I wonder about the literalism of the first five books of the OT

summerville

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Jesus and the rest of the Bible talk about it as a real history with real people and events. The Genesis flood is a good place to test it. There are a lot of good scientist who can show great evidence for this being a literal flood that did indeed cover the whole world. The genealogy proceeds from Adam and Eve to Noah and Eve. DNA testing shows we all have the same 1st two original parents.

Of course there are scientists and vulcanists and geologists who are Christian, but they don't take Noah's flood story literally.

11. Artefacts and anachronisms | Rob J Hyndman
11. Artefacts and anachronisms | Rob J Hyndman
The early books of the Old Testament show clear evidence of being written much later. Abraham is portrayed as having camels, yet camels were not domesticated until a thousand years later 3. He is said to come from “Ur of the Chaldees”, yet the city of Ur was in southern Mesopotamia and the Chaldeans did not occupy the region until about 1000 BC.
 
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miamited

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Camels, Ur of the Chaldeans for starters.

Archaeology Find: Camels In 'Bible' Are Literary Anachronisms
https://www.npr.org/2014/02/14/276782474/the-genesis-of-camels
Feb 14, 2014 · That's just one of dozens of camel cameos in the Bible, mostly in the book of Genesis, but scholars have long suspected that those camel caravans are a literary anachronism. And now more evidence from two Israeli archaeologists. Their radio carbon technology dated the earliest known remains of domesticated camels.

Hi summerville,

Just a heads up. I think you're responding to the wrong post. I'm not sure I understand how 'camel cameos' as some sort of anachronism applies to my post. Perhaps you meant to direct your explanation to RLH. I'm also not sure that you understand the definition of 'anachronism'.

The example given by Oxford dictionary is:
a thing belonging or appropriate to a period other than that in which it exists, especially a thing that is conspicuously old-fashioned.
"everything was as it would have appeared in centuries past apart from one anachronism, a bright yellow construction crane"

In the example above the 'bright yellow crane' which is mentioned as the anachronism was really a bright yellow crane. It was just something that was out of place, of another time period, than the rest of the panorama. Anachronism doesn't mean that what ever the anachronism is, isn't some real thing that actually exists literally as it is seen.

BTW, I'm fairly confident that camels did exist, and were used more for travel and trade in the days of the old testament, then even today. They would not have been out of place in the middle east, although you may be reading the word 'camel' in more places than it actually is written.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Of course there are scientists and vulcanists and geologists who are Christian, but they don't take Noah's flood story literally.

11. Artefacts and anachronisms | Rob J Hyndman
11. Artefacts and anachronisms | Rob J Hyndman
The early books of the Old Testament show clear evidence of being written much later. Abraham is portrayed as having camels, yet camels were not domesticated until a thousand years later 3. He is said to come from “Ur of the Chaldees”, yet the city of Ur was in southern Mesopotamia and the Chaldeans did not occupy the region until about 1000 BC.

So unless everyone in the region used camels Abraham couldn't have? Maybe few could afford to own a camel. After all dowries were often paid in livestock in those days. The "Ten Horse Woman" is a native American tale.
 
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JackRT

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There are a lot of good scientist who can show great evidence for this being a literal flood that did indeed cover the whole world.

There may be several grains of truth to the flood mythology of Noah and similar mythologies from elsewhere in the ancient Middle East. About 30 years ago it was discovered (" Noah's Flood" by Ryan and Pitman) that in antiquity the Black Sea was a freshwater lake with a water level at least 155 meters (510 feet) below its present level. It was cut off from the Mediterranean Sea by a silt plug in the Straits of Bosporus. This plug broke through about 7600 YBP due primarily to the dramatic rise in sea levels caused by the melting that ended the last ice age.. It created an immense waterfall whose sound was most likely audible for 100 or more miles. The Black Sea basin filled to its present level over a period of several weeks. It is estimated that the shore line advanced at the rate of a mile or more per day. For the people living around the lake it was a catastrophe of immense magnitude. It was likely the single most memorable flood in all of human history. The racial memory of this event probably inspired the Gilgamesh epic which in turn inspired the Noah narrative in the Bible. The evidence for this flood is scientifically solid. This prompted the National Geographic Society to finance an underwater search along the ancient shoreline for evidence of pre-flood human habitation. This search has been successful! A settlement has been found at a depth of 90 meters approximately 12 miles off the coast of Turkey. It is in a remarkable state of preservation because it is located in an area of the Black Sea where the water is completely devoid of oxygen with the effect that biological decomposition does not take place. This means that wooden artifacts such as tools, planks, housing beams etc are preserved intact. What is also quite amazing is that while there is solid scientific evidence for this local flood some 7600 YBP, there is no evidence at all for a worldwide flood just 4300 YBP. One would think that a more recent, more catastrophic event would have wiped out evidence of the earlier Black Sea event. There is also evidence for a similar event causing the flooding of the Gulf of Arabia about 10,000 YBP.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Hi summerville,

Just a heads up. I think you're responding to the wrong post. I'm not sure I understand how 'camel cameos' as some sort of anachronism applies to my post. Perhaps you meant to direct your explanation to RLH. I'm also not sure that you understand the definition of 'anachronism'.

The example given by Oxford dictionary is:
a thing belonging or appropriate to a period other than that in which it exists, especially a thing that is conspicuously old-fashioned.
"everything was as it would have appeared in centuries past apart from one anachronism, a bright yellow construction crane"

In the example above the 'bright yellow crane' which is mentioned as the anachronism was really a bright yellow crane. It was just something that was out of place, of another time period, than the rest of the panorama. Anachronism doesn't mean that what ever the anachronism is, isn't some real thing that actually exists literally as it is seen.

BTW, I'm fairly confident that camels did exist, and were used more for travel and trade in the days of the old testament, then even today. They would not have been out of place in the middle east, although you may be reading the word 'camel' in more places than it actually is written.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Agreed. It is almost certain that animals were used domestically from the very beginning. They were there for the taking and domesticating.
 
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miamited

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Biblical Glass Mirrors = Anachronism
Howsoever the Woman in Song of Songs knew she was beautiful, it could not have been by way of modern glass mirrors. These did not exist in the ancient world and the Bible does not know any. Both the 1611 King James and 1582 Douay-Rheims versions lie when they anachronistically betray Paul in 1 Corinthians 13:12

(KJV) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Anachronism is killing our understanding of Sacred Scripture!

Hi summerville,

Again, I believe that you're wrong. First of all, the account doesn't say that it's a glass mirror, so yes, it likely wasn't a 'modern glass mirror'. However, when I polish my black Chrysler Town and Country it's as much a mirror as any 'modern glass mirror'. You see, friend, the 'modern glass' description that you want to sneak into your understanding is exactly that...your personal interpretation of what 'mirror' means. A mirror is merely any reflective device. Here, for your edification, is an explanation of what mirrors may have been like in the Song of Songs days:

The earliest man made mirrors were from polished stone and mirrors made form black volcanic glass obsidian. ... It is believed that mirrors made of metal-backed glass this type of mirror was first produced in Lebanon in the first century AD and the Romans made crude mirrors from blown glass with lead backings.

According to ncbi' National Center for Biotechnology Institute, the use of reflective devices as mirrors dates back at least 8,000 years. Hmmmmmm?

While your evidence regarding camels does make the claim that they weren't domesticated until after the time of Abraham and their mention in the Scriptures, just for laughs here's something to think about showing what we may really know about the history of camels.

Despite their strong association with the Middle East and Africa, camels actually originated in North America some 45 million years ago. Between 3 and 5 million years ago, they crossed the Bering land bridge to Eurasia and eventually migrated south.

Apparently, according to this evidence, camels have been on the Eurasia continent for some 3-5 million years. Hmmmmm?

Who to believe? Who to believe? The Scriptures.....or some blog speaker on NPR.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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JackRT

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Camels, Ur of the Chaldeans for starters.

Archaeology Find: Camels In 'Bible' Are Literary Anachronisms
https://www.npr.org/2014/02/14/276782474/the-genesis-of-camels
Feb 14, 2014 · That's just one of dozens of camel cameos in the Bible, mostly in the book of Genesis, but scholars have long suspected that those camel caravans are a literary anachronism. And now more evidence from two Israeli archaeologists. Their radio carbon technology dated the earliest known remains of domesticated camels.

This would seem to be evidence in support of the documentary htpothesis.
 
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redleghunter

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Agreed. It is almost certain that animals were used domestically from the very beginning. They were there for the taking and domesticating.
The scholarship behind "no domesticated camels" before 900BC is based on excavations in a copper mine in Sinai from around the time of Solomon.

What they found is that camels were used for mining at that site. What the scholars (who are not shy about their skeptical views on the Bible) concluded is that based on the mine excavation there could not possibly be any camels domesticated before that time. Considering there is ample scholarship refuting this claim as in the domestication of camels for dairy products and for use on long caravans and journeys.

Bible Wins Debate Carbon-Dated Camel Bones

5 Things You Need to Know About Camels and Biblical Accuracy | Transformed

Camels in the Bible
 
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OldWiseGuy

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There may be several grains of truth to the flood mythology of Noah and similar mythologies from elsewhere in the ancient Middle East. About 30 years ago it was discovered (" Noah's Flood" by Ryan and Pitman) that in antiquity the Black Sea was a freshwater lake with a water level at least 155 meters (510 feet) below its present level. It was cut off from the Mediterranean Sea by a silt plug in the Straits of Bosporus. This plug broke through about 7600 YBP due primarily to the dramatic rise in sea levels caused by the melting that ended the last ice age.. It created an immense waterfall whose sound was most likely audible for 100 or more miles. The Black Sea basin filled to its present level over a period of several weeks. It is estimated that the shore line advanced at the rate of a mile or more per day. For the people living around the lake it was a catastrophe of immense magnitude. It was likely the single most memorable flood in all of human history. The racial memory of this event probably inspired the Gilgamesh epic which in turn inspired the Noah narrative in the Bible. The evidence for this flood is scientifically solid. This prompted the National Geographic Society to finance an underwater search along the ancient shoreline for evidence of pre-flood human habitation. This search has been successful! A settlement has been found at a depth of 90 meters approximately 12 miles off the coast of Turkey. It is in a remarkable state of preservation because it is located in an area of the Black Sea where the water is completely devoid of oxygen with the effect that biological decomposition does not take place. This means that wooden artifacts such as tools, planks, housing beams etc are preserved intact. What is also quite amazing is that while there is solid scientific evidence for this local flood some 7600 YBP, there is no evidence at all for a worldwide flood just 4300 YBP. One would think that a more recent, more catastrophic event would have wiped out evidence of the earlier Black Sea event. There is also evidence for a similar event causing the flooding of the Gulf of Arabia about 10,000 YBP.

Perhaps if the biblical flood were studied scientifically. Science as well as Christians fail to look at crucial details in the flood story.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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The scholarship behind "no domesticated camels" before 900BC is based on excavations in a copper mine in Sinai from around the time of Solomon.

What they found is that camels were used for mining at that site. What the scholars (who are not shy about their skeptical views on the Bible) concluded is that based on the mine excavation there could not possibly be any camels domesticated before that time. Considering there is ample scholarship refuting this claim as in the domestication of camels for dairy products and for use on long caravans and journeys.

Bible Wins Debate Carbon-Dated Camel Bones

5 Things You Need to Know About Camels and Biblical Accuracy | Transformed

Camels in the Bible

It seems that if there weren't a bazillion camel bones that revealed heavy loads they just...didn't exist. It is more likely that few did exist in Abrahams day. Too few to leave discoverable remains. It would be like finding no Rolls-Royce's in a junkyard and concluding that they didn't exist.
 
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redleghunter

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This would seem to be evidence in support of the documentary htpothesis.
The camels or Ur?

If Ur probably not as Josephus and other historians in his time and after put Ur in the northern Mesopotamia. Where some thought Ur was in the south did not occur until much later.

Lower Mesopotamia[edit]
Eusebius in his Preparation for the Gospel[11] preserves a fragment of the work Concerning the Jews by the 1st century BCE historian Alexander Polyhistor, which in turn quotes a passage in Concerning the Jews of Assyria by the 2nd century BCE historian Eupolemus, which claimed that Abraham was born in the Babylonian city Camarina, which it notes was also called "Uria". (Such indirect quotations of Eupolemus via Polyhistor are referred to as Pseudo-Eupolemus.) This site is identified by modern scholars with the Sumerian city of Ur located at Tell el-Mukayyar, which in ancient texts was named Uriwa or Urima.

Woolley's identification of Ur[edit]
In 1927 Leonard Woolley identified Ur Kaśdim with the Sumerian city of Ur (founded c. 3800 BCE), in southern Mesopotamia, where the Chaldeans settled much later (around the 9th century BCE);[12] Ur lay on the boundary of the region later called Kaldu (Chaldea, corresponding to Hebrew Kaśdim) in the first millennium BCE. It was the sacred city of the moon god and the name "Camarina" is thought to be related to the much later appearing Arabic word for "moon": qamar. The identification of Sumerian Ur with Ur Kaśdim accords with the view that Abraham's ancestors may have been moon-worshippers, an idea based on the possibility that the name of Abraham's father Terah is related to the Hebrew root for moon (y-r-h).

Woolley's identification became the mainstream scholarly opinion on the location of Biblical Ur Kasdim, despite the earlier traditions that Ur Kasdim should lie in Assyria in Northern Mesopotamia.[13] Woolley's identification was challenged with the discovery of the Assyrian city of Harran in northern Mesopotamia, near the present-day village of Altınbaşak in modern Turkey (archaeological excavations at Harran began in the 1950s).

Recent archaeological work focuses on the area of Nasiriyah (in southern Iraq), where the remains of the ancient Ziggurat of Ur stand.[14][15][5]

Identification with Uruk[edit]
According to T.G. Pinches[16] and A.T. Clay,[17][18] some Talmudic and medieval Arabic writers identified Ur of the Chaldees with the Sumerian city of Uruk, called Erech in the Bible and Warka in Arabic. Both scholars reject the equation. Talmud Yoma 10a identifies Erech with a place called "Urichus",[19] and no tradition exists equating Ur Kaśdim with Urichus or Erech/Uruk.

Upper Mesopotamia[edit]
Jewish scholarship identifies Abraham's birthplace as somewhere in Upper Mesopotamia. This view was particularly noted by Nachmanides (Ramban).[20] Nevertheless, this interpretation of moledet as meaning "birthplace" is not universal. Many Pentateuchal translations, from the Septuagint to some modern English versions, render moledet as "kindred" or "family".

Writing in the 4th century CE, Ammianus Marcellinus in his Rerum Gestarum Libri (chapter VIII) mentions a castle named Ur which lay between Hatra and Nisibis. A. T. Clay understood this as an identification of Ur Kaśdim, although Marcellinus makes no explicit claim in this regard. In her Travels (chapter XX), Egeria, recording travels dated to the early 380s CE, mentions Hur lying five stations from Nisibis on the way to Persia, apparently the same location, and she does identify it with Ur Kaśdim. However, the castle in question was only founded during the time of the second Persian Empire (224-651).

Tradition of Sanliurfa[edit]
Another possible location for Ur of the Chaldees (Ur Kasdim) is the ancient Assyrian and Seleucid city Edessa, now called Şanlıurfa. According to some Jewish traditions, this is the site where Abraham was cast into a furnace by Nimrod as punishment for his monotheistic beliefs, but miraculously escaped unscathed. [21]

The Turkish name for the city, Urfa, is derived from the earlier Syriac ܐܘܪܗܝ (Orhāy) and Greek Ορρα (Orrha), the city being a major centre of Assyrian-Syriac Christianity.[21]

Islamic tradition holds that the site of Abraham's birth is a cave situated near the center of Şanlıurfa. The Halil-Ur Rahman Mosque lies in the vicinity of the cave.[22][23]

Rendsburg points out that this location makes better sense of the Biblical references, especially that if Teraḥ and family left Ur-Kasdim to travel to Canaan, but stopped en route in Ḥarran, then the location of Ur-Kasdim should be to the north of Ḥarran. [24]

Urkesh[edit]
According to A.S. Issar, Ur Kasdim is identified with the site of Urkesh – the capital of the Hurrian Kingdom, now in northeastern Syria. It is further hypothesized that the Biblical travel of Abraham's kin from Urkesh to Harran in order to reach Canaan is much more reasonable than a travel from the Sumerian city of Ur.[13]

Ur of the Chaldees - Wikipedia

Ur of the Chaldees
UR OF THE CHALDEES (א֥וּר כַּשְׂדִּֽים, Gr. χῶρα (τῶν) Χαλδάιον). City in Mesopotamia from which Abraham migrated to Haran (Gen 11:28, 31; 15:7; Neh 9:7).

1. Name and location. Until 1850, “Ur of the Chaldees” was considered to be Urfa, near Haran, S. Turkey, where there is a local tradition of Abraham’s residence to which he sent in search for a wife for Isaac (Gen 24:1-10) from the “land of his nativity.” This view has been recently revived by Cyrus H. Gordon, who interprets the OT as implying a northern tradition (he places it at Ura’ near Harran) and that Abraham was a merchant prince. He considers that the term “Chaldee” can be adequately explained as a reference to N Mesopotamia (as he thinks is meant by Isa 23:13). Against this it must be noted that any tradition of Abraham at Urfa/Edessa goes back only to the 8th-9th cent. a.d. The OT scarcely implies that Abraham was a merchant or that he moved only a short distance from Ur to Haran. Moreover “the land of my nativity” (Gen 24:7) could equally be tr. “land of my kindred.” There are also several places called Ura’, one a seaport in Cilicia, another a Hitt. fortress in NE Anatolia.

In favor of a more southerly location can be cited local tradition which is strong, linking Abraham both with Warka (Erech) and Kutha (Tell Ibrahīm) and, by Eusebius (on Eupolemus c. 100 b.c.) with Kamerina (“the moon-city”) of Babylonia, called by some the city Urie. By 1866 the name U-ri was read on several buildings and other inscrs. from the site of Tell el-Muqayyar in S Iraq, 6 m. SE of Nasiriyah on the Euphrates River. This ancient city of Ur certainly lay in territory called Kaldu (Chaldaea) from the early first millennium b.c. Since this area was normally named after the tribes living there, and no earlier general name for the area is known, it would be unscientific to call the reference to Ur “of the Chaldees” in the second millennium an anachronism. The southern identification for the Biblical Ur is followed here.

2. Excavations. In 1853-1854 J. E. Taylor, British Vice-Consul at Basra was asked by the British Museum to investigate the site of “Múgeyer.” He explored the ziggurrat and vicinity. A few soundings were made by R. C. Thompson in 1918 and shortly afterward by H. R. Hall who, however, concentrated on al ’Ubaid, 4 m. to NW, where he found a circular oval with a decorated temple of Ninhursag in use from prehistoric (’Ubaid) levels (c. 4000 b.c.) until the third dynasty of Ur (2113-2066). From 1922-1934 a joint expedition of the British Museum and University Museum of Pennsylvania led by (Sir) C. L. Woolley excavated large areas of the site which measured 1,200 x 675 meters and housed an estimated population of c. 34,000, possibly representing a quarter of a million persons in the whole of the Greater Ur district.

a. Ziggurat. The three-staged step pyramid tower built by Ur-Nammu (2113-2096) and remodeled by Nabonidus (556-539 b.c.) dominated the city. This massive structure of burnt-brick skin over a mud brick core of 200 x 150 ft. originally stood to a height of 70 ft. above the plain, though only 50 ft. of the lowest platform now remains. There is some evidence that the different stages were each colored differently below the silver one-roomed shrine of Nannar, the mood-god, at the top. The terraces were planted with trees. Identification of the ziggurat of Ur by name, and of the work of restoration by Nabonidus are provided by foundation deposits found at the corners of the building. Close by the ziggurat, which rose from an inner court, is found a shrine of Ningal and, in the angle formed by the main stairway leading up into the ziggurat, two small chapels. Around the wall were associated kitchens. A single gateway (Edublalmah) led into the sacred area with its open-air altar and large storehouse for receiving offerings. On this temenos was a temple for Ningal (Enumah), a palace of Amar-Su’en and further to the SE Ehursag, the palace of Ur-Nammu and Shulgi. The whole complex was divided from the town by a wall last rebuilt by Nebuchadrezzar II.

b. Royal cemetery. An outstanding discovery were the tombs of the rulers of the brilliant Early Dynastic III period c. 2500 near and below the mausoleum of kings Shulgi and Amar-Su’en. The finest equipped of the sixteen graves were those of Meskalamshar and his “queen” Pū-Abi (Shubad) and of the founder of the first dynasty Mesannipada and his son A’annipada who are known to be contemporary with the early kings of Mari. The ritual of burial included human sacrifice whereby from six to eighty retainers accompanied the deceased to the tomb where they too were killed, prob. by poisoning or suffocation. Objects of gold, silver, precious stones, wood, ivory and shell with lapis-lazuli mosaic inlay were found in abundance and testify to the wealth of this early time. They include chariots, sledges, standards, musical instruments, weapons and vessels, gaming-boards and much personal jewelry. An outlying cemetery at Diqdiqqeh yielded grave goods of a later period.

c. Flood level. In a deep sounding to virgin soil in Pit F (and at other check points) Woolley met at 4.50 m. above sea level a stratum of clean, water-laid sand more than 3 m. deep which he considered to have been laid in two subsequent stages and to date to the end of the ’Ubaid period c. 3500 b.c. He linked this with the Flood of Genesis and of the Babylonian Epic of Gilgamesh. Though some take this as proof of these events (see Flood (Genesis)) the archeological evidence here does not necessarily warrant this interpretation. The Flood layer seems to have been an accumulation of debris and is not strictly paralleled by the similar layers found at other sites which may be more closely related to the classical event, e.g. Kish and Shurrupak c. 2500 b.c. No flood level is known from Eridu, twelve m. to the SW.

d. Private houses. A quarter of the city occupied during the Isin-Larsa period was cleared to show the layout of thickly populated private houses. From many tablets discovered the activity of the market and seaport sections of the city can be reconstructed. Trade was carried on over a wide area by merchants including sea-borne traffic with India and Africa via the Persian Gulf from a canal-basin harbor.

3. History. Ur was a flourishing city in Sumer. times, dominating S Babylonia and sometimes farther afield, after a period of eclipse after the Gutian infiltration (2150-2070) which itself followed a time when Ur was overshadowed by the strong Sem. dynasty of III Agade to the N (2350-2150 b.c.). The Ur Dynasty founded by Ur-Nammu saw a revival of Sumer. prosperity and the extension of Ur’s influence once again to Syria and N Mesopotamia which continued during the reigns of his successors, Shulgi and Amar-Su’en. When the Amorites overran the S, Hammurabi (1792-1750 b.c.) controlled Ur for a time, but when it rebelled against his son it was sacked. Ur’s importance as a religious center insured that it was never abandoned for long, and later kings Kurigalzu II (1345-1324) and Marduk-nadin-aḫḫe (1098-1081) kept it in repair as did Nebuchadrezzar II and Nabonidus (550-539 b.c.). The latter rebuilt the ziggurat and other shrines before installing his daughter, Bel-shalṭi-Nannar as highpriestess in her own new palace. Cyrus paid reverent attention to the shrines but after the 4th cent. the city fell into decline with the diversion of the Euphrates River and the silting up of the canal system.

Bibliography C. L. Woolley, Excavations at Ur (1954); C. H. Gordon, “Abraham and the Merchants of Ura,” JNES XVII (1958), 28-31; H. W. F. Saggs, “Ur of the Chaldees,” Iraq XXII (1960), 200-209; M. E. L. Mallowan and D. J. Wiseman, Ur in Retrospect (1960); M. E. L. Mallowan, “The Development of Cities,” CAH rev. ed. I (1967), 29, 30; C. J. Gadd, “Ur,” Archaeology and Old Testament Study (1967), 87-101.
Ur of the Chaldees - Encyclopedia of The Bible - Bible Gateway


The camel issue
 
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redleghunter

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It seems that if there weren't a bazillion camel bones that revealed heavy loads they just...didn't exist. It is more likely that few did exist in Abrahams day. Too few to leave discoverable remains. It would be like finding no Rolls-Royce's in a junkyard and concluding that they didn't exist.
It is also plausible Abraham was a "top 1%er" when it came to his household and herds. Abraham came from the land of the Chaldeans and journeyed through Haran to Canaan. It just may be that Abraham was one of the first large clans of herdsmen who brought camels to Canaan.
 
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summerville

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Hi summerville,

Again, I believe that you're wrong. First of all, the account doesn't say that it's a glass mirror, so yes, it likely wasn't a 'modern glass mirror'. However, when I polish my black Chrysler Town and Country it's as much a mirror as any 'modern glass mirror'. You see, friend, the 'modern glass' description that you want to sneak into your understanding is exactly that...your personal interpretation of what 'mirror' means. A mirror is merely any reflective device. Here, for your edification, is an explanation of what mirrors may have been like in the Song of Songs days:

The earliest man made mirrors were from polished stone and mirrors made form black volcanic glass obsidian. ... It is believed that mirrors made of metal-backed glass this type of mirror was first produced in Lebanon in the first century AD and the Romans made crude mirrors from blown glass with lead backings.

According to ncbi' National Center for Biotechnology Institute, the use of reflective devices as mirrors dates back at least 8,000 years. Hmmmmmm?

While your evidence regarding camels does make the claim that they weren't domesticated until after the time of Abraham and their mention in the Scriptures, just for laughs here's something to think about showing what we may really know about the history of camels.

Despite their strong association with the Middle East and Africa, camels actually originated in North America some 45 million years ago. Between 3 and 5 million years ago, they crossed the Bering land bridge to Eurasia and eventually migrated south.

Apparently, according to this evidence, camels have been on the Eurasia continent for some 3-5 million years. Hmmmmm?

Who to believe? Who to believe? The Scriptures.....or some blog speaker on NPR.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

I said domesticated..

Shows that the invention of the North Arabian camel saddle in 300 B.C. provided Arab peoples with power, wealth and respect. Earliest saddle designs; North Arabian saddle's contribution to military effectiveness; Change in fighting styles; Arabs' involvement in regional economy;

How the Camel Got Its Saddle - EBSCO Information Services
connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/5198247/how-camel-got-saddle
There may be several grains of truth to the flood mythology of Noah and similar mythologies from elsewhere in the ancient Middle East. About 30 years ago it was discovered (" Noah's Flood" by Ryan and Pitman) that in antiquity the Black Sea was a freshwater lake with a water level at least 155 meters (510 feet) below its present level. It was cut off from the Mediterranean Sea by a silt plug in the Straits of Bosporus. This plug broke through about 7600 YBP due primarily to the dramatic rise in sea levels caused by the melting that ended the last ice age.. It created an immense waterfall whose sound was most likely audible for 100 or more miles. The Black Sea basin filled to its present level over a period of several weeks. It is estimated that the shore line advanced at the rate of a mile or more per day. For the people living around the lake it was a catastrophe of immense magnitude. It was likely the single most memorable flood in all of human history. The racial memory of this event probably inspired the Gilgamesh epic which in turn inspired the Noah narrative in the Bible. The evidence for this flood is scientifically solid. This prompted the National Geographic Society to finance an underwater search along the ancient shoreline for evidence of pre-flood human habitation. This search has been successful! A settlement has been found at a depth of 90 meters approximately 12 miles off the coast of Turkey. It is in a remarkable state of preservation because it is located in an area of the Black Sea where the water is completely devoid of oxygen with the effect that biological decomposition does not take place. This means that wooden artifacts such as tools, planks, housing beams etc are preserved intact. What is also quite amazing is that while there is solid scientific evidence for this local flood some 7600 YBP, there is no evidence at all for a worldwide flood just 4300 YBP. One would think that a more recent, more catastrophic event would have wiped out evidence of the earlier Black Sea event. There is also evidence for a similar event causing the flooding of the Gulf of Arabia about 10,000 YBP.

The Black Sea breech was a slow moving flood.. That is the waters rose very slowly so there was plenty of time to move family and livestock to higher ground. It corresponds with a rapid increase in agriculture so the experts assume the people who moved to higher ground to those skills with them.

Camels were used to haul cargo by the 10th century BC and the camel saddle came later sometime between 500 and 300 BC.

Archaeologists pinpoint the date when domesticated camels ...
phys.org/news/2014-02-archaeologists-date-domesticated-camels-israel.html
 
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summerville

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It is also plausible Abraham was a "top 1%er" when it came to his household and herds. Abraham came from the land of the Chaldeans and journeyed through Haran to Canaan. It just may be that Abraham was one of the first large clans of herdsmen who brought camels to Canaan.

Point being that there was NO Ur of the Chaldeans in the time of Abraham. There is an Urfa near Haran which was Canaanite.. Local legend puts Urfa as the original home of Terah and Abraham.
 
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ChetSinger

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Well said brother Ted. I think one of the huge obstacles for skeptics and the OT are the supernatural events or miracles. If one operates solely from a materialistic or naturalistic worldview, they must discount the miraculous in the OT and for that matter the NT. I said in another thread, why pick on the OT? The NT has Jesus dead three days and rising from the dead incorruptible and then glorified in His ascension. Those things just don't happen 'naturally.'
I agree completely.

I'm sometimes bemused by brethren who have no problem believing that Jesus is the Son of God, that he rose from the grave, and that we'll be given eternal life and glorious bodies on a new earth...yet have difficulty believing that God parted the Red Sea.

It seems to me to be quite a disconnect.
 
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summerville

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The scholarship behind "no domesticated camels" before 900BC is based on excavations in a copper mine in Sinai from around the time of Solomon.

What they found is that camels were used for mining at that site. What the scholars (who are not shy about their skeptical views on the Bible) concluded is that based on the mine excavation there could not possibly be any camels domesticated before that time. Considering there is ample scholarship refuting this claim as in the domestication of camels for dairy products and for use on long caravans and journeys.

Bible Wins Debate Carbon-Dated Camel Bones

5 Things You Need to Know About Camels and Biblical Accuracy | Transformed

Camels in the Bible

Are you talking about the copper mines at Timna?

Copper has been mined in the area since the 6th or 5th millennium BCE. Archaeological excavation indicates that the copper mines in Timna Valley were probably part of the Kingdom of Edom and worked by the Edomites, described as biblical foes of the Israelites, during the 10th century BCE, the period of biblical King Solomon.

timnax.jpg
 
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OldWiseGuy

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It is also plausible Abraham was a "top 1%er" when it came to his household and herds. Abraham came from the land of the Chaldeans and journeyed through Haran to Canaan. It just may be that Abraham was one of the first large clans of herdsmen who brought camels to Canaan.

True. There are modern developments in many nations to this very day that are not found in the undeveloped world.
 
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Perhaps if the biblical flood were studied scientifically. Science as well as Christians fail to look at crucial details in the flood story.


The Persian Gulf was a river in antiquity. The whole Arabian peninsula is slowly tipping Eastward. Between the tipping and the breech to the Arabian Sea the Gulf came into being.. Had nothing to do with Noah's flood.
 
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