Why Christians Should Embrace Partial Preterism

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sovereigngrace

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You must use spiritual eyes, not the physical eyeballs.

What are you talking about? You are denying reality all around you! That is Gnostic teaching.

Does sin continue today?
Does death continue today?
Does crying continue today?
Does pain continue today?
Does sorrow continue today?
Does the curse continue today?

Are we still not living in an "evil age" today?
Do people still marry today?
Has "the bondage of corruption" been finally removed from the creature and creation?
 
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solid_core

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What are you talking about? You are denying reality all around you! That is Gnostic teaching.

Does sin continue today?
Does death continue today?
Does crying continue today?
Does pain continue today?
Does sorrow continue today?
Does the curse continue today?
Are we still not living in an "evil age" today?
Do people still marry today?
Has "the bondage of corruption" been finally removed from the creature and creation?
Spiritual reality is more real than physical shadows.

Jesus has already won and the Roman Empire was the last earthly kingdom before His kingdom came, as Daniel prophecised.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Yet according to the writer of Hebrews , while it was indeed obsolete, it was still extant, and had yet to disappear decades AFTER the cross:

Heb 8:13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

The outward facade didn't disappear until AD70. But that was totally secondary to the mission and work of Christ introducing the new covenant. AD70 was simply the inevitable consequences of the introduction of the new covenant. The old covenant was rendered redundant.
 
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parousia70

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So, you do not believe in a literal physical visible future return of the Lord Jesus Christ?

There are some scriptural hurdles to this.

2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Just how long is "no more"?

The coming of Christ on the clouds that every eye would see (Rev 1:7) is actually shown us in Revelation 14:14-20. There can be no doubt that the Rev 14:14-20 passage makes clear
that it is a coming in the heavenlies like unto the many O.T. Jehovah comings (cf. Isa 19:1-2; Deut 33:2; 2 Sam 22:7-16; Zech 9:13-16; Zeph 1:2-5; Isaiah 31, Neh 9:13-15; Hab 3:3-16; etc.). Jehovah came often in O.T. times, yet his presence, which always performed the desolations, was potent and invisible, orchestrated FROM His Seated position on His Heavenly Throne.

I can find no scriptural instruction to interpret the NT language of "He is coming on the clouds" and will be "seen by all eyes" in polar opposite fashion to the myriad of OT cloud comings of God that "every eye saw".
 
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sovereigngrace

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Spiritual reality is more real than physical shadows.

Jesus has already won and the Roman Empire was the last earthly kingdom before His kingdom came, as Daniel prophecised.

You are living in denial. That is not a good place to live. Look around you and you will see the evidence of corruption. Look at a photograph from 10 years ago and then look in the mirror and you you will see the evidence of corruption. Read a newspaper or turn on your television and you will see the evidence that we are still in an evil age.
 
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sovereigngrace

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There are some scriptural hurdles to this.

2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Just how long is "no more"?

The coming of Christ on the clouds that every eye would see (Rev 1:7) is actually shown us in Revelation 14:14-20. There can be no doubt that the Rev 14:14-20 passage makes clear
that it is a coming in the heavenlies like unto the many O.T. Jehovah comings (cf. Isa 19:1-2; Deut 33:2; 2 Sam 22:7-16; Zech 9:13-16; Zeph 1:2-5; Isaiah 31, Neh 9:13-15; Hab 3:3-16; etc.). Jehovah came often in O.T. times, yet his presence, which always performed the desolations, was potent and invisible, orchestrated FROM His Seated position on His Heavenly Throne.

I can find no scriptural instruction to interpret the NT language of "He is coming on the clouds" and will be "seen by all eyes" in polar opposite fashion to the myriad of OT cloud comings of God that "every eye saw".

Is the second coming of Christ an ongoing process or a literal future physical climactic event?
Is the resurrection of the dead an ongoing process or a literal future physical climactic event
What Scriptures do you believe teaches a literal future coming of Christ?
What Scriptures do you believe teaches a bodily future coming of Christ?
 
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claninja

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Full preterism believes that the destruction of Jerusalem fulfilled all eschatological or "end times" events, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming, or Parousia, and the Final Judgment.

Right, but you said it is heresy to not believe in a resurrection or 2nd coming. Full preterists believein a 2nd coming and resurrection, even as you just stated. So What Christian theology believes in no 2nd coming or future resurrection.
 
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sovereigngrace

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There are some scriptural hurdles to this.

2 Corinthians 5:16
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Just how long is "no more"?

The coming of Christ on the clouds that every eye would see (Rev 1:7) is actually shown us in Revelation 14:14-20. There can be no doubt that the Rev 14:14-20 passage makes clear
that it is a coming in the heavenlies like unto the many O.T. Jehovah comings (cf. Isa 19:1-2; Deut 33:2; 2 Sam 22:7-16; Zech 9:13-16; Zeph 1:2-5; Isaiah 31, Neh 9:13-15; Hab 3:3-16; etc.). Jehovah came often in O.T. times, yet his presence, which always performed the desolations, was potent and invisible, orchestrated FROM His Seated position on His Heavenly Throne.

I can find no scriptural instruction to interpret the NT language of "He is coming on the clouds" and will be "seen by all eyes" in polar opposite fashion to the myriad of OT cloud comings of God that "every eye saw".

  • Did every eye see Jesus coming back in AD70? Of course not! That is absurd!
  • Upon His appearing, did the Jews wail over Him? Of course not! That is absurd!
  • Equally, did the Gentiles also wail because of him? Of course not! That is absurd!
 
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solid_core

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You are living in denial. That is not a good place to live. Look around you and you will see the evidence of corruption. Look at a photograph from 10 years ago and then look in the mirror and you you will see the evidence of corruption. Read a newspaper or turn on your television and you will see the evidence that we are still in an evil age.
Not sure what denial you are talking about.

Daniel said that during the Roman Empire, Christ will come and will fill the earth. He heard the voice "now the kingdoms of this world became the kingdoms of God".

Jesus came the first time and said to his followers that He will return for the second time in their life span. It happened, because He cannot lie.

If what you physically see does not correspond with what you expected to happen, thats not my problem.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Right, but you said it is heresy to not believe in a resurrection or 2nd coming. Full preterists believein a 2nd coming and resurrection, even as you just stated. So What Christian theology believes in no 2nd coming or future resurrection.

So, when is the 2nd coming in your estimation?
When is the physical resurrection of the just and the unjust?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Not sure what denial you are talking about.

Daniel said that during the Roman Empire, Christ will come and will fill the earth. He heard the voice "now the kingdoms of this world became the kingdoms of God".

Jesus came the first time and said to his followers that He will return for the second time in their life span. It happened, because He cannot lie.

If what you physically see does not correspond with what you expected to happen, thats not my problem.

Stop avoiding the subject.

Does sin continue today?
Does death continue today?
Does crying continue today?
Does pain continue today?
Does sorrow continue today?
Does the curse continue today?

Are we still not living in an "evil age" today?
Do people still marry today?
Has "the bondage of corruption" been finally removed from the creature and creation?
 
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claninja

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Even many Premils believe that as well,

Per Premil, when was the starting point for believers to be caught up to heaven up death?

For one, Revelation 20:6 indicates, in regards to those that reign with Christ a thousand years---these shall be priests to God and Christ. In what way does it make sense for disembodied souls to be priests of God and Christ while in heaven awaiting their eternal bodies via the resurrection of the dead? Where is a 2nd witness to this alleged fact in the Bible, where anyone while in heaven awaiting their eternal bodies, are performing priestly duties at the time?

Per Peter, believers were already a "royal" priesthood in the 1st century. So why would anyone have to wait for death to become a member of the royal priesthood, when we already are?

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, to proclaim the virtues of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.

Per John, we are already priests to God. Why would we have to wait for physical death to be made priests unto God?

Revelation 1:5-6 To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Amils don't believe you have to wait until to death to become a kingdom of priests. Amils believe you already are through Christ's work.

One can't cherry pick in Revelation 20:6 and claim only some of those who reign with Christ a thousand years, are priests to God and Christ, and that some aren't. And Amils wonder why some of us can't get onboard with Amil. To do so one would have to accept, as bizzare as what I submitted above already is, as normal and as fact, though Amils can't remotely prove this via other Scriptures, where anyone while in heaven awaiting their eternal bodies, are performing priestly duties at the time, in heaven.

What are these priestly duties you are talking about?
 
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parousia70

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The outward facade didn't disappear until AD70. But that was totally secondary to the mission and work of Christ introducing the new covenant. AD70 was simply the inevitable consequences of the introduction of the new covenant. The old covenant was rendered redundant.

Secondary, or paramount and necessary?
 
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solid_core

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Stop avoiding the subject.

Does sin continue today?
Does death continue today?
Does crying continue today?
Does pain continue today?
Does sorrow continue today?
Does the curse continue today?
Are we still not living in an "evil age" today?
Do people still marry today?
Has "the bondage of corruption" been finally removed from the creature and creation?
If you live by sight and by your flesh, sure.
 
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claninja

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That aside for now, what about my point in regards to the coming in Matthew 24:30? Don't Preterists apply that to what took place in 66-70 AD?

You didn't make a point about matthew 24:30 in post 223, so I don't know.

Preterists believe Matthew 24:15-28 took place from 66-70Ad. Preterists believe Matthew 24:29 occurred immediately after the events of verses 15-28, as stated by scripture.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
 
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parousia70

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Did every eye see Jesus coming back in AD70? Of course not! That is absurd!
Every time Yahweh "came in the clouds" and was "seen by all eyes" throughout the OT He did so INVISIBLY. We have absolutely ZERO scriptural instruction to make that same language mean something POLAR OPPOSITE to the clear and consistent OT teaching when we find it in the NT.
ZERO.

YAHWEH WAS NOT SEEN BY HUMAN EYES HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)

NOR HERE:

[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)

NOR HERE:

Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)

Tell me, Where do you find the scriptural instruction to interpret the OT phrases "God rides a swift cloud" and was "seen by the eyes of all nations" in POLAR OPPOSITE FASHION to the NT phrase "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see"?

Friend, again, The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 IS the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings cited above.

Here one more that should hammer this fact home to any honest Bible expositor:

AFTER David's Defeat of Saul, He described the battle this way:

2 Samuel 22:8-16
“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

God sure was a huffin and a puffin right there wasn't He?

Bowing the heavens, starting fires with his nostrils, shooting arrows, actually seen riding on Clouds and Cherubs, shaking the heavens and laying the foundation of the entire earth bare!

Is it your position that these things LITERALLY happened during that Battle, exactly as David said they did?

I hope not.. I hope you would understand this is How the prophets describe the fall of nations, kings and kingdoms..

Again we have no instruction to take this same language when we find it in the NT and apply a POLAR OPPOSITE interpretation, yet apparently this is exactly what you are doing.

As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).
 
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claninja

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When do you believe it occurred, and what scripture do you use to support that belief?

Through His death, burial and resurrection. You?

That doesn’t answer my whole question. I asked what verses do you use to support this belief. Then I will respond.

So, when is the 2nd coming in your estimation?
When is the physical resurrection of the just and the unjust?

You still haven't answered my question.
 
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claninja

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1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 can only be meaning a one time event, thus has zero to do with when each person dies in this age. Even though a person's soul goes to heaven when they die, what does any of that have to do with anything in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16?

1 thessalonians 4:13-16 teaches that the dead are first raised and brought to the clouds to meet the Lord. It is AFTER that the those who are alive are caught up to the Lord.

Preterist believe that the dead were raised to be caught up to heaven after the destruction of the old covenant age in 66-70ad at the coming judgment of Christ on Israel. It is AFTER this point that those in Christ are then caught up to heaven instead of "hades" upon physical death.

Amils appear to believe the dead were raised to be caught up to heaven after the cross. From the cross onward, those in Christ are then caught up to heaven instead of to "hades" upon physical death.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Secondary, or paramount and necessary?

Secondary and inevitable.
  • Do you believe the dead in Christ have a future physical resurrection when Jesus comes?
  • Where the unjust dead resurrected in AD70? If so in what way or form? Where are they now?
 
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