Why discuss Calvinism vs Arminianism in Evangelism? Starts with Definitions

[BBAS 64]

They were spoken to them most assuredly. And I do love that you realize that there are no univocals in language - words and phrases which mean the same thing every time they are encountered.

But that phrase in Revelation means exactly what it looks like. He's not limiting context just to the church there. He's reminding them that anyone can come to him. Because that's what he always preached. And though it be that the father must draw a man, Jesus explained that through his crucifixion he would draw all men. At no time did he teach that men were elected before their obedience. We have too many passages in scripture which tell us the benefits of salvation come after obedience and that we are responsible. Were it God who was causing our obedience, there would be no justification for punishment.

The phrase "any man" means any man. All have the opportunity. As Paul wrote in Romans,, "for there is no partiality with God." Not even when there was a division between Gentile and Jew did he show partiality as we can read again in Acts 10.

Good Day, Al

But God is the effective primary only cause:

EZE 36 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.


His work of giving, removing and replacing, and putting His Spirit has direct effects that are the appointed purpose of his doing, thus causing.

He is Just (ontologically) no Justification is needed for what he does, he is accountable to not a thing.

In Him

Bill

 

[Charlie24]

Good Day, Charlie

Not to be a stick in the mud... but you have changed the subject. Not sure why you did that, anyhow do you have a basis for your assertion on Calvin's view of repentance?

That is all I was asking for...Really.

In Him,

Bill

Good Day, Charlie

Not to be a stick in the mud... but you have changed the subject. Not sure why you did that, anyhow do you have a basis for your assertion on Calvin's view of repentance?

That is all I was asking for...Really.

In Him,

Bill

I haven't changed the subject. I told you that Calvin disregarded the scriptures that God has called all men to repentance.

You said, where did you get that from?

My last post is where I got it from.

As far as repentance, I do not agree that repentance follows faith, quite the contrary.

Of course, I can think of very little where I agree with Calvin.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Good Day, Al

But God is the effective primary only cause:

EZE 36 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

This is not an indication that it is against anyone's will. To draw this conclusion you must disregard the rest of the Bible. That is a terrible practice.

His work of giving, removing and replacing, and putting His Spirit has direct effects that are the appointed purpose of his doing, thus causing.

He is Just (ontologically) no Justification is needed for what he does, he is accountable to not a thing.

In Him

Bill

Yes, more blaspemy against God and man both. Man is too stupid to recognize the blatant contradiction between a partial God who is arbitrary and unjust and the just God who is so just man's standards will never meet his. You've cherry picked a single verse and acted as if it dismisses everything else taught in the Bible. If God holds those who he's not drawn accountable for their sins, then he's a tyrant, not a just God. He created people so that he could burn them up later for his own personal pleasure.

 

[Ilikecats]

This is not an indication that it is against anyone's will. To draw this conclusion you must disregard the rest of the Bible. That is a terrible practice.



Yes, more blaspemy against God and man both. Man is too stupid to recognize the blatant contradiction between a partial God who is arbitrary and unjust and the just God who is so just man's standards will never meet his. You've cherry picked a single verse and acted as if it dismisses everything else taught in the Bible. If God holds those who he's not drawn accountable for their sins, then he's a tyrant, not a just God. He created people so that he could burn them up later for his own personal pleasure.

I don’t think so. God has chosen people many times throughout the Bible. Is he unjust because he chooses? Of course not.

11 He replied, "Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. 12 Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.
Matthew 13:11-12

 

[BBAS 64]

This is not an indication that it is against anyone's will. To draw this conclusion you must disregard the rest of the Bible. That is a terrible practice.



Yes, more blaspemy against God and man both. Man is too stupid to recognize the blatant contradiction between a partial God who is arbitrary and unjust and the just God who is so just man's standards will never meet his. You've cherry picked a single verse and acted as if it dismisses everything else taught in the Bible. If God holds those who he's not drawn accountable for their sins, then he's a tyrant, not a just God. He created people so that he could burn them up later for his own personal pleasure.

Good day, Al

Why build the Straw man where did I say or does the passage say it is against anyone's will.

You can build it and burn it down, but the fallacy does not server you well.

Cherry picked... You assert that God does not cause obedience ( which you have no biblical basis for BTW). I posted clear scripture as big rebuttal against your assertion . Then you choose not to interact with that text and infer that is good practice.

Um... Did God know they would burn when he created them?

Or did he learn that later?

In Him,
Bill

 

[Al Touthentop]

Good day, Al

Why build the Straw man where did I say or does the passage say it is against anyone's will.

You can build it and burn it down, but the fallacy does not server you well.

Cherry picked... You assert that God does not cause obedience ( which you have no biblical basis for BTW). I posted clear scripture as big rebuttal against your assertion . Then you choose not to interact with that text and infer that is good practice.

You quoted a prophecy. You assert that in that passage, God says he causes people to obey against their will. This is pretext. It doesn't say against a person's will.

Um... Did God know they would burn when he created them?

According to Calvin's doctrine, he create them TO burn.

 

[Al Touthentop]

I don’t think so. God has chosen people many times throughout the Bible. Is he unjust because he chooses? Of course not.

Calvin asserts that God chooses some people beforehand to obey and some to disobey. He doesn't give anyone free will and he gives some people later the ability to obey and others he withholds this ability from. Those who he's prevented from being able to obey he later punishes for, wait for it.......not obeying. That is blasphemy, not a rational doctrine.

 

[Ilikecats]

You quoted a prophecy. You assert that in that passage, God says he causes people to obey against their will. This is pretext. It doesn't say against a person's will.



According to Calvin's doctrine, he create them TO burn.

How about the story of Jonah? He didn’t want to prophecy and God sent a fish to eat him. Paul? He went around killing Christians until he was blinded. God was not respecting someone’s will.

 

[Ilikecats]

Calvin asserts that God chooses some people beforehand to obey and some to disobey. He doesn't give anyone free will and he gives some people later the ability to obey and others he withholds this ability from. Those who he's prevented from being able to obey he later punishes for, wait for it.......not obeying. That is blasphemy, not a rational doctrine.

The bible says no one obeys. No one seeks after God. He then chooses from everyone who is disobedient who to save.

 

[BBAS 64]

You quoted a prophecy. You assert that in that passage, God says he causes people to obey against their will. This is pretext. It doesn't say against a person's will.



According to Calvin's doctrine, he create them TO burn.

Good Day, Al

There you go again.... where did I say it was against their will?

I said exactly what the text says....

I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

for some reason you do not like that God claims for Himself he is the Cause and we can attribute the effects to Him directly.

Why is that?

In Him,

Bill

 

[Al Touthentop]

How about the story of Jonah? He didn’t want to prophecy and God sent a fish to eat him. Paul? He went around killing Christians until he was blinded. God was not respecting someone’s will.

God didn't cause Paul to kill Christians and he didn't cause Jonah to obey. In fact in Saul's story we see that Saul became repentant, of his own will. And what did Ananias tell him?

"And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins."

And Saul, of his own free will got up and did so. God also cured his blindness.

In the case of Jonah, God didn't cause or force him to obey. What he did was put him in a bad situation because of his disobedience. Jonah then repented of his own free will. It was when Jonah repented and prayed to God that God released him from the belly of the fish. Jonah was still angry because God showed mercy on Nineveh.

 

[Al Touthentop]

Good Day, Al

There you go again.... where did I say it was against their will?

I said exactly what the text says....

I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

for some reason you do not like that God claims for Himself he is the Cause and we can attribute the effects to Him directly.

His words are the cause. He doesn't animate us to obey and some others not to obey.

 

[Al Touthentop]

The bible says no one obeys. No one seeks after God. He then chooses from everyone who is disobedient who to save.

Paul was using hyperbole there. We can read in the Bible plenty of people who obeyed. John the Baptist's parents were called righteous. Abel was called Righteous. Noah was called Righteous. Abraham was called righteous. Why? Because God caused them to obey? No, because they found grace - discovered it for themselves - and because of their recognition of that grace already given to them, obeyed God. God said he approved of them because of their obedience, not because he chose them beforehand to animate as robots.

 

[BBAS 64]

His words are the cause. He doesn't animate us to obey and some others not to obey.

Good day, Al

Ok to some extent yes (His words) are His and are used by Him as His instrumental means.

But that would still make Him the Primary effective cause. I said nothing about disobeying or animation.

Simple cause and effect.

And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

He is the cause of our obeying His rules... sorry but the text is clear.

You do not like that, not so sure why. Where do you think obedience come from what is the cause?

In Him,

Bill

 

[Al Touthentop]

Good day, Al

Ok to some extent yes (His words) are His and are used by Him as His instrumental means.

But that would still make Him the Primary effective cause. I said nothing about disobeying or animation.

But Calvin does. So what I'm arguing is that the entire Bible repudiates Calvin's assertion that God causes us to obey outside of our own free will.

The words that God has delivered for salvation cannot do anything until we submit our own wills to them.

When Peter was sent to Cornelius, the Angel told him that he was to go preach. When the Angel spoke to Cornelius he said that Paul would come and tell him words by which he would be saved.

Neither were forced by God to do anything. Neither obeyed the words because God forced them.

Yes, when we obey, it is not our actions which alone save us. We wouldn't even know what to do were it not for the words. When our conscience is pricked by the words, we either obey or our hearts are hardened. God doesn't make us do anything against our own will.

 

[BBAS 64]

Paul was using hyperbole there. We can read in the Bible plenty of people who obeyed. John the Baptist's parents were called righteous. Abel was called Righteous. Noah was called Righteous. Abraham was called righteous. Why? Because God caused them to obey? No, because they found grace - discovered it for themselves - and because of their recognition of that grace already given to them, obeyed God. God said he approved of them because of their obedience, not because he chose them beforehand to animate as robots.

Good day, Al

You have stuff a little of here ...

Abraham was righteous but the cause of obedience was faith.
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place

Also that Faith Was credited to him as Righteousness. Which now has to beg the question where did the faith come from?

Easy it was a gracious gift of God, that he was Granted for the sake of Christ:

Phil 1:29
For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,

In Him,

Bill

 

[bling]

People are blind to God and only think an idol they think is him is making them an offer.

Does God blind them? They can only blame themselves.

 

[BBAS 64]

But Calvin does. So what I'm arguing is that the entire Bible repudiates Calvin's assertion that God causes us to obey outside of our own free will.

The words that God has delivered for salvation cannot do anything until we submit our own wills to them.

When Peter was sent to Cornelius, the Angel told him that he was to go preach. When the Angel spoke to Cornelius he said that Paul would come and tell him words by which he would be saved.

Neither were forced by God to do anything. Neither obeyed the words because God forced them.

Yes, when we obey, it is not our actions which alone save us. We wouldn't even know what to do were it not for the words. When our conscience is pricked by the words, we either obey or our hearts are hardened. God doesn't make us do anything against our own will.

Good Day, Al

Source for Calvin's assertion....

So then Gods word is insufficient to bring about the salvation of men, and is need of a secondary cause..... namely you?

Then of course there is this:

Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

God works in you to will and to act..... but we shall save that for another day.

So you are the cause of your own obedience? Seeing you will not deal with the text I provided, that clearly said other wise.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Dave L]

Does God blind them? They can only blame themselves.

He leaves them blind unless he opens their eyes.

 

[Dave L]

Isn't it funny how Calvinists love to redefine words for their own convenience.

It's in the Greek. The same Draw/Drag used for fishing nets.