The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[Zachm531]

And the question I asked, could I have a direct answer, please?

Sure, read Galatians 5:4 its pretty clear

 

[Zachm531]

And the question I asked, could I have a direct answer, please?

I didnt write Galatians, Paul did

 

[topher694]

where is the slander, and where did you get the idea that's all I seem to be able to contribute.? I'm still waiting on proof of the "twisting" as well, Or was it all false claims?

So, I had a bit of inspiration so I went back and looked at your last 20 posts. I excluded political threads and posts directed at me. Here's what I found:
Threads: 4

Accusations: 11
Negative/wrong assumptions, twisting other people's words: 12
Demands: 15
Ridicule: 13
Slander: 7
Claims that people's negative reaction to the above help your case: 2

Scripture references: 2 (with 1 serving only to validate your demands for proof)
Personal contribution to the topic: 2
Personally derived mention of God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit in a positive light: 2
Statement of support or agreement with another: 1 (to an atheist referencing an atheist point)

I'm sure I missed some on both sides of the ledger, but I think the ratio speaks for itself.

Titus 3:9-11 - 9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

Can't beat first hand proof.

 

[Josheb]

The claim is most churches today support grace-only, easy-believism, etc.

Yes, I understand that is your position. I see no evidence to support that claim. Making baseless claims makes you culpable of bad practice, not the accused. And if there is no such evidence then you've just born false witness against the body of Christ and, again, made yourself culpable for bad practice. And, logically, that would make the accusations hypocrtical in anture and, again, make you all the more culpable for unscriptural practices. Lastly, the term the NT testament uses to label a person who unjustly and inaccurately divides the body of Christ is "devil." Do please go ahead and look up the literal meaning of that word, although I suspect if you're retired and an old Christian then you already know what I have just said it true and correct.

So we see the matter at hand is really quite important.

Can you prove, "Most churches today teach false doctrines..." Can you in fact prove most churches teach grace alone and "easy-believism"?

A lot of people on the internet claim this...

Great Show me three examples that are necessarily representative of "most churches."

Or amend the accusations asserted in this op so that they more accurately reflect what is actually happening in congregations claiming to be the body of Christ.

Personally, I live in a city of 100,000 in BC where most churches believe...

Personal anecdotal arguments are fallacious and they are not in any way a valid argument nor justification for indicting "most churches."

Furthermore, the matter of "grace alone," and "you cannot lose your salvation," are not the same thing. If that is what you mean to be arguing then you are arguing a logical fallacy known as the false equivalence.

This is important because the Holy Spirit does not argue irrationally. The Holy Spirit does not prompt, inspire, nor empower such practices. The Holy Spirit doesn't prompt the adopted sons and daughters of the Almighty to make baseless accusations against the ekklesia, It does not prompt disobedience to God's word, nor does it prompt hypocrisy, and it most definitely does not bear the fruit of deviltry.

These are works of the flesh.


So again I point out to you the importance of this op and the need for you to either provide evidence proving the accusation true and correct or to amend the accusation so that is more accurately reflects the truth and reality because most churches do not teach false doctrines and most churches do not teach grace alone and most churches do not teach easy believism, and all anyone has to do to verify what I just said it to examine the leading theologians of Christendom and the doctrinal statements of the various mainstream and orthodox denominations. The fact is despite the divisions within the body of Christ we have much more consensus than we have disparity.

And I can eivdence my position, BCsenior.


Can you provide evidence proving the accusation of this op? Can you and will you provide evidence for the claim most churches teach false doctrine? If so, then please do so.

Thx

 

[ChetSinger]

The claim is most churches today support grace-only, easy-believism, etc.

If you're referring to OSAS then I don't believe this claim is true. By my count, most denominations do not hold to that belief.

Afaik the churches that do include Presbyterian, Reformed, American Baptists, and various independent Bible churches here in the US (who often have Baptist roots).

The churches that do not include Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Methodist, Anabaptist, Charismatic, and Pentecostal.

While I could be wrong regarding some of these I think you're using a brush that's too broad. If you replaced "most" with "some" then I'd be more (but not completely) in agreement with you.

 

[Zachm531]

Galatians 2:21
Galatians 5:4

 

[Chris V++]

Matt 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

So answer a question for me, after reading that, please explain how you can possibly think we will be heaven bound if we don't do what Christ says we must do, or be sent away to eternal punishment?

Do you not believe Christ? I'm honestly confused how that can be ignored in favor of "faith only".

Since I don't believe the way you insinuate I believe, and I don't know of any churches that preach we are supposed to ignore Matthew 25 and not do good works, nor any BAC s who believe that way, and since I also don't know of any churches passing out these licenses to sin (despite the claims that they are everywhere) I don't have to answer your deliberately misleading and deceptive straw man argument question.

Do as you will, as I know some love their easy way and wild horses couldn't drag them away from having their cake and eating it too. They simply have what they want over what God wants...but taking others down with them with their deceptions?....very bad idea.

Do what 'as I will' exactly? You won't find me telling people they have a license to sin, and can 'have their cake and eat it to,' since I am not deceived in that way, despite your deceptive attempts to paint me in that light.

When I asked about confession and penance that's because a lot of Christians are taught confession and penance, that's not something I just made up you know. A poster in this very thread stated the apostles and their successors were given the authority to forgive sins, which implies no forgiveness without said sacrament of confession. In that world view, you yourself aren't forgiven since you don't partake in that sacrament.

 

[Blade]

Hey "B".. hope you don't mind that. I like Psa 103 parts yet ALL should be looked at but "who forgives all your sins and heals all your diseases,"who redeems your life from the pit and crowns you with love and compassion,"" He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.""2 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us." On and on.

Thats the OT. We born into sin "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.". We've never seen God or Heaven. We know nothing about true grace mercy love forgiveness glory power. We have fallen angels demons that work 24/7 against us. Then that serpent bronze on a stick held up so anyone that looks on it is healed. Seems Moses tosses a stick on the ground and turns into a serpent/snake. Christ that knew no sin became what?

God “ made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him”. This is meat. To show people JESUS is lord and to repent PRAISE GOD! But I don't know of any Church any forum where they talk as if they can do any sin and still go to heaven. And forgive me but where and how does one come up with "most Churches"? I truly ask from my heart. In the past I knew a Church that preached this.

Grace only. Can't find it now. Yet it was not like any Church I have ever seen. Well what ever you needed? Asked for? They freely gave. This won't be ADDED to how we talk about "grace only". Yet its a fact. I talked to the pastor to make sure. That does not mean make the right in what they teach. Does my your church do this We know the reasons WHY we wont huh. Yet this grace only did. What they believed was freely given.. they freely gave. Not defending them. I share it because I just remembered this.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Sure, read Galatians 5:4 its pretty clear

Cop out, but it's always the same, they evade the questions that force them to see the truth.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I didnt write Galatians, Paul did

And?

Did someone actually claim you did??

 

[Kenny'sID]

So, I had a bit of inspiration so I went back and looked at your last 20 posts. I excluded political threads and posts directed at me. Here's what I found:
Threads: 4

Accusations: 11
Negative/wrong assumptions, twisting other people's words: 12
Demands: 15
Ridicule: 13
Slander: 7
Claims that people's negative reaction to the above help your case: 2

Scripture references: 2 (with 1 serving only to validate your demands for proof)
Personal contribution to the topic: 2
Personally derived mention of God, Jesus or the Holy Spirit in a positive light: 2
Statement of support or agreement with another: 1 (to an atheist referencing an atheist point)

I'm sure I missed some on both sides of the ledger, but I think the ratio speaks for itself.

Titus 3:9-11 - 9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

Can't beat first hand proof.

Please follow through and lets see if you're being deceitful or not... post your actual findings and not just claims/opinion.

Oh, and how many "Accusations" did you just make? lol, as if I ever claimed I didn't make them. Be sure to quote them all individually so we can use the pointer to see them in context.

And thank you for the blatant example of your attempt at shooting the messenger when you can't deal with the message.

 

[Kenny'sID]

I don't have to answer your deliberately misleading and deceptive straw man argument question.

How was it misleading/deceptive? I get it, hardly the first time someone copped out on answering the questions they know show them the truth. I also get that I'm supposed to answer all your questions as I did, and you don't have to follow suit,,,that's fair, isn't it?

Do what 'as I will' exactly?

Keep believing as you do.

When I asked about confession and penance that's because a lot of Christians are taught confession and penance, that's not something I just made up you know. A poster in this very thread stated the apostles and their successors were given the authority to forgive sins, which implies no forgiveness without said sacrament of confession. In that world view, you yourself aren't forgiven since you don't partake in that sacrament.

That wasn't me.

 

[Chris V++]

I get it, hardly the first time someone copped out on answering the questions they know show them the truth.

You asked me how is it that i can just ignore Matthew 25? Do you know what a loaded question is? That is a loaded question. I did answer you ,by the way, in the way I phrased my response. I think this is a waste of our time. I don't know what your agenda is, but if I had to speculate I'd guess it accords with the agenda of some relatively small denomination that claims One True Church status.

 

[topher694]

Please follow through and lets see if you're being deceitful or not... post your actual findings and not just claims/opinion.

Oh, and how many "Accusations" did you just make? lol, as if I ever claimed I didn't make them. Be sure to quote them all individually so we can use the pointer to see them in context.

And thank you for the blatant example of your attempt at shooting the messenger when you can't deal with the message.

Predictable.

Given what I outlined, why in the world would I engage in your fantasies? It's like someone who has been shown to be a scam artist saying, "no I'm not, give me your money and I'll prove I'm not"... Pass

The difference between what I am doing and what you constantly do is this: you twist and accuse people who are trying to engage in the thread's topic without engaging yourself. You twist their words and then demand they prove something they didn't say. When they push back you ridicule them and claim victory. I am pointing out that behavior.

To anyone who wants to see the evidence for themselves, simply go back and see how many times people respond to him by saying, "that's not what I said" or some variation. It's remarkable how many times it happens. And what is the common response to that? Either completely ignoring it and continuing to push a false narrative, or, several times I saw him actually say something akin to, "I think that's exactly what you meant" basically accusing them of being liars and that he knows what they meant better than them.

Yeah it is a clear pattern of poor behavior and no amount of goading is going to get me to feed it.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Predictable.

Given what I outlined, why in the world would I engage in your fantasies? It's like someone who has been shown to be a scam artist saying, "no I'm not, give me your money and I'll prove I'm not"... Pass

The difference between what I am doing and what you constantly do is this: you twist and accuse people who are trying to engage in the thread's topic without engaging yourself. You twist their words and then demand they prove something they didn't say. When they push back you ridicule them and claim victory. I am pointing out that behavior.

To anyone who wants to see the evidence for themselves, simply go back and see how many times people respond to him by saying, "that's not what I said" or some variation. It's remarkable how many times it happens. And what is the common response to that? Either completely ignoring it and continuing to push a false narrative, or, several times I saw him actually say something akin to, "I think that's exactly what you meant" basically accusing them of being liars and that he knows what they meant better than them.

Yeah it is a clear pattern of poor behavior and no amount of goading is going to get me to feed it.

I'll take that as admission you cannot back up your accusation list as I asked you to.

Thanks just the same.

 

[Kenny'sID]

You asked me how is it that i can just ignore Matthew 25? Do you know what a loaded question is? That is a loaded question. I did answer you ,by the way, in the way I phrased my response. I think this is a waste of our time. I don't know what your agenda is, but if I had to speculate I'd guess it accords with the agenda of some relatively small denomination that claims One True Church status.

My agenda was to simply answer the questions you asked of me as honestly as possible, and I asked a perfectly legitimate question of you.

 

[topher694]

I'll take that as admission you cannot back up your accusation list as I asked you to.

Thanks just the same.

LOL, here's my money.

The proof is everywhere. People have told you over and over and you just ignore them or accuse them of lying, why would this be any different?

Can't beat first hand proof.

You know another option would be for you to admit to and repent of your poor treatment of others.

 

[Kenny'sID]

LOL, here's my money.

The proof is everywhere. People have told you over and over and you just ignore them or accuse them of lying, why would this be any different?

Can't beat first hand proof.

You know another option would be for you to admit to and repent of your poor treatment of others.

Yet you refused to show me the proof.

Will there be anything else?

 

[topher694]

Yet you refused to show me the proof.

Will there be anything else?

Go back and look at all the times people told you, "that's not what I meant". There are plenty. Is that too hard for you?

Me not holding your hand and doing it for you doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

[Chris V++]

My agenda was to simply answer the questions you asked of me as honestly as possible, and I asked a perfectly legitimate question of you.

Oh, then depart from me, for I am an evil man. I sinned at least twice in my mind reading your responses insofar as it is a sin to assess a fellow person as a duplicitous hairsplitter.