The hypocrisy of being "pro-life"

[chevyontheriver]

We are obviously animals. The reason we know sin is humans ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Some animals act with more dignity than many humans do. We are more than mere animals, and we should act like it. We are made in the image of God. One of the crazy ways we are in that image is in our ability to create. We are co-creators with God of new human beings. That is one of the reasons abortion is so terrible. We co-create new humans, partnering with God in doing so, and then we kill them discarding them as worthless. It is not merely a brutality (being like the brutes, who usually aren't even that heartless) but also a thumbing one's nose at God.

 

[GodLovesCats]

You make it looks liek people bargain with God to make babies, which obviously does not apply to victims of sex crimes. Those girls and women are vulnerable to denying the4 unwanted embryos have any worth. A big issue I have with the pro-life crowd is they seem to have no awareness or understanding of how the mother's emotions get so messed up. Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) can easily cause rape victims to think nothing is more important than getting rid of the embryo she tried to avoid conceiving. That is all I am thinking about when I say the mom decides if the baby has moral worth to herself.

 

[chevyontheriver]

You make it looks liek people bargain with God to make babies,

Bargain? Not at all. But God provides a soul for every baby conceived. It's a partnership that says that babies are a good thing.

... which obviously does not apply to victims of sex crimes.

Do babies resulting from rape have souls? Or are they some sort of soulless creatures with black (or maybe red) eyes?

Those girls and women are vulnerable to denying the4 unwanted embryos have any worth. A big issue I have with the pro-life crowd is they seem to have no awareness or understanding of how the mother's emotions get so messed up. Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) can easily cause rape victims to think nothing is more important than getting rid of the embryo she tried to avoid conceiving. That is all I am thinking about when I say the mom decides if the baby has moral worth to herself.

Violence begets violence. Is that a good thing? Should a violated person lash out and violate another person? Does that fix a thing? Does encouraging them to cure their anguish by killing an innocent helpless human being make them all better? What happened in your life?

What of all of the babies aborted that are not the result of rape? What collateral damage is there in that?

 

[GodLovesCats]

The common sense solution for us as Christians would be helping them get counseling every week instead of just being told, "Killing a fetus is murder. It is more important than you are." I don't trust anyone to be nice about it and refrain from saying such things except professional psychologists who are trained to not be judgmental.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The common sense solution for us as Christians would be helping them get counseling every week instead of just being told, "Killing a fetus is murder. It is more important than you are." I don't trust anyone to be nice about it and refrain from saying such things except professional psychologists who are trained to not be judgmental.

First, nobody I know says an unborn baby is 'more important' than the mother. Both have equal moral value. One is the 'adult' and should naturally be the protector of the other. An abortion is the result of devaluing the living human being in her mother's womb, saying the baby has no moral value at all so killing it is no big deal. It's just a blob of tissue. Big people with power are more important than they are. But when we devalue those who are powerless, the old, the disabled, the sick, children, unborn children, we do what you complain about above. We say other people, powerful people, are more important, that those inconvenient lives have no moral value. You do exactly what you complain about, devaluing certain people. Unwanted people. As Randy Newman says, short people got no reason to live.

Do you realize that in 320 posts in this thread nobody yet has called you a hypocrite, yet your initial post started out with calling pro-life people hypocrites? You started out this whole thread trying to devalue people who you disagree with by calling us hypocrites.

And there are many committed Christians who counsel, and provide accurate medical information, and provide financial assistance, and prayers, and friendship, and all manner of encouragement to women who are pregnant without expecting to be.

 

[coffee4u]

Well, we are. But we are human animals. And particularly created by God to be in His image. Every one of us. Which is way more than just being animals.

Can you show me scripture that says we are animals?

 

[GodLovesCats]

Can you show me Scripture that says we are animals?

The Bible is not a science book. It was written by and for people who did not consider humans animals for cultural and psychological reasons. Anyone who has taken biology in school knows humans are mammals.

 

[JacksBratt]

Humans are animals. They belong to the animal kingdom. That is a biological fact.

Adam and Eve were made in God's image, but I never read anywhere a single verse in Genesis translates to include all humans who ever lived.

Sorry, "Cats"....But that is just a really really sad post.

It's amazing how a few posts can tell you so much about the way someone thinks.

If God made Adam and Eve in His image.. And... everyone one of us came from them... How can it not be that we ALL were made in His image?

All humans are in the image of God and Christ died for the whole world. If you read John 3:16 it is very apparent..

Combine that with these:

2 Corinthians 5:15 King James Version (KJV)

15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


John 1:29 King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


1 John 2:2 King James Version (KJV)

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

[JacksBratt]

The Bible is not a science book. It was written by and for people who did not consider humans animals for cultural and psychological reasons. Anyone who has taken biology in school knows humans are mammals.

I'm rather surprised to hear this statement from a Christian.. "The Bible is not a science book."
as an excuse to counter the truth it holds.

The bible is not a medical text book, a geography text book, a history text book, a financial text book, a psychology text book... it's none of these..But it holds truth about all of them.

The Bible holds the revelation of a creator, to His creation. It holds truth and wisdom in many areas. It gives information of the past and what took place.

No, it is not used to teach science.. but it holds scientific truths that, in the end, will be revealed to be as true as every other word contained in it's pages.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The Bible is not a science book. It was written by and for people who did not consider humans animals for cultural and psychological reasons. Anyone who has taken biology in school knows humans are mammals.

So your a secular humanist then? Because that's the belief set your here teaching; moral value is whatever people say it is according to their culture; the Bible was a book written by a primitive people, humans are animals etc.

See, Christians believe that the Bible is the Word of God given by inspiration of God to a particular people; people God chose as His own people to bring them into covenant with Him and bear and bring forth into the world God's own Son who is the Light of God to the whole world, bringing salvation and light to all of mankind who believe in Him in truth. Thereby the Son brings all who are saved into covenant with the God of the heavens and the earth..

I don't believe the Bible is a book of science either, but that belief in no way diminishes either humans or God.. The Bible is still the very Word of God, given by inspiration to men of God and man is still created by God in His image and for His glory..

That's no animal... Mankinds value stems from the God who created them, an objective source (thereby we can base law on it), not man, a subjective source.

 

[GodLovesCats]

I am a Christian. I believe God creates every zygote. So no, I am not a "secular humanist."

The Bible was not written by primitive people. I never suggested such a thing.

 

[tturt]

Sure there are additional Scriptures but here's a few that shows God's plan

Yahweh determines the time and place of our births:
-“And he made from one man every race of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted epochs and the fixed boundaries of the places where they would live;” (Acts 17:26)

He formed us:
-“For You formed my innermost parts; You knit me [together] in my mother’s womb” Psa 139:13
-“Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?” Mal 2;10

He gives us life each day:
-“This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it.” (Psa 118:24)
-“The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.” Job 33:4
"I will put ligaments on you, place muscles on you, and cover you with skin. I will put breath in you, and you will live. Then you will know that I am Yahweh." Eze 37:6

He has a plan for each one:
-“For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.” Jer 29:11
-“And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, for those who are called according to his purpose,” Rom 8:28
-“who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time eternal,” II Tim 1:9
-“I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.” Psa 32:8
-“And the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.” Isa 58:11

 

[Hazelelponi]

I am a Christian. I believe God creates every zygote. So no, I am not a "secular humanist."

The Bible was not written by primitive people. I never suggested such a thing.

You said the Bible was written by men for cultural and psychological purposes. It's not. It's God's very word given by God to godly men for people..

If you believe we are God's own creation that God created in His own Image why on earth are you here on a Christian forum saying that mankind can kill that Image bearing life if she determines that Image bearing life holds no subjective moral value to her personally when it was God whom created that child and that child holds objective moral value to Him...?

Please give me Biblical reasoning that says mankind has the right to sit in God's judgement seat and kill any it desires to kill for any reason mankind might decide appropriate. .

 

[chevyontheriver]

Can you show me scripture that says we are animals?

No. I can't. I could show you considerable Biology that says we are animals. The Scripture, which you know yourself, describes how we are made in the image of God. That's true. We agree. But we are also animals, mammals in fact, primates even. And this new coronavirus is something from other animals and we can get it because we are related to the normal host of that virus. We are both. We are not merely animals. We are animals who are so much more, by the hand of God.

This is a tangent, a rabbit hole, and I don't really want to sidetrack the whole thread because of it. If you want to sidetrack the thread, I will not respond to you further.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I am a Christian. I believe God creates every zygote.

How, then, are only some zygotes worthy of life? How are some of no moral value if their mothers don't approve of what God has done in creating them?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Over and over again so-called "pro-lifers" say two things that butt against each other:

1. Contraception is a form of abortion, especially the morning after pills (Plan B).
   
2. There is no reason to have an abortion because women can use contraception.

Uh, what? People want women to prevent unwanted pregnancies but not use the devices which were invented solely for that purpose. You can't have it both ways. If you do not want anybody to use contraception, you must love abortions of unwanted embryos and fetuses because using contraceptive pills and devices prevents them.

I also have seen "pro-lifers" speak out against mandatory sex education, which is the only way to make sure all girls and boys learn about contraception and abstinence. Again, if you want all girls and women to avoid having unwanted pregnancies, you must support this requirement for health teachers in every public and private school.

Reducing abortions will not happen by making them illegal. All that would do is make most abortions very dangerous, even life-threatening. It will not reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. If you want the number of abortions to be nearly zero you must support everything that would effectively reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies because desperate women will seek untrained people to remove fetuses out of their bodies.

So what do you want, fewer unwanted pregnancies or a lot of sick women occupying jail cells?

I’m a pro life Christian but I don’t see a problem with using contraceptives to prevent pregnancy.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I’m a pro life Christian but I don’t see a problem with using contraceptives to prevent pregnancy.

And I am a Christian but I do see a problem with contraception. Not to derail the thread though.

First, some contraception does indeed act as an abortifacient. Not all but some. And actually by design in that they can interfere with the implantation of the conceived baby. Or can interfere with the placenta and cause an implanted embryo to be sloughed off. Most of us would call either of those an abortion.

But that's not the whole of it. My tradition has seen the use of contraception to be an evil in and of itself. This is the position of pope John Paul II explained with his 'Theology of the Body'. It is the position of pope Paul VI in 'Humanae Vitae'. But it is the long and consistent position of Catholics and even historic Protestants. Before 1930 every brand of Protestant would have agreed. In fact the first crack in that was when in the 1930 Lambeth Conference the Anglicans opened a tiny crack for special cases. Not long afterwards every manner of Protestant drained down that little crack to the point where few remember that it was not that long ago in historical terms that all Protestants agreed with Catholic teaching on the immorality of contraception.

The original post complained about the hypocrisy of pro-life Christians. But most of us are not hypocrites at all. Some of us think all contraception is OK, and thus do not qualify as hypocrites under the OP standard. Others of us reject all contraception, and thus do not qualify as hypocrites under the OP standard. And even those who reject some contraceptives are not hypocrites because they allow for other kinds of contraception.

In fact the whole hypocrites charge is misbegotten. Pro-life people seek to protect innocent human beings as best they know how. Those of us who oppose abortion but do not promote any or all contraceptives are made out to be some kind of evil people, so evil as to be hypocrites. But we're not. As the whole of over 300 posts demonstrate. We are people who value all human life as having the same moral worth. And that means not killing the inconvenient and unwanted.

 

[Hazelelponi]

And I am a Christian but I do see a problem with contraception. Not to derail the thread though.

First, some contraception does indeed act as an abortifacient. Not all but some. And actually by design in that they can interfere with the implantation of the conceived baby. Or can interfere with the placenta and cause an implanted embryo to be sloughed off. Most of us would call either of those an abortion.

But that's not the whole of it. My tradition has seen the use of contraception to be an evil in and of itself. This is the position of pope John Paul II explained with his 'Theology of the Body'. It is the position of pope Paul VI in 'Humanae Vitae'. But it is the long and consistent position of Catholics and even historic Protestants. Before 1930 every brand of Protestant would have agreed. In fact the first crack in that was when in the 1930 Lambeth Conference the Anglicans opened a tiny crack for special cases. Not long afterwards every manner of Protestant drained down that little crack to the point where few remember that it was not that long ago in historical terms that all Protestants agreed with Catholic teaching on the immorality of contraception.

The original post complained about the hypocrisy of pro-life Christians. But most of us are not hypocrites at all. Some of us think all contraception is OK, and thus do not qualify as hypocrites under the OP standard. Others of us reject all contraception, and thus do not qualify as hypocrites under the OP standard. And even those who reject some contraceptives are not hypocrites because they allow for other kinds of contraception.

In fact the whole hypocrites charge is misbegotten. Pro-life people seek to protect innocent human beings as best they know how. Those of us who oppose abortion but do not promote any or all contraceptives are made out to be some kind of evil people, so evil as to be hypocrites. But we're not. As the whole of over 300 posts demonstrate. We are people who value all human life as having the same moral worth. And that means not killing the inconvenient and unwanted.

I do have to say you've - and this thread as a whole - has taught me a lot about contraceptives that I didnt know, and in some cases it's changed my mind about some of what I've believed concerning them.

I know much of what passes for modern contraception didn't even exist when I was young, so this field of inquiry today is basically all new for me.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I do have to say you've - and this thread as a whole - has taught me a lot about contraceptives that I didnt know, and in some cases it's changed my mind about some of what I've believed concerning them.

I know much of what passes for modern contraception didn't even exist when I was young, so this field of inquiry today is basically all new for me.

I encourage you to delve in to the Theology of the Body. There is a lot of richness in that which could do us all well. I keep finding out new things in that which seem like they should have been obvious all along. We have been raised in a contraceptive culture. And it has actually messed up our thinking. Walking back from that takes some time and effort.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I encourage you to delve in to the Theology of the Body. There is a lot of richness in that which could do us all well. I keep finding out new things in that which seem like they should have been obvious all along. We have been raised in a contraceptive culture. And it has actually messed up our thinking. Walking back from that takes some time and effort.

I'll look into that.. thank you for the suggestion..