President's Remarks at Prayer Breakfast

[Skewpoint]

I understand. It's just that it seems that when the side that doesn't like someone plays the race card, it never gets withdrawn, no matter what the evidence. When a person is labeled as racist, it doesn't matter if they have black friends, black employees, or even a black spouse. All evidence to the contrary of the racist accusation is dismissed as irrelevant.

I can see how that would be frustrating. What is also frustrating is showing evidence that someone may have racist tendencies, and that evidence getting hand waved away because hey, they have a black friend.

 

[Aldebaran]

I can see how that would be frustrating. What is also frustrating is showing evidence that someone may have racist tendencies, and that evidence getting hand waved away because hey, they have a black friend.

If they have a black friend, then is that evidence of being a racist, or evidence that they aren't?

 

[Skewpoint]

If they have a black friend, then is that evidence of being a racist, or evidence that they aren't?

It counts as evidence. Weak evidence, but evidence nonetheless. So it's a matter of weighing what evidence holds more weight. If said person has a history of not loaning/renting to black people, publically putting in a newspaper that 5 black teens who didn't do what they were charged with should STILL be executed, and showing support to groups who have either have explicit racist goals or at least show racist tendencies.... then the evidence of having a black friend doesn't do much to quell my judgment of their character. Makes sense?

 

[Aldebaran]

It counts as evidence. Weak evidence, but evidence nonetheless. So it's a matter of weighing what evidence holds more weight. If said person has a history of not loaning/renting to black people, publically putting in a newspaper that 5 black teens who didn't do what they were charged with should STILL be executed, and showing support to groups who have either have explicit racist goals or at least show racist tendencies.... then the evidence of having a black friend doesn't do much to quell my judgment of their character. Makes sense?

Assuming all those things were accurate as stated.
What if a person was called racist, but they rented out apartments to black people? Is that evidence of not being racist, or is it called "weak evidence" for not being racist? If a person had friends who were black (evidence dismissed by most), is it just as weak of evidence if a person had all white friends that they are racist?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Assuming all those things were accurate as stated.
What if a person was called racist, but they rented out apartments to black people?

I dunno, but that's not very relevant to Trump, whose company didn't rent apartments to some black people.

The lawsuit was based on evidence gathered by testers for the New York City Human Rights Division, which alleged that black people who went to Trump buildings were told there were no apartments available, while white people were offered units.

OK, ok, the case was settled with no admission of guilt, but....

"[The settlement] required the Trumps to place ads in newspapers saying that they welcomed black applicants," Kranish says. "It said that the Trumps would familiarize themselves with the Fair Housing Act, which prohibited discrimination. So it also specifically said they don't admit wrongdoing, but they did have to take several measures that the Trumps had fought for two years not to take."

 

[Skewpoint]

Assuming all those things were accurate as stated.
What if a person was called racist, but they rented out apartments to black people? Is that evidence of not being racist, or is it called "weak evidence" for not being racist? If a person had friends who were black (evidence dismissed by most), is it just as weak of evidence if a person had all white friends that they are racist?

I'd say there's ample evidence that those things are accurate. Trumper's have shown me to be poor evaluators of evidence so I don't usually bother going too deep into conversation with them anymore. Pearls before swine, or something like that. Hope my original answer was satisfactory to your questions. I have my doubts though.

 

[Aldebaran]

I dunno, but that's not very relevant to Trump, whose company didn't rent apartments to some black people.

The lawsuit was based on evidence gathered by testers for the New York City Human Rights Division, which alleged that black people who went to Trump buildings were told there were no apartments available, while white people were offered units.

OK, ok, the case was settled with no admission of guilt, but....

"[The settlement] required the Trumps to place ads in newspapers saying that they welcomed black applicants," Kranish says. "It said that the Trumps would familiarize themselves with the Fair Housing Act, which prohibited discrimination. So it also specifically said they don't admit wrongdoing, but they did have to take several measures that the Trumps had fought for two years not to take."

That's a funny requirement! Too bad it didn't also require that the ad say that gays were also welcome. Otherwise, a new lawsuit could be filed that claims he must be biased against homosexuals since the ad says blacks are welcome but is silent on the subject of gays, leaving the door open to discrimination.

 

[Aldebaran]

I'd say there's ample evidence that those things are accurate. Trumper's have shown me to be poor evaluators of evidence so I don't usually bother going too deep into conversation with them anymore. Pearls before swine, or something like that. Hope my original answer was satisfactory to your questions. I have my doubts though.

It seems that you have made a blanket judgement against an entire group based on who they voted for. That being the case, there's no point in conversing with you any further. I voted for Trump (I guess that qualifies me for the slur you used) and intend to again.

 

[essentialsaltes]

That's a funny requirement! Too bad it didn't also require that the ad say that gays were also welcome. Otherwise, a new lawsuit could be filed that claims he must be biased against homosexuals since the ad says blacks are welcome but is silent on the subject of gays, leaving the door open to discrimination.

You seem to be having trouble understanding cause and effect.

The first lawsuit was inspired by the Trump property turning away black applicants with the excuse that they were full, while accepting white applicants.

The ad was a remedy resulting from the lawsuit settlement stemming from that.

The Trumps could close the door to discrimination against gay people by not discriminating against gay people. No lawsuits came from ads.

 

[Aldebaran]

You seem to be having trouble understanding cause and effect.

The first lawsuit was inspired by the Trump property turning away black applicants with the excuse that they were full, while accepting white applicants.

The ad was a remedy resulting from the lawsuit settlement stemming from that.

The Trumps could close the door to discrimination against gay people by not discriminating against gay people.

The ad is for the public to see when they're looking for an apartment, correct? If I was apartment-hunting and came across an ad that said, "We accept gay/black/transsexual, etc. people", it would make me do a double-take. I would wonder why any particular group was even mentioned specifically as being accepted and why everyone else was left out.

No lawsuits came from ads.

You're right. They come from accusations.

 

[essentialsaltes]

You're right. They come from accusations.

No, evidence.

the lawsuit was based on evidence gathered by testers for the New York City Human Rights Division,

 

[Aldebaran]

No, evidence.

the lawsuit was based on evidence gathered by testers for the New York City Human Rights Division,

I mean, they originally come from an accusation being made. Whether or not the lawsuit stands up in court and results in a ruling by a judge in the plaintiff's favor is dependent on substantial evidence. If it's not there, then of course there may or may not be a settlement agreed on.

 

[iluvatar5150]

If Trump fired him, your side would be accusing Trump of being racist. He didn't fire him, and now you still believe he must be racist.
What would Trump have to do to convince you otherwise? FYI: Saying, "He would need to stop being racist" is not a valid argument. That type of argument only shows how weak your position is.

I understand. It's just that it seems that when the side that doesn't like someone plays the race card, it never gets withdrawn, no matter what the evidence. When a person is labeled as racist, it doesn't matter if they have black friends, black employees, or even a black spouse. All evidence to the contrary of the racist accusation is dismissed as irrelevant.

That's because racism (or any kind of bigotry, really) is more complicated than the absurdly-simplistic dichotomy you present where a person must hate all people of one demographic and completely avoid them altogether if one is to be qualified as "racist".

To answer your question: in addition to the examples that @Skewpoint gave, Trump could also apologize for pushing a conspiracy theory about Obama's birth certificate and attacking the birthplaces of "The Squad" - both of which leaned on racist perceptions of non-white liberals being unAmerican.

 

[Aldebaran]

That's because racism (or any kind of bigotry, really) is more complicated than the absurdly-simplistic dichotomy you present where a person must hate all people of one demographic and completely avoid them altogether if one is to be qualified as "racist".

Is a person who has black friends and yet doesn't like certain other people who are black still considered racist just because the people he doesn't like are black?

To answer your question: in addition to the examples that @Skewpoint gave, Trump could also apologize for pushing a conspiracy theory about Obama's birth certificate and attacking the birthplaces of "The Squad" - both of which leaned on racist perceptions of non-white liberals being unAmerican.

Since there was evidence that Obama was born outside the country that has nothing to do with Obama's skin color, then the idea that he wasn't born in America is racist ignores all other evidence and hides behind the race card.

As for the "Squad" birthplace (Somalia was specifically referenced), did Trump say anything about that country that wasn't true? Or does any negative comment about a non-white majority country automatically get the "racist" label?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Since there was evidence that Obama was born outside the country

No, there wasn't.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Is a person who has black friends and yet doesn't like certain other people who are black still considered racist just because the people he doesn't like are black?

Having black friends (or lovers) doesn't mean someone isn't racist.

Since there was evidence that Obama was born outside the country

Not really, no.

that has nothing to do with Obama's skin color, then the idea that he wasn't born in America is racist ignores all other evidence and hides behind the race card.

Any evidence that supposedly existed was extremely weak. His birth certificate existed, and even after it was produced, the Birthers still concocted fantasies about how it was a forgery.

What's really racist is the notion that a black liberal isn't a real American, and it's that notion into which the Birther conspiracy tapped. Even if the Birthers were right and Obama really was born in a foreign country to an American mother and a foreign father, so was Ted Cruz, yet very, very few people said anything about Ted Cruz' eligibility to be president or expressed any concern that he wasn't an American. Because Ted Cruz isn't black and he isn't a liberal.

As for the "Squad" birthplace (Somalia was specifically referenced), did Trump say anything about that country that wasn't true? Or does any negative comment about a non-white majority country automatically get the "racist" label?

Please, do a little homework before you try to make a rebuttal. Everything you said there is incorrect.

No, Somalia wasn't specifically referenced.
Donald J. Trump on Twitter

In fact, he's only tweeted about Somalia or Somalis six times and none of them had anything to do with Omar:
Trump Twitter Archive

And yes, Trump did say things that weren't true. He implied that they all weren't born in the US. It's this suggestion that's racist and now you're on the verge of acting as an apologist for it.

 

[Aldebaran]

No, there wasn't.

The fact that Obama was so hesitant to release his long-form birth certificate for so long was evidence, along with all the discrepancies in it once it was publicized. It may not be evidence that you believe, but it is evidence.

 

[Aldebaran]

Having black friends (or lovers) doesn't mean someone isn't racist.

IOW, presumed guilty as accused no matter what.

What's really racist is the notion that a black liberal isn't a real American, and it's that notion into which the Birther conspiracy tapped.

That's a liberal fantasy right there. Most people who are black vote for democrats, yet nobody is calling for all black people to be deported to Africa on the idea that they must not be American because they're liberal.

Even if the Birthers were right and Obama really was born in a foreign country to an American mother and a foreign father, so was Ted Cruz, yet very, very few people said anything about Ted Cruz' eligibility to be president or expressed any concern that he wasn't an American. Because Ted Cruz isn't black and he isn't a liberal.

Whataboutism.

Please, do a little homework before you try to make a rebuttal. Everything you said there is incorrect.

No, Somalia wasn't specifically referenced.
Donald J. Trump on Twitter

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1150381394234941448

Somalia was her birth country, correct? Then what country do you think he was referring to when he said, "originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe"?

And yes, Trump did say things that weren't true. He implied that they all weren't born in the US. It's this suggestion that's racist and now you're on the verge of acting as an apologist for it.

What do countries have to do with race? And why do you try to equate one with the other?

 

[iluvatar5150]

IOW, presumed guilty as accused no matter what.

No. It doesn't presume guilt. What it does is disqualify certain evidence from proving innocence.

That you don't have blood on your hands right now doesn't mean that you're guilty of murdering a guy last week, but neither does it mean you're innocent.

That's a liberal fantasy right there. Most people who are black vote for democrats, yet nobody is calling for all black people to be deported to Africa

Who said anything about being deported to Africa?

on the idea that they must not be American because they're liberal.

Oh really? You want me to catalog all the times folks on the left or from urban areas were have been derided as not "real Americans"?

Here are a few:
Real America - Conservapedia

The 'real' America, really (I realize it's an op-ed but it's got quotes)

Donald J. Trump on Twitter

Monday Quotes: The Truth Detector!

https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/...by_media_attempting_to_cash_in_on_narratives/

New School Prayer Story Bodes Well

The Super Bowl Wasn’t the Greatest Game Ever

Montana: Dems Spin Another Loss as a Win

Political Correctness Run Amok Costs Juan Williams His Job at NPR


I can find a bunch more if you'd like.

Whataboutism.

It isn't whataboutism. It shows that their concerns about a foreign interloper gaining the presidency were disingenuous.

Somalia was her birth country, correct? Then what country do you think he was referring to when he said, "originally came from countries whose governments are a complete and total catastrophe"?

He made no distinction between the four of them. Three of them were born in the US and Omar is a naturalized citizen. Even he had only singled out Omar (which he didn't), the idea underpinning his comments was that she doesn't have any business participating in government, partly because of where she comes from. That's racist and it's unamerican.

What do countries have to do with race? And why do you try to equate one with the other?

Really? Are there a lot of white people being born in Somalia?

Either way, I meant to clarify that line - his message was that they didn't belong here and didn't belong in our government and he used their national origin to bolster that point.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The fact that Obama was so hesitant to release his long-form birth certificate for so long was evidence

Nonsense. In 2008, Obama provided a perfectly valid document. The 'long form' is not something one ordinarily has access to. The State of Hawai'i had to make a special exception to release it. The 'delay' by the state of Hawai'i is not evidence that he was born 'not in Hawai'i'.

In 2008, in response to media inquiries, the President’s campaign requested his birth certificate from the state of Hawaii. The state sent the campaign the President’s birth certificate, the same legal documentation provided to all Hawaiians as proof of birth in state, and the campaign immediately posted it on the internet. That birth certificate can be seen here (PDF).

When any citizen born in Hawaii requests their birth certificate, they receive exactly what the President received. In fact, the document posted on the campaign website is what Hawaiians use to get a driver’s license from the state and the document recognized by the Federal Government and the courts for all legal purposes. That’s because it is the birth certificate. This is not and should not be an open question.

The President believed the distraction over his birth certificate wasn’t good for the country. It may have been good politics and good TV, but it was bad for the American people and distracting from the many challenges we face as a country. Therefore, the President directed his counsel to review the legal authority for seeking access to the long form certificate and to request on that basis that the Hawaii State Department of Health make an exception to release a copy of his long form birth certificate. They granted that exception in part because of the tremendous volume of requests they had been getting.