don't you read or understand the WHOLE verse? Jesus pointed out in Lk 8:13 those who "believe for a while" [present, indicative] indicative of belief occurring now at the time of redemption but at the time of being tested [present, indicative] they fall away. Thus one can believe when one is converted but later upon being tested, one no longer believes and falls away as his faith was weak and had no root which is exactly what the verse states.
And in Jn 3:16 if the Apostle John wanted to convey the idea of belief to signify a punctiliar act of belief, why didn't he use the aorist participial phrase πᾶς ὁ πιστεύσας ("all who believed") to more aptly represent an act of belief made in the past? John instead chose the present tense participle to demonstrate that ongoing belief is necessary. Which is exactly why I cited 1 Pet 1:5 which also has a present tense participle which no doubt demonstrates ongoing, continued action. You have neglected to address this similar comparison because it obviously negates your view.
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