The Demise of Evolution

[Bungle_Bear]

By large projects I meant going to the moon, building satellites for telecommunications, learning to fly, building bridges and skyscrapers.

You're saying that we couldn't make technologically advanced objects without writing? We need a lot more advances than just writing to achieve the projects you list. I have no idea what point you are trying to make, but it's far beyond a claim that you need writing for civilisation and "building structures".

 

[ZNP]

You're saying that we couldn't make technologically advanced objects without writing? We need a lot more advances than just writing to achieve the projects you list. I have no idea what point you are trying to make, but it's far beyond a claim that you need writing for civilisation and "building structures".

I am saying it is difficult, if not impossible for scientific advancement without being able to keep an accurate, precise and detailed record. Often discoveries are discounted at first only to be appreciated in greater detail by later generations or by researchers in other fields or other countries. Passing scientific advancement down by oral tradition would be extremely impractical and inefficient. Writing was a major advancement that completely distinguishes man from any other creature on this earth. No other creature can read or write books. Libraries are a cornerstone of civilization. Then once the printing press was invented it was like adding fertilizer to human ingenuity and significantly helped the renaissance in scientific advancement. Likewise the internet has also been a boon. Being able to translate the human genome and actually write into the DNA of different species is giving us power and ability no other creature could even dream of. This thread deals with evolution. My point is that if you are going to discuss the evolution of man you cannot ignore the evolution of reading and writing without being seriously wanting in the discussion.

 

[Speedwell]

I am saying it is difficult, if not impossible for scientific advancement without being able to keep an accurate, precise and detailed record. Often discoveries are discounted at first only to be appreciated in greater detail by later generations or by researchers in other fields or other countries. Passing scientific advancement down by oral tradition would be extremely impractical and inefficient. Writing was a major advancement that completely distinguishes man from any other creature on this earth. No other creature can read or write books. Libraries are a cornerstone of civilization. Then once the printing press was invented it was like adding fertilizer to human ingenuity and significantly helped the renaissance in scientific advancement. Likewise the internet has also been a boon. Being able to translate the human genome and actually write into the DNA of different species is giving us power and ability no other creature could even dream of. This thread deals with evolution. My point is that if you are going to discuss the evolution of man you cannot ignore the evolution of reading and writing without being seriously wanting in the discussion.

Technically what we are discussing is biological evolution by variation and natural selection. The "evolution" of language and writing is a different process altogether.

 

[ZNP]

Technically what we are discussing is biological evolution by variation and natural selection. The "evolution" of language and writing is a different process altogether.

I have already shown the connection. The human brain requires significantly more energy as a percentage of our total consumption than any other mammal. That is very significant from the standpoint of biological evolution. The reason it uses so much energy is that a large portion of our brain is used to process language, particularly reading and writing. If you are going to discuss any evolutionary advantage to our brain you have to consider processing language. Then from a natural selection viewpoint you have to ask -- what advantage was conferred. We paid a price for this ability, we lost our photographic memory, a skill that seems quite useful to hunter gatherers like apes. In exchange we got the ability to read when there weren't any books to read and the ability to write when no one else could read. How does evolution explain that as an advantage that made us fitter?

 

[Speedwell]

I have already shown the connection. The human brain requires significantly more energy as a percentage of our total consumption than any other mammal. That is very significant from the standpoint of biological evolution. The reason it uses so much energy is that a large portion of our brain is used to process language, particularly reading and writing. If you are going to discuss any evolutionary advantage to our brain you have to consider processing language. Then from a natural selection viewpoint you have to ask -- what advantage was conferred. We paid a price for this ability, we lost our photographic memory, a skill that seems quite useful to hunter gatherers like apes. In exchange we got the ability to read when there weren't any books to read and the ability to write when no one else could read. How does evolution explain that as an advantage that made us fitter?

You are going to have to provide citations for those claims, because there are contrary findings.

 

[ZNP]

You are going to have to provide citations for those claims, because there are contrary findings.

Chimps Outplay Humans in Brain Games



Why Does the Brain Need So Much Power?

This should be enough to jumpstart the discussion.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Chimps Outplay Humans in Brain Games



Why Does the Brain Need So Much Power?

This should be enough to jumpstart the discussion.

Could you quote the part where it says we use an inordinate amount of energy for reading and writing? I got to the part where it said they hoped to study human brains next, but couldn't see the results of that study anywhere.

 

[pitabread]

In exchange we got the ability to read when there weren't any books to read and the ability to write when no one else could read. How does evolution explain that as an advantage that made us fitter?

Traits like the ability to utilize language is a lot more complex than simply reading and writing; such traits are not strictly discrete. And the ability to recognize and use iconography is also not dependent specifically on books.

 

[Ophiolite]

Could you quote the part where it says we use an inordinate amount of energy for reading and writing?

Based on their responses in posts, I'm not sure that is true of all the members here.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

I am saying it is difficult, if not impossible for scientific advancement without being able to keep an accurate, precise and detailed record.

What you're doing is moving the goalposts. Your original assertion was that civilisation required writing. Do you actually have a fixed position you'd like to stick to, or will you shift position every time somebody points out a fault in your reasoning?

 

[ZNP]

Could you quote the part where it says we use an inordinate amount of energy for reading and writing? I got to the part where it said they hoped to study human brains next, but couldn't see the results of that study anywhere.

https://brainevo.sitehost.iu.edu/publications/LEB-lang-relevant-brain-evo.pdf



This does a very nice job of describing the human brain compared to primate brains and the extent to which the physiology has to have evolved.



This article says ““As an energy-consumer, the brain is the most expensive organ we carry around with us,” says Dr. Marcus Raichle, a distinguished professor of medicine at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. While the brain represents just 2% of a person’s total body weight, it accounts for 20% of the body’s energy use, Raichle’s research has found.”


Does Thinking Burn Calories? Here's What the Science Says


This study says that language is hard wired into our brain


Our brains are hardwired for language


This article describes the issue that scientists (and in this case archaelogists) are having with this question and the theories (one theory in this paper) have come up with.


How did reading and writing evolve?

 

[ZNP]

This is a discussion about evolution in the context of a Christian forum. I understand that to mean we are also looking at the Bible to see if there is anything we can learn relevant to this theory.

1. Man is made from the dust of the ground. We are not made from anything special, every creature when it dies becomes the dust of the ground.
2. Every creature was created after its kind, but man was made according to the image of God. I think this is only tangentially related to the topic of biologic evolution. I think this discussion would be better suited to a thread on how man came to be eusocial. I would have started this thread but can't figure out how to start a new thread.
3. God breathed into man and he became a living soul. I interpret living soul to refer to our culture, arts, dance, language, religion, food, etc. This is what appears to make us quite different from all other creatures.

Therefore if we are going to discuss human evolution as it relates to the Bible I see two major themes and one minor one. Is our body uniquely different from any other animal? No. That is the minor theme that everyone gets hung up on.

Second, how did we become eusocial, that is a huge one because without it we wouldn't be able to live in communities greater than 100 (all of our primate cousins are not eusocial), and it is the fact that we live in large communities of millions, have specialized jobs, allow other to take care of our kids, etc that allows us to really impact the earth in a way that no other species does. Dr. Wilson points out (without any dispute I might add) that the 18 eusocial species have by far the biggest impact on the planet, far more than millions of other species.

and third, how did we evolve to have a living soul?

These last two points are huge because in each one we are unique. Yes there are 18 eusocial species, but we are the only ones who have taught ourselves to be eusocial, it is not in our nature. We evolved from apes which are not eusocial. No other species evolved to be eusocial. And, second, no other species on this planet has become a living soul with art, music, language, history, science, technology, etc.

 

[Kylie]

https://brainevo.sitehost.iu.edu/publications/LEB-lang-relevant-brain-evo.pdf



This does a very nice job of describing the human brain compared to primate brains and the extent to which the physiology has to have evolved.

Unfortunately, the article does not mention read or writing at all, so I don't see how you think it supports your claim that our brain uses so much energy is because, "a large portion of our brain is used to process language, particularly reading and writing." It doesn't even mention the word "energy" except as part of the title in one of the cited sources.

This article says ““As an energy-consumer, the brain is the most expensive organ we carry around with us,” says Dr. Marcus Raichle, a distinguished professor of medicine at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. While the brain represents just 2% of a person’s total body weight, it accounts for 20% of the body’s energy use, Raichle’s research has found.”

Does Thinking Burn Calories? Here's What the Science Says

Yes, the brain is quite energy hungry, but this is not unique to Humans. Plenty of other animals have energy hungry brains as well, even those who have no language. Human brains aren't 'hungrier' than other animals' - Futurity

This study says that language is hard wired into our brain


Our brains are hardwired for language

This doesn't show that our brains energy requirements are increased due to this, however.

This article describes the issue that scientists (and in this case archaelogists) are having with this question and the theories (one theory in this paper) have come up with.


How did reading and writing evolve?

Again, this does not reference any increase in the brain's energy requirements due to language.

In short, your sources show that Humans have language and we have developed systems of written communication as well, and they also show that our brains require lots of energy compared to other organs. However, you have not provided any source that shows that the brain is energy-hungry BECAUSE of its ability to use language. Quite the opposite, I have provided a source which shows that brains without our adaptations to language are similarly energy-intensive.

 

[Lazarus Long]

Therefore if we are going to discuss human evolution as it relates to the Bible

It doesn't and you can't wedge the bible where it doesn't belong.

 

[Lazarus Long]

how did we evolve to have a living soul?

Can you show me one? The soul as an evolutionary process, this should be good.

 

[Job 33:6]

This is a discussion about evolution in the context of a Christian forum. I understand that to mean we are also looking at the Bible to see if there is anything we can learn relevant to this theory.

1. Man is made from the dust of the ground. We are not made from anything special, every creature when it dies becomes the dust of the ground.
2. Every creature was created after its kind, but man was made according to the image of God. I think this is only tangentially related to the topic of biologic evolution. I think this discussion would be better suited to a thread on how man came to be eusocial. I would have started this thread but can't figure out how to start a new thread.
3. God breathed into man and he became a living soul. I interpret living soul to refer to our culture, arts, dance, language, religion, food, etc. This is what appears to make us quite different from all other creatures.

Therefore if we are going to discuss human evolution as it relates to the Bible I see two major themes and one minor one. Is our body uniquely different from any other animal? No. That is the minor theme that everyone gets hung up on.

Second, how did we become eusocial, that is a huge one because without it we wouldn't be able to live in communities greater than 100 (all of our primate cousins are not eusocial), and it is the fact that we live in large communities of millions, have specialized jobs, allow other to take care of our kids, etc that allows us to really impact the earth in a way that no other species does. Dr. Wilson points out (without any dispute I might add) that the 18 eusocial species have by far the biggest impact on the planet, far more than millions of other species.

and third, how did we evolve to have a living soul?

These last two points are huge because in each one we are unique. Yes there are 18 eusocial species, but we are the only ones who have taught ourselves to be eusocial, it is not in our nature. We evolved from apes which are not eusocial. No other species evolved to be eusocial. And, second, no other species on this planet has become a living soul with art, music, language, history, science, technology, etc.

When you do figure out how to make a thread, just be prepared to be criticised on each detail. If you're in an atheist section, expect them to ask about the evolution of metaphysical things, and expect them to point out how mankind is surprisingly similar to other animals. And if you go to the Christian section, expect literalists to call you a heathen for defiling scripture.

 

[pitabread]

and third, how did we evolve to have a living soul?

What is a "living soul"? How do you define it? Quantify it? Measure it?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

https://brainevo.sitehost.iu.edu/publications/LEB-lang-relevant-brain-evo.pdf



This does a very nice job of describing the human brain compared to primate brains and the extent to which the physiology has to have evolved.



This article says ““As an energy-consumer, the brain is the most expensive organ we carry around with us,” says Dr. Marcus Raichle, a distinguished professor of medicine at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. While the brain represents just 2% of a person’s total body weight, it accounts for 20% of the body’s energy use, Raichle’s research has found.”


Does Thinking Burn Calories? Here's What the Science Says


This study says that language is hard wired into our brain


Our brains are hardwired for language


This article describes the issue that scientists (and in this case archaelogists) are having with this question and the theories (one theory in this paper) have come up with.


How did reading and writing evolve?

Nothing to see here. Basically you have nothing beyond your assertion that reading and writing consume huge amounts of energy additional to any other language processing. You need to be aware that no matter how often you repeat an assertion, it still doesn't make it true.

 

[Kylie]

and third, how did we evolve to have a living soul?

What exactly is a "living soul"? How can you show that I have one, yet, a mouse does not have one?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

And, second, no other species on this planet has become a living soul with art, music, language, history, science, technology, etc.

Really? Please define what you mean for each of those supposedly unique characteristics. Bower birds certainly appear to use art in their displays, many song birds could be said to use music, others have already pointed out that language is not unique to humans, everything that exists has history and several animals use tools (technology). That only leaves science, and without knowing what you mean by that I can't say that it is or is not a unique trait.