Abortion

[Speedwell]

People also use to believe the man's sperm contained a tiny human and the women merely incubated it and that the world was flat, what of it? We are not talking about them, we are talking about the history of the contraceptive pill and how Sanger managed to get it passed the current laws of the time. First as a cycle adjuster and later as something to prevent fertilization while concealing it also affected implantation. They knew very well by the middle of the twentieth century that life begins at fertilization.



So no, they already knew it was life, human life, and they already knew it interfered with implantation. That was what they wanted. By preventing pregnancy Sanger hoped to lower the birth rate of the poor/black/Hispanic and Native communities.

I'm not even sure what your argument is about, I am merely sharing the history of the contraceptive pill.

Not a very strong argument. It gives the impression that you are opposed to the idea that women should be able to have sexual intercourse without risk of pregnancy.

 

[Dave Ellis]

But here it seems the criteria you want to use to say that God is immoral is by using Gods own moral objectives. That actually provides support that there are objective morals and that God is responsible for them. Otherwise you have no argument if you use your viewpoint of what is right and wrong as there is no basis to do so. Even so as mentioned God may have sufficient moral reasons for what he does that you are not able to understand so it would be hard to make a case against him.

Also we cannot really measure or compare God with the way we think about morality. For one God is the creator of life. He created the babies who you say he has killed so as the creator of life he can also destroy that life. The moral responsibility is completely different to us as the created in taking another created life. Some who painted a picture or designed something has the right to destroy it as opposed to someone who did not create it.

Also for Christians babies/children don't die, they just move from one life form to another. So the taking of a life is a completely different context to atheists who see this world as the be all and end all. In that sense the taking of a life has much more significance and consequence to atheists. God sees life as we know in the blink of an eye compared to eternity. And as the bible says when babies and children die they go to be with God so they move onto a better place.

Fair enough and that is your view and that is what subjective morality is all about. I think the article was saying that life begins when that life is first formed whether that be at conception or later when it splits into additional embryos. That is its beginning and the article is saying that though there are different stages of development the nature of it being life is still the same and it cannot be separated.

These are pediatricians who say this and they are the scientists who are experts in this field. So if there was any position that I would have some faith in it would be theirs rather than a lay person or someone who has vested interest that may bias their view.

People have often raised arguments like that about a god, and they've never made sense.

Just because you create a life doesn't give you the moral or ethical justification to terminate that life. Once that life is created, it is an independent and sentient being. It would be immoral to kill it unless it is directly posing a threat to your own life (which in the case of god would be impossible).

Seeing as god is all knowing, and he knows exactly how everyone will turn out before they are even born, I can't think of a single scenario where god would be morally justified in killing anyone or anything.

 

[Dave Ellis]

How many abortions are preformed
because of rape?
1% ----------- 2% ---------------------?
Hardly worth mentioning.
Yet, that's where they always go.
M-Bob

And it's also an extreme minority of abortions are performed beyond the first trimester, 1% may be on the high end for late term abortions.

Yet, people always go there too.

 

[pleinmont]

Here in the UK terminations aren't permitted after 22 weeks gestation.

 

[Speedwell]

Here in the UK terminations aren't permitted after 22 weeks gestation.

Which rule would, in the US. eliminate only 1-2% of abortions. Is there a provision in your rule for abortion after 22 weeks if the life of the mother is seriously threatened?

 

[pleinmont]

Which rule would, in the US. eliminate only 1-2% of abortions. Is there a provision in your rule for abortion after 22 weeks if the life of the mother is seriously threatened?

I am not aware of one.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I am not aware of one.

According to The Telegraph, there is:

Abortion after 24 weeks can be carried out after that time if there is grave risk to the life of the woman or severe foetal abnormality.

 

[jayem]

I think the verse saying God hardened the Pharaohs heart is a misinterpretation or understanding that God hardens peoples hearts. There are commentaries that say the Hebrew word does not indicate who hardened whose heart.
The Hebrew verb for “became hard” (pronounced, khazaq) is not passive, nor does it indicate who is initiating the action (it’s called a “stative” verb, meaning it doesn’t say whether it’s Pharaoh or God).
Why Pharaoh's Heart Grew Hard | The Bible Project
Pharaoh was not a blank sheet and he had his own beliefs and views which influenced his choices. He already had his own mindset against God so God would nit have had to do much persuading to harden his heart.

I'm sure Pharaoh was predisposed in some degree to refuse releasing the Hebrews. But there are other passages making it absolutely clear that God was hardening Pharaoh's heart in order to toy with him and demonstrate his power:

Exodus 7:1-3:

Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. (NASB)

Exodus 10: 1-2:

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son, and of your grandson, how I made a mockery of the Egyptians and how I performed My signs among them, that you may know that I am the Lord.” ((NASB)

What I was illustrating is simply that if you believe God is sovereign and omnipotent, then he can direct your will to align with his plans. God did exactly this in the case of Pharaoh. So getting back to my main point: how can you know that a terminated pregnancy was not ordained by God? Why can't God use abortion as an instrument of his will?

 

[coffee4u]

Not a very strong argument. It gives the impression that you are opposed to the idea that women should be able to have sexual intercourse without risk of pregnancy.

If you think a woman isn't always at risk of pregnancy anytime she has sex you may want to read about the failure rates on all forms of BC. If you are ovulating and having sex you are always at risk of pregnancy.
if you mean am I against BC that could prevent implantation? Yes, yes I am. Because that is abortion and I am pro-life.

Which rule would, in the US. eliminate only 1-2% of abortions. Is there a provision in your rule for abortion after 22 weeks if the life of the mother is seriously threatened?

No, because the baby should be delivered, not killed then delivered. The paper was very clear that any mother who was this ill (extremely rare) may still die anyway.

 

[NxNW]

A zygote is alive, if it were dead it wouldn't be splitting at a rapid rate with its sex already determined. Normally the fertilized egg stays as one life, splitting into two or even three simple adds two or more lives into the same space.

My point is that life does not necessarily begin at conception, because identical twins and triplets come into existence AFTER conception.

 

[stevevw]

People have often raised arguments like that about a god, and they've never made sense.

Just because you create a life doesn't give you the moral or ethical justification to terminate that life. Once that life is created, it is an independent and sentient being. It would be immoral to kill it unless it is directly posing a threat to your own life (which in the case of god would be impossible).

But we can't place our understanding of things onto God. As a sentient being you place more importance on sentient life (80 odd years of life) because as a non believer that is all there is. Whereas God sees this life in a blink and there is much more value in life after death. To God a person does not lose any life they just go from one form of life to another. So ending this life is just a step. But to an atheist ending someones life has more gravity and therefore moral value.

Seeing as god is all knowing, and he knows exactly how everyone will turn out before they are even born, I can't think of a single scenario where god would be morally justified in killing anyone or anything.

So what if God knew that a particular people were always going to be evil and he warned them to repent but they still went on being evil. In some ways it would be morally wrong to allow that evil to continue as it would harm people especially children. The thing is just because God may be all knowing and powerful does not mean he has or can act on things. The bible says that God has to allow evil to come to its own ends otherwise it cannot be established that evil will always end up causing death and destruction.

But also when you say you cannot think of a single scenario where god would be morally justified in killing anyone or anything whose moral value are you using to determine the truth that God is not justified. If you support subjective morality then there would be many scenarios where people would think it justified that may be different to what you think is morally OK or not.

How can you know all the possible factors involved to confidently say that God does not have a justifiable moral reason for acting the way he does. Especially considering that there will not only be factors associated with your worldview of things but also ones that you cannot know as they are about divine reasons.

As mentioned he was acting in association with bringing about his promise to bring a savior for peoples souls which is not exactly something you or I would know about. Or something an atheists would care about to consider. But this would have to be a factor that has to be taken into consideration to truly know whether God was justified or not. You would have to be God to conclusively say that God has no justification.

 

[pleinmont]

The Biblical god, if they exist, doesn't seem to have any morals if what is said about him in the Bible has an credence.

 

[jayem]

My point is that life does not necessarily begin at conception, because identical twins and triplets come into existence AFTER conception.

And, for the record, the zygote usually enters the uterus at the 16 cell stage, or thereabouts. As these cells continue to divide, they begin to form a ball consisting of a thin outer layer of cells surrounding a central mass of cells. This is the blastocyst, which is what attaches to the uterine wall. The thin outer layer, the trophoblast, becomes the placenta. Only the central cell mass (the embryoblast) becomes the embryo. All this happens 5-7 days after fertilization. So, strictly speaking, not all of a fertilized egg is a person. Part of it becomes the placenta. And until the blastocyst stage, it can’t be determined which cells are the embryo and which are the placenta.

 

[stevevw]

I'm sure Pharaoh was predisposed in some degree to refuse releasing the Hebrews. But there are other passages making it absolutely clear that God was hardening Pharaoh's heart in order to toy with him and demonstrate his power:

Exodus 7:1-3:

Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I make you as God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet. You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. (NASB)

Exodus 10: 1-2:

Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them, and that you may tell in the hearing of your son, and of your grandson, how I made a mockery of the Egyptians and how I performed My signs among them, that you may know that I am the Lord.” ((NASB)

This is a problem some people have when quoting the bible. They only read part of it and therefore do not see the entire story or teaching in context. The fact is the first six times it mentions Pharaoh's heart being hardened during the first 5 plagues it is Pharaoh who hardens his own heart. IE

Exodus 7:13-14 And Pharaoh’s heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the Lord had said. Then the Lord said to Moses, “Pharaoh’s heart is stubborn; he refuses to let the people go.
Exodus 8:15 5 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said.
Exodus 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.
Exodus 9:7 Pharaoh investigated and found that not even one of the animals of the Israelite's had died. Yet his heart was unyielding and he would not let the people go.
Exodus 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.
etc
The Pharaoh didn't believe Moses and when he seen that the plague did come instead of agreeing to let the Israelite's go he resisted again and again until the 6th plague. So the Pharaoh had hardened his own heart and God had known that the Pharaoh was never going to yield and let the people go. It was because the Pharaoh rejected the signs and revelations from God that his heart hardened.

By God revealing himself to Pharaoh because Pharaoh was a sinner with pride and was always going to reject God this was a natural outcome. So in that sense God hardened his heart and that is what the other bible verses mean when they say God hardened his heart. It is a biblical axiom that revelation devoid of illuminating grace hardens sinful hearts.
Why and How did God 'Harden' Pharaoh's Heart?

The fact is the Pharaoh had free will to begin with and chose to reject God and hardened his own heart and therefore has to take responsibility for that. He seen Gods power and still choose to reject him. The rest was inevitable.

What I was illustrating is simply that if you believe God is sovereign and omnipotent, then he can direct your will to align with his plans. God did exactly this in the case of Pharaoh. So getting back to my main point: how can you know that a terminated pregnancy was not ordained by God? Why can't God use abortion as an instrument of his will?

As explained above the Pharaoh still had the choice in the beginning and that is what usually happens. God can give signs and revelations that may help a person see things clearer but it is still up to them to choose to accept God. The saying oh what a tangled web we weave when we practice to deceive sort of fits here. The more you deny the truth the harder it is to see the truth and before long you are trapped in your own denials and lies. It more or less takes away free will.

Also this situation was a one off one where God had to free his people so they could make it to the promised land so that his promise of bringing a Savior could be fulfilled. The Old testament situation with the Israelite's was the establishment of Gods law leading to Christ so was an important period and part of prophesy where God interacted and intervened in situations.

Today we have the spirit of God with us in Christ who represents the truth. I am sure individuals have revelation and and signs and through their conscience can know the truth about whether abortion is right or wrong. The problem is people can also deny the truth, rationalize it away and before to long believe a lie and harden their hearts to God.

In fact people can make a lie sound good and I believe this is what is happening today with secular worldviews about individual rights over all else like people are gods and know best and won't be told what to do or how to do things.

 

[stevevw]

The Biblical god, if they exist, doesn't seem to have any morals if what is said about him in the Bible has an credence.

And by what moral standard do you determine that God has no morals.

 

[Strong in Him]

Here in the UK terminations aren't permitted after 22 weeks gestation.

I thought it was 24 weeks?
Still way too high.

 

[pleinmont]

I would prefer abortion to be carried out in the first twelve weeks of pregnancy, but later only if the mother's life is at risk or there is something wrong with the foetus which means it will not be born alive. However, once a healthy foetus is viable, efforts should be made to try to keep it alive when it is removed.

 

[coffee4u]

I would prefer abortion to be carried out in the first twelve weeks of pregnancy, but later only if the mother's life is at risk or there is something wrong with the foetus which means it will not be born alive. However, once a healthy foetus is viable, efforts should be made to try to keep it alive when it is removed.

Right because tearing the arms and legs off younger foetus's is so much better.

So many people are so keen to tell mothers to abort their baby because something is wrong or it won't live. Why and who do you believe this helps?

 

[pleinmont]

Right because tearing the arms and legs off younger foetus's is so much better.

So many people are so keen to tell mothers to abort their baby because something is wrong or it won't live. Why and who do you believe this helps?

It helps a woman who accidently got pregnant and has no wish to have a child.

 

[coffee4u]

It helps a woman who accidently got pregnant and has no wish to have a child.

Well, that changed.
You said

or there is something wrong with the foetus which means it will not be born alive.

This is the part I am referring to, you said nothing about accidental pregnancy or unwanted babies.

To me accidental pregnancy/unwanted pregnancy and abortion is the very worst form of abortion. Get rid of unwanted cats and kids, just kill them off. Doesn't matter that the baby is a human being, possibly even of the opposite gender to the mother, in this society the unborn has zero rights and the irresponsible mother has all of them. Adoption should be the standard. So what if she doesn't want a child, the baby didn't ask to be conceived. she should have thought about that before getting pregnant, should have been more responsible in the first place. The unborn should have as many rights as anybody else. This is where the government should be helping. Programs in place to make sure the mother has proper medical care, food and a roof over her head if she is in poverty. I'm sure if these women had to go through 9 months and give birth half of them wouldn't get pregnant in the first place or it would be the first and last time. But no these unwanted babies are vacuum sucked to bits and placed in the garbage while the mother goes off and gets pregnant again.