"Okay, I believe in a higher power(s) now...."

[Silmarien]

My turn... The 'horse' is starting to go well past rigor mortis at this point... Maybe I told one twelve-year-old because I saw his/her best friend do it. Again, please read post #96, and all others related there-after. I stated you are likely not one of them. Thus, your example above does not apply.

Your comments were not directed at me in the first place.

We touched on this earlier. If we were to verify that all natural based physical events, which includes people and places, were verified, this further lends credence to the claims of a resurrection?

Actually, yes. If the underlying framework of events were determined to be historical, then there would be a higher chance that the miracle claims were also true than if the underlying framework were riddled with problems.

If the resurrection never happened, none of it matters, according to Paul. Do you agree or not? Sounds like you do. Thus, my point has now finally been addressed.

No, I think that if the Incarnation didn't happen, none if it matters. I would not be a Unitarian.

 

[BigV]

I have already conceded all meaning to be in line with yours. Please begin now with post #183, 184?

I'm not a prophet, but I think the next step would be to report you for the offense to Christanity and then the thread will be locked own.

Another win for Christians.

 

[MrsFoundit]

Please begin now with post #183,?

I said: Your request for evidence appears to be based on the assumption that there is an entirely objective, impersonal means of establishing a world view and assessing possibilities without bias. I do not accept this can be done. Can you provide proper justification for your claim that "we" need to know what is true? Include a definition of "know" and "true", or your response will be simply deemed inadequate.

Do you believe that there is an entirely objective, impersonal means of establishing a world view and assessing possibilities without bias?

Well then, that's interesting? Your 'avatar' states:

I cannot prove any of what my 'avatar' states. Is a "claim" to you a thing a person must be able to demonstrate and persuade someone else of? I have no evidence for CF to support that I live in the UK, am married, or believe the Nicene Creed (CF definition of a Christian). I have no hesitation in pointing that out.

So what constitutes a "claim"?

You are not here, in the apologetics forum arena, defending your faith? You don't repeatedly post the statement of faith here, in these responses?

Yes, and this you do have evidence for, you have seen it.

 

[cvanwey]

Actually, yes. If the underlying framework of events were determined to be historical, then there would be a higher chance that the miracle claims were also true than if the underlying framework were riddled with problems.

I do not follow. As I agreed prior, if we verify that some character did not exist, then yes, it would obviously follow that this non-existent person could not have performed this or that.

However... assuming Jesus did exist, how is this [any more] verification He rose from the grave? Yes, we have claims of such. But you stated yourself, you do not necessarily buy into 'mystical experiences' or anecdotal testimonials? And like it or not, the 4 Gospels have them.

No, I think that if the Incarnation didn't happen, none if it matters. I would not be a Unitarian.

How do you reconcile disagreeing with 'Paul' then?

 

[MrsFoundit]

Okay then, can you please demonstrate why (your) God is (the) God then?

I can explain why I am convinced, but it is not objective. Preference for it and choice come into it. My posts 13 and 14. Plus all agrees I have put up in the thread.

If you want "evidence" you do need to state what it might be. If you have seen my existing posts on the subject of evidence, you will have noted, I am unconvinced about any world view or most peoples opinions actually being based on evidence. World views are applied philosophies, no philosophy can be proved.

When many others, whom claim opposing God(s), are wrong?

Depends on the "claim" and who is making it.

 

[cvanwey]

I said: Your request for evidence appears to be based on the assumption that there is an entirely objective, impersonal means of establishing a world view and assessing possibilities without bias. I do not accept this can be done. Can you provide proper justification for your claim that "we" need to know what is true? Include a definition of "know" and "true", or your response will be simply deemed inadequate.

Going in circles here... Answered in post #183, which carried over from post #161.

Do you believe that there is an entirely objective, impersonal means of establishing a world view and assessing possibilities without bias?

On a side note, I might ask, do we share reality, or are we possibly in the Matrix? (hypothetical)

I'm starting to get the feeling you are offering road-blocks, to avoid the notion that maybe your personal 'justification' may be vulnerable? Maybe I'm wrong? I doubt your concern would be this heightened, if I was asking you for say.... evidence of Big Foot. For which I would assume your skepticism is equal to mine, regardless if we require identical criteria or not. Yes, I assume that Big Foot likely does not exist. Just like you....?

As I stated to you, well earlier in this thread, regardless of my bias, I could not dispute that Donald Trump is the current U.S. President, without raising many 'red flags'.

I cannot prove any of what my 'avatar' states. Is a "claim" to you a thing a person must be able to demonstrate and persuade someone else of? I have no evidence for CF to support that I live in the UK, am married, or believe the Nicene Creed (CF definition of a Christian). I have no hesitation in pointing that out.

Welp, you decided to operate within this forum arena. And the objective here, is as follows:

Christian Apologetics

A forum for non-Christians to challenge the Christian faith, and for Christians to defend their faith.

Thus far, I've even conceded the definition of faith, and you are continuing to delay the requested process of this forum arena.

 

[cvanwey]

I can explain why I am convinced, but it is not objective. Preference for it and choice come into it. My posts 13 and 14. Plus all agrees I have put up in the thread.

Responded to in posts 16, and beyond. I don't want to go in circles again. Can you please elaborate?

If you want "evidence" you do need to state what it might be. If you have seen my existing posts on the subject of evidence, you will have noted, I am unconvinced about any world view or most peoples opinions actually being based on evidence. World views are applied philosophies, no philosophy can be proved.

Okay. Why are {you} convinced yours is right, but the claims of an opposing God, are not? Do you adhere to some sort or type of reasoning/logic/evidence, which distinguishes your 'truth' from someone else's opposing claimed truth?

Depends on the "claim" and who is making it.

Say you have the up most respect for the person, do not think they are lying, view them as highly intelligent, deem them sane, they do not do drugs or drink alcohol, etc.... They claim they receive contact from an opposing God. Why do you still reject their anecdotal claim as communication with their claimed and asserted God?

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Not exactly.

Okay.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Elijah??? I never said anything about Elijah, nor was I referring to him as an example of any kind.

Apologies, Philo. I assumed you were making some kind of point. Turns out you weren't.

 

[coffee4u]

How do you know THE one true God authored the Bible? We know, for sure, that men wrote it. How do you know it was THE God inspired?

The rest below is merely deemed circular to such a skeptic until you can provide your rationale as to how you concluded the above.

Because it's discerned through the spirit. The Bible says that all of us were dead in our sins and in our spirit and that spiritual things are complete foolishness to us. God can't be proved. No matter what book or article you read, you will never prove or disprove God. The fact that Jesus lived does have proof which is why I recommend the Book "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" But if you are waiting on proof of God on a plater to arrive you will wait forever. The spirit can be softened or awakened through hearing or reading the word or through prayer.

1) Believe that God is
2) Diligently seek him.
3) You will find.

Now if you are closed off, hard in disbelief, expect nothing. If you don't diligently seek him, expect nothing. It's as simple as that.

I will leave you all to your arguing because this is beginning to waste my time.

 

[coffee4u]

But what about the evidence that demands a verdict?

What about it? It's a book aimed at showing people that Jesus lived. At best maybe it will give you some proof of Jesus.

 

[coffee4u]

Absolutely nothing you said is relevant. You dodged every single point I made. I accept your concession on the issue.

PS

Why are you linking to a Mormon Bible? You're just not paying attention at all, are you? I think I'm worth more than the 5 seconds you put into your response. We're done! *Kicks the dust off feet.*

PPS

If you are Mormon, you're in violation of the rules here because you are not allowed to self-identify as Christian.

I wasn't, I was just in a hurry. If I did it was by accident. I'm an evangelical not an LDS.

I have no idea of any point that I dodged except that you are wrong and I do not debate scripture with atheists. I came here to answer some questions by the other poster, this is a sidetrack.
Good day.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I did not cite the Bible.

I know. Therefore, I assume that when you say no miracle has ever been caught on camera or ever will, that you are simply making thing up. Biblical reference, please, for your curious idea that it is impossible for a miracle to be caught on camera.

I asked you how you could know you could believe your own experience? Would you have evidence to convince anyone else of your newly discovered truth? Can it not be used by many religions, and therefore valid for none?

You created this hypothetical experience, I am asking you why you are saying you would believe it at the same time as presenting arguments as to why it would not be reliable. Can you resolve this?

Yes. Fairly easily.
I'm afraid you're confused, MrsFoundit. If I experienced a genuine, bona fide miracle, my saying so that wouldn't be compelling evidence for anyone else - unless I caught it on video, of course - but for me, it would be good evidence. You're mixing up your arguments, I'm afraid. I was saying what a good example of evidence for me would be.
And in answering, you make my case for me. Every religion claims personal experiences with the divine. Therefore, none of them are compelling, as they all have equally unproven claims.

Well if anyone sees Jesus in incarnate form on earth you have almost got a relevant reference.

Ah. Are you finally offering some evidence?

Unfortunately the point still actually does not work very well for you, because we do not have any Biblical basis for concluding that everyone received healing for every injury without regard for other factors, even when Jesus was in incarnate.

The point works just fine for me. It is alleged that Jesus healed wounds, but the only evidence of this is a story written two thousand years ago. Therefore, it is of an extremely low grade of evidence - laughably so, in fact - and can be dismissed. You, apparently, have no other evidence to offer.

There is really no point in you claiming that if you saw it you would believe it, because writing down what one saw is the "on camera" of the time. You do not believe it.

Writing down what one saw was "the camera" of the time? What a strange thing to say. Yes, and sitting on the ground and going "vroom, vroom!" was the Rolls-Royce of the time.
Again, we can simply note that you have not offered any evidence to justify your beliefs.

"Finally" as in since the first page?

I see you continue to make up your own interpretations of what is being said.

I'm sorry, MrsFoundit, but the truth is you were asked to offer evidence that your beliefs are true, and you have offered precisely nothing.

Thank you very much for your time. I cam here to find if there is evidence that the claims of the Christian religion are true. I can now assume that there is none, otherwise the good folk of Christian Forums would have offered it by now.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Because it's discerned through the spirit. The Bible says that all of us were dead in our sins and in our spirit and that spiritual things are complete foolishness to us. God can't be proved. No matter what book or article you read, you will never prove or disprove God. The fact that Jesus lived does have proof which is why I recommend the Book "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" But if you are waiting on proof of God on a plater to arrive you will wait forever. The spirit can be softened or awakened through hearing or reading the word or through prayer.

1) Believe that God is
2) Diligently seek him.
3) You will find.

Now if you are closed off, hard in disbelief, expect nothing. If you don't diligently seek him, expect nothing. It's as simple as that.

I will leave you all to your arguing because this is beginning to waste my time.

Oh, as far as I'm concerned you're already finished, coffe4u. I came and asked if you had an evidence that the Christian God was real. You admitted you hadn't. Thank you very much. Case closed.

I was just thinking, it's a shame we didn't get any evidence that demands a verdict. Sounds a bit as if you're backtracking. I was hoping that the "evidence that demands a verdict" was more than just "a book aimed at showing people that Jesus lived."
(takes a moment to check the book out on Amazon)
Hmmm. While I'm not about to spend more than ten dollars on a book after the Christians on this thread have failed to produce anything worth following up, I do note that the book's promotion makes some quite spectacular promises:
"God's Word tells us we must "always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have" (1 Peter 3:15). This updated classic from Josh McDowell and Sean McDowell will give you the tools you need to do just that."
Since @cvanwey and I have now spent a considerable amount of time asking you and @MrsFoundit for the reason for the hope they have...well, it's a shame the two of you haven't read this book recently. Otherwise, surely you would be able to answer us.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

I have no idea of any point that I dodged except that you are wrong and I do not debate scripture with atheists. I came here to answer some questions by the other poster, this is a sidetrack.

Uhhh...you do know that debating scripture with atheists is more or less the point of this forum?

 

[cvanwey]

Because it's discerned through the spirit.

We know the Bible was God inspired because "it's discerned through the spirit." But wait...

The Bible says that all of us were dead in our sins and in our spirit and that spiritual things are complete foolishness to us.

The Bible says the above, and we know it is God inspired because of the above statement. But wait...

God can't be proved.

Okay. Do I just disregard your assertions above? I asked how do we know the Bible was God inspired. You stated how. But now, you state you cannot prove it.

So if you cannot prove it, how can you know?

No matter what book or article you read, you will never prove or disprove God.

I did not ask you for a book list. And of course you cannot disprove God. You cannot truly prove any negative. But God asserts that He does and will prove His existence. I'm simply asking for the proof of His mere existence. You are stepping all over yourself thus far, quite frankly. I remain optimistic, for now...

The fact that Jesus lived does have proof which is why I recommend the Book "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" But if you are waiting on proof of God on a plater to arrive you will wait forever. The spirit can be softened or awakened through hearing or reading the word or through prayer.

He seems like He really likes to play hide-and-go-seek? It sounds like, if you really really and truly truly want Him to be real, keep reading the Bible, and pray enough, He will eventually reveal Himself to you? Oh, but wait. I did that for decades, and no such luck.

1) Believe that God is
2) Diligently seek him.
3) You will find.

1) Believe that God is <- Did for decades
2) Diligently seek him. <- Did for decades
3) You will find. <- Not yet, so I decided to stop after 30+ years

this is beginning to waste my time.

I couldn't agree more. Please look up circular reasoning, just for starters.

 

[coffee4u]

Oh, as far as I'm concerned you're already finished, coffe4u. I came and asked if you had an evidence that the Christian God was real. You admitted you hadn't. Thank you very much. Case closed.

I was just thinking, it's a shame we didn't get any evidence that demands a verdict. Sounds a bit as if you're backtracking. I was hoping that the "evidence that demands a verdict" was more than just "a book aimed at showing people that Jesus lived."
(takes a moment to check the book out on Amazon)
Hmmm. While I'm not about to spend more than ten dollars on a book after the Christians on this thread have failed to produce anything worth following up, I do note that the book's promotion makes some quite spectacular promises:
"God's Word tells us we must "always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have" (1 Peter 3:15). This updated classic from Josh McDowell and Sean McDowell will give you the tools you need to do just that."
Since @cvanwey and I have now spent a considerable amount of time asking you and @MrsFoundit for the reason for the hope they have...well, it's a shame the two of you haven't read this book recently. Otherwise, surely you would be able to answer us.

And I told you the evidence is in the spiritual realm and what you are asking, some kind of hard evidence does not exist. You find God with your spirit and your heart. Can I do that for you? No, you can only do that for yourself. That is why I told you to read the Bible and pray about finding God and that if you truly seek you shall find. But you are not truly seeking so you won't find.
As for proof the closest you will get to is evidence of Jesus' life and his claims which is why I recommended that book.

My hope is in Jesus because I did seek and my spirit found.
Matthew 7:7
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
That is the answer, but you don't like the answer. That isn't my fault.

I don't have the book anymore. Why not ask the library if they have it?

The definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing over and over. I feel that I have given the same answer to this question quite enough times and have nothing more to add. If you have something that is actually new to put such as -you read either the Bible or that book I am happy to answer other questions.

 

[dlamberth]

No, it does not help at all actually If person A and person B both make the exact same claims above, how do we distinguish which one is false? Again, go back to post #43

1. Both correct
2. One correct, one incorrect
3. Both incorrect



This response also gets us nowhere unfortunately

There are those who only know about God.
And than there are those who actually know God.
For those who know God, they know Love.
Love unites. Love finds Oneness.
Those who only know about God, they tend to find separation and division.

A very influential person in my life is a medieval women mystic by the name of Marguerite Porete. Porete wrote about Divine Love in "The Mirror of Simple Souls" where she drew a vision of Human Beings uniting with God through Love.

She also wrote that there are two kinds of churches. The first she called the "High Holy Church". That church preaches Love. The other church she called the "Little Holy Church". That church preaches rules, laws and order. It's the church that preaches Love is where both of your options can be correct. That's because Love unites. The church that preaches rules, laws and order on the other hand will always divide and find separation.

No surprise, Marguerite Porete was burned at the stake by the church that preaches rules, laws and order.

The moral? it's through Love that humanity finds unity in God, even coming from different religions.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

And I told you the evidence is in the spiritual realm and what you are asking, some kind of hard evidence does not exist. You find God with your spirit and your heart. Can I do that for you? No, you can only do that for yourself.

Understood.
We came on here and asked if Christians had any evidence that their beliefs were true, and you told us you don't.
Thank you very much.

That is why I told you to read the Bible and pray about finding God and that if you truly seek you shall find. But you are not truly seeking so you won't find.

Put yourself in our shoes, and you will see the problem. There are thousands of gods believed in by different people. To investigate every one is impossible. It would take much longer than my life span, much, much longer. And why should we start with Christianity? What makes it deserving of special attention? All religions claim they are true and the others are false. We came here in the hope that we could be shown that one of them has something the others don't have. Now, we see it doesn't.

I don't have the book anymore. Why not ask the library if they have it?

Because this is a debating forum, and we expect Christians to have their answers ready.

Thank you, coffee4u. Goodbye.

 

[coffee4u]

We know the Bible was God inspired because "it's discerned through the spirit." But wait...



The Bible says the above, and we know it is God inspired because of the above statement. But wait...



Okay. Do I just disregard your assertions above? I asked how do we know the Bible was God inspired. You stated how. But now, you state you cannot prove it.

So if you cannot prove it, how can you know?

I know in my spirit in my heart. Which is no proof to you, but it is to me.
I can't give you some incantation and have God appear to you in a burning bush.
This is why people go to seances because things do happen. Like I said, demons prey upon people looking for signs.
The proof is in your own relationship with God, the knowing in your spirit, seeing prayer answered. I can't explain it more than that. These things are intangible.

I did not ask you for a book list. And of course you cannot disprove God. You cannot truly prove any negative. But God asserts that He does and will prove His existence. I'm simply asking for the proof of His mere existence. You are stepping all over yourself thus far, quite frankly. I remain optimistic, for now...

My answers remain the same. The Bible says that creation alone is enough physical proof.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

He seems like He really likes to play hide-and-go-seek? It sounds like, if you really really and truly truly want Him to be real, keep reading the Bible, and pray enough, He will eventually reveal Himself to you? Oh, but wait. I did that for decades, and no such luck.

1) Believe that God is <- Did for decades
2) Diligently seek him. <- Did for decades
3) You will find. <- Not yet, so I decided to stop after 30+ years

Only you know what you did or how you went about seeking God. Were you trying to make God show himself in the way that you wanted him to or in how he chose to? I don't know if this was how you were but there is a story about a drowning man.
A fellow was stuck on his rooftop in a flood. He was praying to God for help.

Soon a man in a rowboat came by and the fellow shouted to the man on the roof, "Jump in, I can save you."

The stranded fellow shouted back, "No, it's OK, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me."

So the rowboat went on.

Then a motorboat came by. "The fellow in the motorboat shouted, "Jump in, I can save you."

To this the stranded man said, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the motorboat went on.

Then a helicopter came by and the pilot shouted down, "Grab this rope and I will lift you to safety."

To this the stranded man again replied, "No thanks, I'm praying to God and he is going to save me. I have faith."

So the helicopter reluctantly flew away.

Soon the water rose above the rooftop and the man drowned. He went to Heaven. He finally got his chance to discuss this whole situation with God, at which point he exclaimed, "I had faith in you but you didn't save me, you let me drown. I don't understand why!"

To this God replied, "I sent you a rowboat and a motorboat and a helicopter, what more did you expect?"

Most times it isn't that God isn't there, it's we can't see him because he doesn't meet our expectations.

I couldn't agree more. Please look up circular reasoning, just for starters.

This is not circular reasoning, its the fact that neither one of you believe the answer.