Should Christians support Rebuilding of Jerusalem Third Temple.

[Copperhead]

What would be the purpose of this restored national Israel, on this present earth, with Christ present and ruling during the 1000 years?

Well, for one, the Abrahamic Covenant has yet to be fulfilled. It is an unconditional covenant. Confirmed to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Israel couldn't break that covenant if they wanted to.

Likewise, the Davidic covenant has yet to be fulfilled. Same thing. Israel couldn't break that covenant if they wanted to. It was made with David by the Lord. Even Gabriel reaffirmed that covenant to Mary when he appeared to her to let her know she would give birth to the Messiah.

So if these covenants have yet to be fulfilled, and they are both unconditional covenants that are dependent on the trustworthiness of the Lord, then that is the insurance that the promises that the Lord has made to those who place their trust in Him is trustworthy.

That is the purpose to a restored Israel complete with all the land that was promised to Abraham (which Israel has never had at any point before), with Messiah ruling in the authority of David over Israel as its king.

Even the disciples understood this when then asked in Acts 1 if that time the kingdom would be restored to Israel. Yeshua did not dismiss the idea, He just told them that it wasn't their concern and it was up to the Father when that would happen. Confirming that the covenants are still valid.

 

[JLHargus]

Copperhead: He will be ruling over a restored national Israel per the Davidic Covenant which was affirmed in Gabriel's comments to Mary.

JL: Yes, the covenant with David was affirmed in Gabriel’s comments. And fulfilled in the new covenant through Mary’s Son Jesus, the Son of David and king of the regenerated=restored Israel of God. Where there is neither Jew nor Gentile but one body, the Israel of God. All being regenerated, born again by water and of the Spirit, a new creature raised with Christ in baptism.

[Hb8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:] k

There is no evidence in Luke, or any scripture, affirming a restored national Israel with Jesus physically present on this earth or restored earth apart from the restored new earth. He will be present in the new regenerated=restored earth sitting on the throne of David in the city of God, Heavenly Jerusalem on mount Zion after judgment and separation of sheep and goats.

[Rv21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.] k

[Lk22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; 30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.] k

[Lk1:30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.] k

Christ the Son of David has been on the throne of David since He ascended into heaven. Therefore, Mary has been Gebirah=Queen Mother since she entered the throne room=heaven of Her Son, the Son of David and king of the regenerated=restored Davidic kingdom of the Israel of God. We also see the ark of the NT in heaven.
A testimony about praying to Mary Queen Mother

A testimony about praying to Mary Ark of Covenant

Christ also appointed ministers as overseers of the kingdom. The Chief Minister he gave the keys of the kingdom, Mt16:13-19. Peter is Prime Minister as he is given the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. Christ the king, holds the keys by right and delegates his authority with those keys to his First Minister as was done in the Davidic Kingdom. King Hezekiah removed his Prime Minister Shebna and gave the keys to Eliakim. [2Kgs16:20 And Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David: and Hezekiah his son reigned in his stead].

[Isa 22:15 Thus saith the Lord God of hosts, Go, get thee unto this treasurer, even unto Shebna, which is over the house, and say, 16-18 …. 19 And I will drive thee from thy station, and from thy state shall he pull thee down. 20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah: 21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.]

 

[Copperhead]

[Rms2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.] k

Let's look at this another way. The scripture also says that in Messiah there is neither male or female. So if the application you are trying to assert is true, then there is no need for male and female bathrooms at the local church.

Paul is speaking specifically to Jews in that context starting in Romans 2:17. He is stating correctly that those of Israel are not true Jews only outwardly but also inwardly. The context has nothing to do with gentile believers in the Body. It is speaking of the true remnant of Israel. You cannot legitimately apply that passage to mean everyone in the body. Paul goes to great lengths in chapters 9, 10, and 11 of the same book showing that the Lord is not done with Israel. It has unique destiny and purpose to fulfill yet.

 

[Copperhead]

There is no evidence in Luke, or any scripture, affirming a restored national Israel with Jesus physically present on this earth or restored earth apart from the restored new earth.

Luke 1:32-33 (NKJV) He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."

That is the Davidic Covenant of....

2 Samuel 7:12-16 (NKJV) "When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever."

And the land that was promised to Abraham....

Genesis 15:18 (NKJV) On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
"To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates—

That unconditional covenant has never been fulfilled. So if it has never been fulfilled, and you suggest there is no reason for a restored Israel to the land with Messiah ruling over it, then that means the Lord is a liar and His promises to the believer are no more assured either.

The promise of these covenants being fulfilled is the insurance policy that the promises to the those who trust in Messiah will also be fulfilled.

 

[JLHargus]

Original post JL: [Rms2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.]

Copperhead: Let's look at this another way. The scripture also says that in Messiah there is neither male or female. So if the application you are trying to assert is true, then there is no need for male and female bathrooms at the local church.

JL: In the United States there is no distinction for citizenship between men or woman, Jew or Gentle, all are one people called Americans. And at present at least bathrooms are separate.

Paul is speaking of those in Christ, Christians through circumcision of the heart. All, whether Jew or Gentile, circumcised of the heart are baptized into the one body of Christ. All circumcised of the heart form the one body of Christ, spiritual Israel. And heirs without distinction no matter if man or woman, Jew or Gentile. There is no discrimination with Christ. [Rms2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.]

 

[JLHargus]

Copperhead: Paul is speaking specifically to Jews in that context starting in Romans 2:17. He is stating correctly that those of Israel are not true Jews only outwardly but also inwardly.

JL: Paul is saying, a true Jew is one circumcised of the heart=inwardly, being born again by water and of the Spirit Jn3:5. A natural Jew is outwardly uncircumcised of the heart, not saved as is an uncircumcised, of the heart, Gentile. I will let Rms2:28-29 speak for itself and others judge for themselves.

[Rms2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.] k

[Col2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.] k

[Rms12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.] k

[Gal3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.] k

[Eph2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.] k

[Rms11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2-4 …. 5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6-8 …. 9 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 10-19 …. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 …. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?] k

[Gal3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.] k

There is only one good olive tree and kingdom by which humanity, without distinction, whether Jew or Gentile, male or female must belong to be saved. And they are saved by circumcision of the heart= baptism. 2

 

[JLHargus]

Original post JL: There is no evidence in Luke, or any scripture, affirming a restored national Israel with Jesus physically present on this earth or restored earth apart from the restored new earth.

Copperhead: Paul goes to great lengths in chapters 9, 10, and 11 of the same book showing that the Lord is not done with Israel. It has unique destiny and purpose to fulfill yet.

JL: I agree, God is not done with natural Israel.

Rms11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:] k

If you have evidence from chapters 9-11 for a restored national Israel with Jesus physically present and ruling on this present earth, I’m open to read it.

Copperhead: Luke 1:32-33 (NKJV) He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end."

That is the Davidic Covenant of....

JL: It certainly is, King Jesus the Son of David is on the throne of David in Heavenly Jerusalem, ruling over the ongoing regeneration of the kingdom, the spiritual Israel of God. At the end of the 1000 year period and the final battle with evil. He will return in glory to judge the living and the dead. Then Heavenly Jerusalem=Church shall come down from heaven on the new earth and King Jesus=God will dwell with His people in the regenerated=restored Israel of God on the regenerated new earth and universe and of His kingdom there will be no end.

Copperhead: 2 Samuel 7:12-16 (NKJV) "When your days are fulfilled and you rest with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who will come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his Father, and he shall be My son. If he commits iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men and with the blows of the sons of men. 15 But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 And your house and your kingdom shall be established forever before you. Your throne shall be established forever."

JL: Yes, king Solomon the son of David did build a house=Temple for God. King Jesus the Son of David is now building a house=Temple for God with living stones, from which living waters flow. An habitation of God where both Jew and Gentile are fellowcitizens and of the one household of God.

[Eph2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.] k

[Gal3: 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20-27 …. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.] k

 

[JLHargus]

Copperhead: And the land that was promised to Abraham....
Genesis 15:18 (NKJV) On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:
"To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— That unconditional covenant has never been fulfilled.

So if it has never been fulfilled, and you suggest there is no reason for a restored Israel to the land with Messiah ruling over it, then that means the Lord is a liar and His promises to the believer are no more assured either.

JL: I don’t recall ever suggesting there is no reason for a restored Israel. Israel is being restored=

regenerated now and will continue till Christ returns in glory and heavenly Jerusalem=Church comes down from heaven. I did say, “There is no evidence in Luke, or any scripture, affirming a restored national Israel with Jesus physically present on the earth or restored earth apart from the restored new earth”. I have yet to see a Scripture posted by anyone showing Christ returning after the tribulation ruling for a 1000 years.

Does Christ return several times, will he come in his glory ruling for a 1000 years with His glorified body? Can you post a couple scriptures you view as support of His physical return to earth and ruling, a 1000 years, after the tribulation?

Copperhead: The promise of these covenants being fulfilled is the insurance policy that the promises to those who trust in Messiah will also be fulfilled.

JL: [Gn15:18 In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:]

If not already fulfilled in king David and king Solomon’s empire, the land boundaries could be fulfilled any time. My view it will be fulfilled when Christ returns in glory and Heavenly Jerusalem=Church comes down on the new earth. According to scripture Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not seeking an earthly country but a heavenly city whose builder and maker is God.

[Hb11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.11-12 ….13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.] k

[1Cor15:49 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 8 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. k

[Phillipians3:20 But our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 Who will reform the body of our lowness, made like to the body of his glory, according to the operation whereby also he is able to subdue all things unto himself.] k
All scripture KJV Biblegateway

 

[Copperhead]

JL: It certainly is, King Jesus the Son of David is on the throne of David in Heavenly Jerusalem, ruling over the ongoing regeneration of the kingdom, the spiritual Israel of God.

I would disagree. The rebellion at the end of the 1000 years is also discussed in Psalms 2. And it says specifically that Messiah is ruling from Zion. That would be where David's throne was and where the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant is realized. Samuel was pretty clear.

 

[Copperhead]

JL: Paul is saying, a true Jew is one circumcised of the heart=inwardly, being born again by water and of the Spirit Jn3:5. A natural Jew is outwardly uncircumcised of the heart, not saved as is an uncircumcised, of the heart, Gentile. I will let Rms2:28-29 speak for itself and others judge for themselves.

It is true that the only true Jew is one who is circumcised of the heart, born again. But they have to be of Jacob/Israel to begin with to then be "true" Jacob/Israel.

The context in Romans 2:17 onward is physical Jacob/Israel and regarding only those who are regenerated as being the true Jacob/Israel. it has nothing to do with anyone else. And the same Paul several chapters later is very specific that even to unbelieving Jacob/Israel, the gifts and calling to God is irrevocable. It is unconditional and Jacob/Israel as a corporate body could not abrogate that covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob if they wanted to. And they have certainly tried the patience of God in that regard. But it is not their faithfulness that maintains the covenant, it is the Lord's faithfulness that preserves the covenant. It is His name on the line.

Romans 2:17 onward is directed specifically at Paul's brethren, Israelites. doesn't say bumkus about gentiles who have been redeemed and born again now constitute the true Israel. Gentiles are grafted into the cultivated olive tree of Israel, but they are not the natural branches. For one to be the "true" Israel, they would have to be part of Israel, the natural branches, to begin with. They only become "true" when they take on the faith of Abraham and place their trust in their promised Messiah. No different than when the Lord told Elijah that their was remnant that He had in reserve in 1 Kings.

 

[Copperhead]

regenerated now and will continue till Christ returns in glory and heavenly Jerusalem=Church comes down from heaven. I did say, “There is no evidence in Luke, or any scripture, affirming a restored national Israel with Jesus physically present on the earth or restored earth apart from the restored new earth”. I have yet to see a Scripture posted by anyone showing Christ returning after the tribulation ruling for a 1000 years.

Well, every prophet but 2 in the OT, including David, makes reference to a restored Israel in the Land and that Messiah would be ruling from Zion.

And Gabriel is very specific that the reference he is making to Mary regarding the Messiah will be given David's throne. Not something symbolically, figuratively, and other worldly, but ruling from Zion just as Samuel wrote. And David, quoting the Lord in Psalms 2:6, says that when the nations rebel and desire to throw off the rule of Messiah, He is ruling from Zion on that throne. Not from some "heavenly" Jerusalem.

 

[JLHargus]

It is true that the only true Jew is one who is circumcised of the heart, born again. But they have to be of Jacob/Israel to begin with to then be "true" Jacob/Israel.

The context in Romans 2:17 onward is physical Jacob/Israel and regarding only those who are regenerated as being the true Jacob/Israel. it has nothing to do with anyone else. And the same Paul several chapters later is very specific that even to unbelieving Jacob/Israel, the gifts and calling to God is irrevocable. It is unconditional and Jacob/Israel as a corporate body could not abrogate that covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob if they wanted to. And they have certainly tried the patience of God in that regard. But it is not their faithfulness that maintains the covenant, it is the Lord's faithfulness that preserves the covenant. It is His name on the line.

Romans 2:17 onward is directed specifically at Paul's brethren, Israelites. doesn't say bumkus about gentiles who have been redeemed and born again now constitute the true Israel. Gentiles are grafted into the cultivated olive tree of Israel, but they are not the natural branches. For one to be the "true" Israel, they would have to be part of Israel, the natural branches, to begin with. They only become "true" when they take on the faith of Abraham and place their trust in their promised Messiah. No different than when the Lord told Elijah that their was remnant that He had in reserve in 1 Kings.

JL: Paul maybe talking about natural Jews who are not Abrahams heirs but he is addressing Christians those circumcised of the heart and heirs of Abraham.

 

[JLHargus]

Original post JL: It certainly is, King Jesus the Son of David is on the throne of David in Heavenly Jerusalem, ruling over the ongoing regeneration of the kingdom, the spiritual Israel of God.

Copperhead: I would disagree. The rebellion at the end of the 1000 years is also discussed in Psalms 2. And it says specifically that Messiah is ruling from Zion.

JL: [Hb12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. 27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: 29 For our God is a consuming fire.]

[Jer23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?

[Mt28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.]

King Jesus the Son of David is on His throne ruling. He has been given all power in heaven and in earth and will be with His Body=Church on earth ruling till the end.

 

[HARK!]

Rabbi Levi Yitzchok Greenwald,Rebbe of Tzelim, Hungary (1893-1980)

רבי לוי יצחק גרינוואלד זצ"ל אב"ד צעהלים

Once a reporter from a Zionist newspaper came and spoke to him and asked him, “What do you say about the Jewish state?” The rabbi replied, “It is not Jewish and it is not a state. It is a misfortune upon the head of the Jewish people.”

Rabbi Dovid Smith, rabbiin London,England and chief rabbi of Lithuania (c. 1989)

רבי דוד סמיט זצ"ל ר"מ בלאנדאן ורב הראשי בווילנא

In truth, the very establishment of the state constitutes denial of all parts of the Torah, because the foundation of our faith is that we have to remain in exile until G-d brings us the redemption, and it must be a redemption without human effort. (Derech Chaim)


The world should know that the massacre in Hebron was not only against Arabs. I myself am a victim of this very same party. I am the chief rabbi of Vilnius, and because I tried to make peace between Jews and non-Jews… This very same party came over to Vilnius, they wanted to stir up trouble, and because I walked out amongst a very inflammatory speech, they came in on Saturday when we were praying, the exact example that happened in Hebron. They came into my syngagoue! These were Israelis, they had no right in my synagogue. They came in by force, a hundred of them, they wanted to kill me! I was saved by miracles. The whole world should know that we are not against Arabs, on the contrary, in our faith, in our Torah, we have to love respect every single person in the world. And these people are against everybody, they wanted to even kill Jews! As myself the Chief Rabbi of Lithuania they wanted to assassinate me! I was saved by miracles. (Speech on March 4, 1994)

Rabbi Moshe Ber Beck, rabbi in Monsey, USA

רבי משה דוב בעק שליט"א רב דקהל בית יהודי ,מאנסי ניו יארק

We are religious Jews who cling to the old, original Jewish faith and Torah. Our purpose in appearing here today is to make known to the world something that not everyone knows: that the authentic Jewish people is not identical with the Zionist idea and the Zionist state, but rather they are antithetical, like day and night.

G-d sent the Jewish people into exile due to their sins. Through His true prophets, He warned us not to organize ourselves and arise on our own from exile. G-d alone, without help from any creature and without any organization, will redeem us. The Jewish people‟s entire life and existence is faith and Torah. They have been waiting in exile for almost two thousand years, with loyalty to the warnings and promises of G-d.

About 150 years ago, non-believing individuals arose who incorrectly understood the essence of the Jewish people. They saw the Jewish people as fundamentally not spiritual but material, and they proposed a modern solution to the “problem of exile”. Mocking the old tradition of faith and hope, they introduced the concept of self-organization, which the Torah forbids. It is from this concept that the Zionist state was born.

One sin leads to another: they unjustly pulled out the ground from under the feet of the Palestinian people,

robbed them of their houses and property, and expelled them cruelly and murderously. This would have been a massive criminal act for an individual Jew – all the more so for a large group of Jews, both according to Torah law and international law.

We are here to proclaim that the original Jewish people has no connection to the Zionist idea, their state or their actions.

 

[Copperhead]

JL: Paul maybe talking about natural Jews who are not Abrahams heirs but he is addressing Christians those circumcised of the heart and heirs of Abraham.

And that would be wrong.

From Romans 2:17 to the end of the chapter, Paul is addressing Jews specifically. And that is the context where Paul talks about circumcision of the heart. He is not talking to Christians in general. In Chapter 2 he had previously been talking to Gentiles. Later in the same chapter he is talking to Jews. He is speaking specifically to unbelievers of both groups in chapter 2.

Romans 2:17-29 (NASB) But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, 21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

 

[parousia70]

Well, for one, the Abrahamic Covenant has yet to be fulfilled. It is an unconditional covenant. Confirmed to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Israel couldn't break that covenant if they wanted to.

God Already FULFILLED that Covenant in and through FAITHFUL Israel.
They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah.

Likewise, the Davidic covenant has yet to be fulfilled.

Rather, Scripture testifies Christ indeed fulfilled the Davidic Covenant. Christ fulfilled David's office as King (Luke 1:68-69; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Timothy 1:17; Mark 11:10; ) and restored the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-17) so that all the gentile nations could join in to the true worship of Jehovah.
This is PLAINLY Fulfilled today.
We are not still waiting for this to be a present reality.

 

[JLHargus]

Original post JL Paul maybe talking about natural Jews who are not Abrahams heirs, but he is addressing Christians those circumcised of the heart and heirs of Abraham.

Copperhead: And that would be wrong.
From Romans 2:17 to the end of the chapter, Paul is addressing Jews specifically. And that is the context where Paul talks about circumcision of the heart. He is not talking to Christians in general. In Chapter 2 he had previously been talking to Gentiles. Later in the same chapter he is talking to Jews. He is speaking specifically to unbelievers of both groups in chapter 2.
Romans 2:17-29 (NASB) But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18 and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, 21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God

JL: [Rms1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.] k

Paul is writing to the Church in Rome, to believing circumcised of the heart Christians. The Church is a mix of both Jew and Gentile Christians. He is certainly not writing to un-believers. There is only one gospel not two, one Jewish another Gentile. There can be a different culture approach but it is the same gospel.

[Rms2:1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things. 2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. 3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?]

Paul warns both Gentile and Jewish Christians about judging others or one another.

[Rms3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:]

[Rms16:16 Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. 19 For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. 20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen. 21 Timotheus my workfellow, and Lucius, and Jason, and Sosipater, my kinsmen, salute you. 22 I Tertius, who wrote this epistle, salute you in the Lord. 23 Gaius mine host, and of the whole church, saluteth you. Erastus [b]the chamberlain of the city saluteth you[/b], and Quartus a brother. 24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.]

Because of the Rome Church’s preeminence all the churches of Christ salute it. Only of the Roman Church is it said, God shall bruise Satan under your feet. In Rms1:8 Paul says of the Roman Church, your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Scripture KJV Biblegateway

 

[Copperhead]

God Already FULFILLED that Covenant in and through FAITHFUL Israel.

Wow. Somehow missed that. Could you please point to where Israel fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant and possessed and controlled all of this.....

Genesis 15:18 (NASB) On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,
“To your descendants I have given this land,
From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

I still have to side with the Abrahamic Covenant has yet to be fulfilled. And no, it is not a covenant with the Church or any other such wild idea. Yeshua never promised us this land grant, and none of the apostolic letters suggest that either.

 

[parousia70]

Wow. Somehow missed that. Could you please point to where Israel fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant and possessed and controlled all of this.....
Genesis 15:18 (NASB) On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,
“To your descendants I have given this land,
From the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates:

Joshua 21:43-45 Thus the LORD gave Israel all the land He had sworn to give their fathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. And the LORD gave them rest on every side, just as He had sworn to their fathers. None of their enemies could stand against them, for the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; everything was fulfilled.

 

[Copperhead]

Joshua 21:43-45 Thus the LORD gave Israel all the land He had sworn to give their fathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. And the LORD gave them rest on every side, just as He had sworn to their fathers. None of their enemies could stand against them, for the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; everything was fulfilled.

Interesting. Then how is it that they never possessed all the land from the river in Egypt to the Euphrates River? Never has Israel possessed the area of what is now Iraq for instance. There is no scripture evidence of that even during their most extended boundaries under Solomon. They never claimed all of present day Saudi Arabia as promised.

It is true, that the initial promise of the Land of Canaan (Genesis 12) was fully realized, but the land spread mentioned in the Gen 15 covenant has not been fully realized.