Is the Corona Virus really all what it's made to be?

[pitabread]

The numbers are high because nobody has immunity and the media is scaring the general population with all their hype.

China, the most populous nations on the planet, effectively shut down their economy and locked down millions of people to contain the virus. That doesn't sound like hype to me.

 

[blackribbon]

China, the most populous nations on the planet, effectively shut down their economy and locked down millions of people to contain the virus. That doesn't sound like hype to me.

Did China shut down the whole nation? I thought it was mostly that providence...and guess what, they didn't have 700,000 die even though they have more people than the US. They are also getting over the virus. I doubt that people were hording ridiculous things like toilet paper in China either. People were going in and out of China the whole time...which is why it spread out of China.

 

[Tanj]

And believe it or not, hospitals don't let nurses or doctors take off when sick...3 sick days a year for a full-time nurse. The ER doctor told me that he doesn't get any sick days and has to make up any days he needs to take.

What a truly great country you live in. A healthcare system that forces sick health care providers to further infect sick people. How are you still a country?

Meanwhile for nurses here it's at last 10 days acruable P/A. With 5 weeks paid annual leave in addition.

Leave entitlements | Queensland Health

You read that right, here in Australia we value the health of our nurses to the point we give them 1 week annual leave more than the rest of us get. Imagine that.

 

[JCFantasy23]

I doubt that people were hording ridiculous things like toilet paper in China either. People were going in and out of China the whole time...which is why it spread out of China.

I thought the toilet paper craze started in that area, then Australia, first?
Coronavirus: Armed robbers steal hundreds of toilet rolls in Hong Kong
Toilet rolls are currently in short supply in Hong Kong due to shortages caused by panic-buying during the coronavirus outbreak.

 

[blackribbon]

What a truly great country you live in. A healthcare system that forces sick health care providers to further infect sick people. How are you still a country?

Meanwhile for nurses here it's at last 10 days acruable P/A. With 5 weeks paid annual leave in addition.

Leave entitlements | Queensland Health

You read that right, here in Australia we value the health of our nurses to the point we give them 1 week annual leave more than the rest of us get. Imagine that.

I agree that the US abuses their healthcare professionals. But it is the healthcare system and administrators that do it.

And if we are practicing good hygiene techniques, we are not contaminating our patients. We just suffer and maybe contaminate each other in the breakroom where we don't wear isolation gear or take off our masks to eat.

 

[FreeinChrist]

ADVISOR HAT

This thread was moved from News & Current Events to The Kitchen Sink.

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[pitabread]

Did China shut down the whole nation? I thought it was mostly that providence...and guess what, they didn't have 700,000 die even though they have more people than the US. They are also getting over the virus. I doubt that people were hording ridiculous things like toilet paper in China either. People were going in and out of China the whole time...which is why it spread out of China.

They locked down Hubei; reportedly about ~56 million people were effectively locked down. That's about the same size as some entire countries (for comparison Italy has ~60 million). The reason they appear to be getting control of the virus is because of these types of extreme measures.

Which is again, why I don't see how this is media "hype". This is a very real and very stark situation unfolding in the world.

 

[JCFantasy23]

What a truly great country you live in. A healthcare system that forces sick health care providers to further infect sick people. How are you still a country?

I know, I really figured it would be a perk to get medical benefits working in the medical field. I have a hygienist with my periodontist who was telling me she needs surgery on her shoulder but can't afford it. I was surprised and told her I figured in her field she'd get great coverage. She said she only gets dental coverage, that a lot of hygienists get zero medical insurance and she can't afford to get private insurance. I was surprised.

 

[blackribbon]

I thought the toilet paper craze started in that area, then Australia, first?
Coronavirus: Armed robbers steal hundreds of toilet rolls in Hong Kong
Toilet rolls are currently in short supply in Hong Kong due to shortages caused by panic-buying during the coronavirus outbreak.

The outbreak was not in Hong Kong. Wuhan is 600 miles from Hong Kong. I have been told this craze is because people go to the internet and look up "emergency supply kits" and since most emergencies are weather related (hurricane, blizzard, floods, etc) , toilet paper is on that list...

 

[blackribbon]

I know, I really figured it would be a perk to get medical benefits working in the medical field. I have a hygienist with my periodontist who was telling me she needs surgery on her shoulder but can't afford it. I was surprised and told her I figured in her field she'd get great coverage. She said she only gets dental coverage, that a lot of hygienists get zero medical insurance and she can't afford to get private insurance. I was surprised.

My old hospital (top 100 in the US) over-charges for our insurance and restricts us to their doctors. I limped severely for 2 years before getting surgery to replace my hip. Combination of needing to save up for the 3 months I wouldn't be able to work and not being able to get the time off to do all the steps I had to do to prove I needed this surgery. Per my pedometer, I still walked around 5 miles per shift. I didn't have any medical insurance for my family when in nursing school.

 

[blackribbon]

They locked down Hubei; reportedly about ~56 million people were effectively locked down. That's about the same size as some entire countries (for comparison Italy has ~60 million). The reason they appear to be getting control of the virus is because of these types of extreme measures.

Which is again, why I don't see how this is media "hype". This is a very real and very stark situation unfolding in the world.

They shut it down after thousands of diagnosed cases. Not after a few hundred. And they didn't shut down lives for 300 million (the population of the US).

Things are shutting down because of fear...schools wouldn't be shutting down if it was based on facts because children are at low risk with this population and may be safer at school than being at home spreading other viruses to other populations.

 

[pitabread]

Things are shutting down because of fear...schools wouldn't be shutting down if it was based on facts because children are at low risk with this population and may be safer at school than being at home spreading other viruses to other populations.

What is the basis for this? Do we know that children are lower transmission risks than others?

As for shutdowns in general, the countries that took aggressive actions early on are seemingly doing better controlling the infections compared to those that aren't. Slowing the spread of the disease should be a priority just to ease the burden on respective health care systems.

Again, I'm not seeing how any of this is "hype".

 

[tall73]

And I believe those death figures are highly inflated...because over 80% of all cases are considered "mild".

The death figures are based on the same study as the 80 percent figure.

 

[FireDragon76]

From my understanding....it only kills about 2-3% of patients.

While that gives an average 97-98% chance to live through it....the problem is that it spreads so easily.

Let's say a million people catch it (which is very possible)....that's 20,000-30,000 dead. A billion people? Tens of millions.

I've seen figures that 40-70 percent of the population could eventually contract it.

A similar percentage of the population contracted the Spanish Flu in the late 1910's.

 

[rambot]

Okay...people seldom get intubated with the flu or this virus ... unless it turns into pneumonia. Those would only be on ICU or critical care units. Most will just be on nasal cannula oxygen and possible be getting regular breathing treatment to open up their airways while they recover. These are the patients on the regular medical/surgical units like I work. This is the time of year the halls are full of isolation carts but patients with the same diagnoses may be roomed together.

This virus is likely to spread to quite a large amount of all our populations because it is new and nobody has immunity. Luckily, except in a very specific population, it isn't a bad disease. Higher fever for a day or two, a dry cough, and fatigue while you get over it. If that is all your symptoms are...STAY HOME. If you go to the hospital or doctor's office, you are more likely to catch something else on top of it and are more likely to "share" your illness. There is no reason to get a test...if you are sick, stay home and recover. That is what happens to most people with the flu. I have only got a flu test once and that was because I wanted to make sure I didn't have the flu before I went back to work. (It wasn't so I just had a "flu like" virus).

I don't know Canada's numbers but there have been to this point, 34 MILLION diagnosed cases of flu in the US this year and 20,000 died ... and the flu season isn't over. We just don't worry about the flu because most people can get over the flu at home feeling miserable for a day or two. That is exactly how this virus seems to be working.

The numbers are high because nobody has immunity and the media is scaring the general population with all their hype.

Thabks for the treatment info. That's informative.

By your numbers the flu had a mortality rate of 0.059%.

In the US, you have 1000 cases or covid and 40 deaths. If you get 34 million cases of covid at the same mortality you'll lose About 1.36 million americans.
That suggests it's at least A BIT more of a concern, non?

 

[ZNP]

Based on what? I don't have a sauna, so that isn't an option. If I show symptoms (the fever), I will go to bed with several bottles of gatorade and tylenol within reach...and only take the tylenol if my temp goes over 103 F or I get a headache that I can't stand.

If I have no symptoms because my immune system is working well, then...I won't do anything different from normal. And since there are exactly 3 confirmed cases of Covid19 in my state, I will likely have to wait until I am exposed in the hospital caring for patients. (Likely to catch it from the handrails, elevator buttons, or family members...since I will use all proper isolation methods when caring for the patients).

Many Virus don't replicate at 122 degrees F, also your body will naturally strengthen your immune system when your temperature is elevated, also, the sweating and drinking of liquid is helpful. If I was going to expose myself to a virus I would want to fully wash it off afterwards and sauna will help with that as well.

 

[Halbhh]

Yes, we will ALL likely contract it at some time or another because no of us have immunity to this new disease...like we have all contracted the flu and other viruses. That does not mean everyone who gets it will die. Some won't even know they had it because many have no symptoms.

And I believe those death figures are highly inflated...because over 80% of all cases are considered "mild".

This basic fact that perhaps everyone knows now is helpful for the extremely fearful if there are any.

But everyone should avoid the things that increase risk of transmission, to slow the spread for the sake of of the elderly and those with conditions that put them at higher risk of dying.

We healthy younger people at little risk should sacrifice some ease for the sake of others.

Extra efforts to wash hands, and the rest of the efforts.

You and me sacrifice some of our convenience, for others.

 

[tall73]

@rambot

Okay...people seldom get intubated with the flu or this virus ... unless it turns into pneumonia. Those would only be on ICU or critical care units.

From the WHO situation report for March 6:

For COVID-19, data to date suggest that 80% of infections are mild or asymptomatic, 15% are severe infection, requiring oxygen and 5% are critical infections, requiring ventilation. These fractions of severe and critical infection would be higher than what is observed for influenza infection

Here is what that five percent looked like in Italy:


Coronavirus cases are pushing Italy's hospitals to the brink

Lombardy, the region around Milan that accounts for more than a fifth of Italy’s economic output, is by far the worst-affected part of the country. It had 5,469 cases, including 440 in intensive care, as of Monday afternoon.

Cases have since increased

More than 80% of the region’s 1,123 acute care beds are dedicated to coronavirus, after many other patients have been moved elsewhere and 223 extra places have been opened to cope with the emergency. About half of those are occupied, Gallera said.

Some doctors have said that they sometimes make the call on who gets treatment based on the age of the patient. In some areas, hospitals are suspending other treatments to focus personnel on the contagion.

A doctor who asked not to be named because of potential repercussions painted a dire picture of the situation in a hospital in Milan. While the coronavirus is best known for causing severe disease in elderly patients, even some young people are affected, the doctor said, and without sufficient beds and ventilators, some can’t be treated.

The hundreds of patients needing treatment for pneumonia have swamped the supply of available specialists, the Milan doctor said. Physicians such as gastroenterologists, who normally focus on the digestive system, have been conscripted to help out with lung patients, and they’re still not enough, the doctor said.


Coronavirus: 'We must choose who to treat,' says Italian doctor


Since there is, unfortunately, a disproportion between hospital resources, resuscitation beds and critically ill patients, not everyone can be intubated,” Salaroli said. “We decide based on age and state of health,” he added.

The Extraordinary Decisions Facing Italian Doctors

Today, Italy has 10,149 cases of the coronavirus. There are now simply too many patients for each one of them to receive adequate care. Doctors and nurses are unable to tend to everybody. They lack machines to ventilate all those gasping for air.

Now the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care (SIAARTI) has published guidelines for the criteria that doctors and nurses should follow in these extraordinary circumstances.

Those who are too old to have a high likelihood of recovery, or who have too low a number of “life-years” left even if they should survive, will be left to die. This sounds cruel, but the alternative, the document argues, is no better. “In case of a total saturation of resources, maintaining the criterion of ‘first come, first served’ would amount to a decision to exclude late-arriving patients from access to intensive care.”

In addition to age, doctors and nurses are also advised to take a patient’s overall state of health into account: “The presence of comorbidities needs to be carefully evaluated.” This is in part because early studies of the virus seem to suggest that patients with serious preexisting health conditions are significantly more likely to die. But it is also because patients in a worse state of overall health could require a greater share of scarce resources to survive: “What might be a relatively short treatment course in healthier people could be longer and more resource-consuming in the case of older or more fragile patients.”


This is also the concern in the USA:


Hospitals gird for coronavirus surge after years of cutbacks

With a potential surge of coronavirus patients, there may not be enough beds, equipment and staff to handle an epidemic. Executives face tough decisions about who could have to be isolated and, in some cases, need oxygen, ventilators and protective gear that’s already in short supply.

The hospitals have already worked through a bad flu season, which has some worried that there may not be enough beds should the coronavirus cases surge, as some models predict.

“This is not going to be a financial issue,” said New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo. “If anything … it will be a capacity issue, the number of beds.”

“Given that we’ve had a month or more of prep time, we have created contingency plans and will have additional beds available … but the actual ICU beds and ventilators are somewhat fixed and those numbers are what they are,” said Mark Mulligan, director of NYU Langone Health’s division of infectious diseases and immunology.

“Every hospital has limited, finite ability to surge,” said NYU Langone's Mulligan.

 

[rambot]

@rambot



From the WHO situation report for March 6:

For COVID-19, data to date suggest that 80% of infections are mild or asymptomatic, 15% are severe infection, requiring oxygen and 5% are critical infections, requiring ventilation. These fractions of severe and critical infection would be higher than what is observed for influenza infection

Here is what that five percent looked like in Italy:


Coronavirus cases are pushing Italy's hospitals to the brink

Lombardy, the region around Milan that accounts for more than a fifth of Italy’s economic output, is by far the worst-affected part of the country. It had 5,469 cases, including 440 in intensive care, as of Monday afternoon.

Cases have since increased

More than 80% of the region’s 1,123 acute care beds are dedicated to coronavirus, after many other patients have been moved elsewhere and 223 extra places have been opened to cope with the emergency. About half of those are occupied, Gallera said.

Some doctors have said that they sometimes make the call on who gets treatment based on the age of the patient. In some areas, hospitals are suspending other treatments to focus personnel on the contagion.

A doctor who asked not to be named because of potential repercussions painted a dire picture of the situation in a hospital in Milan. While the coronavirus is best known for causing severe disease in elderly patients, even some young people are affected, the doctor said, and without sufficient beds and ventilators, some can’t be treated.

The hundreds of patients needing treatment for pneumonia have swamped the supply of available specialists, the Milan doctor said. Physicians such as gastroenterologists, who normally focus on the digestive system, have been conscripted to help out with lung patients, and they’re still not enough, the doctor said.


Coronavirus: 'We must choose who to treat,' says Italian doctor


Since there is, unfortunately, a disproportion between hospital resources, resuscitation beds and critically ill patients, not everyone can be intubated,” Salaroli said. “We decide based on age and state of health,” he added.

The Extraordinary Decisions Facing Italian Doctors

Today, Italy has 10,149 cases of the coronavirus. There are now simply too many patients for each one of them to receive adequate care. Doctors and nurses are unable to tend to everybody. They lack machines to ventilate all those gasping for air.

Now the Italian College of Anesthesia, Analgesia, Resuscitation and Intensive Care (SIAARTI) has published guidelines for the criteria that doctors and nurses should follow in these extraordinary circumstances.

Those who are too old to have a high likelihood of recovery, or who have too low a number of “life-years” left even if they should survive, will be left to die. This sounds cruel, but the alternative, the document argues, is no better. “In case of a total saturation of resources, maintaining the criterion of ‘first come, first served’ would amount to a decision to exclude late-arriving patients from access to intensive care.”

In addition to age, doctors and nurses are also advised to take a patient’s overall state of health into account: “The presence of comorbidities needs to be carefully evaluated.” This is in part because early studies of the virus seem to suggest that patients with serious preexisting health conditions are significantly more likely to die. But it is also because patients in a worse state of overall health could require a greater share of scarce resources to survive: “What might be a relatively short treatment course in healthier people could be longer and more resource-consuming in the case of older or more fragile patients.”


This is also the concern in the USA:


Hospitals gird for coronavirus surge after years of cutbacks

With a potential surge of coronavirus patients, there may not be enough beds, equipment and staff to handle an epidemic. Executives face tough decisions about who could have to be isolated and, in some cases, need oxygen, ventilators and protective gear that’s already in short supply.

The hospitals have already worked through a bad flu season, which has some worried that there may not be enough beds should the coronavirus cases surge, as some models predict.

“This is not going to be a financial issue,” said New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo. “If anything … it will be a capacity issue, the number of beds.”

“Given that we’ve had a month or more of prep time, we have created contingency plans and will have additional beds available … but the actual ICU beds and ventilators are somewhat fixed and those numbers are what they are,” said Mark Mulligan, director of NYU Langone Health’s division of infectious diseases and immunology.

“Every hospital has limited, finite ability to surge,” said NYU Langone's Mulligan.

beautiful, information filled post. Thanks!

 

[blackribbon]

What is the basis for this? Do we know that children are lower transmission risks than others?

As for shutdowns in general, the countries that took aggressive actions early on are seemingly doing better controlling the infections compared to those that aren't. Slowing the spread of the disease should be a priority just to ease the burden on respective health care systems.

Again, I'm not seeing how any of this is "hype".

Yes, we know that kids for some reason don't suffer from this virus very often. None of the deaths in China were in children.

It is hype in that we don't act the same way for other highly communicable diseases that people are dying from on a daily basis and in higher numbers.

I wish that I could take advantage of the super cheap airfares and cruises. However, nurses won't be able to get time off (and we seem to be the primary people not that worried about the virus or traveling).