The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[timothyu]

However, Hr freely gives it to all who ask.

True . He gave us resurrection and the Kingdom even though he didn't have to. And it is freely offered to those who repent of the world of man and ask if they might follow His governance instead.

 

[Beanieboy]

The claim is most churches today support grace-only, easy-believism, etc.

A lot of people on the internet claim this,
and many travelling evangelists return after visiting churches
and report their amazement at the deplorable condition of the churches!

Personally, I live in a city of 100,000 in BC where most churches
believe one cannot lose their salvation, i.e. grace lasts forever, etc.
Truly, IMO, most of them are Kindergarden churches.

If the bold is true, why all of the dire warnings in the NT?
Are they bluffs, exaggerations, lies even?

And no one here wants to see these dire warnings that I keep talking about.
IMO, they want to remain in their never-never land
... believing that God's grace will get them through!
This is NOT what the NT teaches at all.

And as I said, if we do not love our neighbor, we are a goat, not a sheep, no matter how many of the commandments you keep. In fact, with the focus on sin, so often it is what to refrain from, rather than love, mercy, hope, forgiveness, which requires the follower to live Christ.

At judgement, when asked what I did with my life, I don’t want to say that I followed God’s commandments - I didn’t kill anyone, not one!, didn’t steal anything, didn’t cheat on my wife....
I will be saying how I dedicated my life to bettering the lives of others in need, such as teaching in a school that helped low income students get into good paying hospital positions. I’m very glad I had the opportunity to experience change in people’s lives.

And I’m sorry. I’m still not getting it.
If one is a Christian, they will ask for the forgiveness of sins, and then are commanded to forgive their neighbor who sins against them. Then they will follow the commandment to love their neighbor as themselves, and see all people, including their enemy as their neighbor, and love them.

But if someone receives God’s grace of forgiveness, they aren’t going to say, “Meh, I can sin all I want now!” If they had that attitude, they wouldn’t be coming to church in the first place. If they want to sin, why would they want to go to church?

But what I’m suspecting is that what you are dancing around without saying it directly is that GLBT people are sinning, so if a Church receives them and tells them they have grace, and is also affirming, blessing their relationships, that the GLBT person will fall from grace.

Am I right? The OCD of Christianity?

But I would argue that I think it is a testament of the GLBTQ community if anyone is still standing as a Christian, because quite honestly, the community is demonized, told they are sinning for loving another person of the same sex, quoted Leviticus that they should be killed, told that they are not welcome in the Church, or told they are welcome in the church but cannot become a member, and some, but I don’t find it is a majority, are affirming.

So, despite being pushed away, there are those that are still following the Lord, and some of us have endured the most spiritual, emotional and verbal violence from believers who claim to follow Jesus’ commandment to love their neighbor as themselves.

Would you mind, however, explaining what each of the 10 commands means? Ie, what is “being righteous”? How is that different than obeying the commandments?

I would like to add one comment because it has stuck with me. I was listening to a video where a woman raised in Westboro Baptist church was being interviewed, and was asked why she had the beliefs she did.

She said that she was taught that they were to love God. When most people say “to love,” they mean to care for another, support, enocourage, care about the wellbeing, help, etc. The Westboro Church’s understanding of love was simply to obey - obey the law. And so when they went out into the street, their way of “loving people” was to demand that they obey the law as well.

This would be a clear instance of the “if I have not love, I have nothing” passages

 

[Zachm531]

Most churches today teach false doctrines for several reasons:
ignorance, unbelief, for popularity, for financial benefit, etc.
Only a few churches are teaching correct doctrine these days.
There is more to correct doctrine than “Jesus is Lord and Savior”.
Many Spirit-filled Christians are warning, “The church is fast asleep!”

Grace-only, cheap-grace, hyper-grace, easy-believism …
are all called antinomianism! This is the notion that a one-time
justification saves … apart from sanctification. But, this is an
incomplete understanding of God’s wonderful free gift of grace!

The problem with easy-believism is that it allows
those who are living in hypocrisy, disobedience, and sin
(i.e. those who are NOT walking in obedience)
to live comfortably with a false assurance of salvation!
This leads to the tragedy described in Matthew 7:21-23 (for example).

“… some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches,
saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives.
… they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.” (Jude 4-5, NLT)

NOTE: We are talking here about believers who have received the Holy Spirit.

There are at least 10 NT verses for each of the following truths

Believers prove they have true saving faith:
1 -- by their obedience
2 -- by practicing righteousness
3 -- by living holy lives
4 -- by having a healthy fear of God
5 -- by repenting of their occasional sins
6 –- by overcoming sin, the world, Satan, persecution
7 –- by enduring in the faith to the end of their lives

Re: #4 … If people are believing and trusting in grace-only, cheap-grace,
hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc., HOW can they be fearing God?

So, all of these verses PROVE the road to eternal life is indeed narrow,
and believers are responsible for playing their part in their salvation!

Or, shall we view these verses as merely bluffs, exaggerations, lies even?

Initially, through His grace, God gives to new believers:
Jesus’ righteousness, redemption, reconciliation, etc. and salvation.
However, this grace/salvation is NOT guaranteed to last forever!
Because ONLY their old-past-former sins have been forgiven (2 Peter 1:9).
And because NT verses warn about the possibility of losing salvation.

Some believers became “estranged from Christ”
… they had “fallen from grace” (Galatians 5:4).

Some believers are “of those who draw back to perdition” (Hebrews 10:39).

And there are many more warning verses.

Kind of funny that you would use Galatians 5:4 to try and disprove in Grace by faith alone salvation:
"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace."

 

[timothyu]

"You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace."

Isn't that simply saying you who reject the Kingdom?

 

[Kenny'sID]

So what works must these grace only people do to earn salvation? Are these good deed type works like caring for the poor,

The deception in your post is "earn salvation" when you most likely have never heard any of us claim we do that, or that it can even be done, and if you have, can you please point it out? It's no more then being obedient to God that saved us out of grace and "showing" we have the faith instead of just claiming it then doing as we like, when doing as we like is not biblical, and I'll show you in a sec. Hint, the Goats did as they like.

Also, I personally would be very careful with any deceptions, especially when we know they're just that. Word to the wise...If those deceptions end up costing someone their salvation, someone is going to be extremely angry on the day of reckoning. Do as you will, as I know some love their easy way and wild horses couldn't drag them away from having their cake and eating it too. They simply have what they want over what God wants...but taking others down with them with their deceptions?....very bad idea.

Are these good deed type works like caring for the poor,

Yes, surely you're familiar with the following:

Matt 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

So answer a question for me, after reading that, please explain how you can possibly think we will be heaven bound if we don't do what Christ says we must do, or be sent away to eternal punishment?

Do you not believe Christ? I'm honestly confused how that can be ignored in favor of "faith only".

, or are these church sacrament based works, like attending confession and performing penance?

I showed clear scripture to answer your first question, but I know of no scripture whatsoever that claims we must do that, do you? See, it's as simple as, is it biblical or not?

I find it hard to believe that anyone has managed to just stop sinning

Not certain why that even belongs in this conversation. Assuming you mean 100%, more question, who said that was ever going to happen or if it was necessary for salvation? And all these are questions I expect you to answer since I answered yours...fair enough?

I personally have cut my sin drastically, and instead of the old way, of always being up for sin, planning it and such, for instance, planing to go to the bar this weekend to pick up women, I don't do that, at all. Sin out of temptation is very forgivable, and even the "for instance" I mentioned is forgivable but we must repent, yet if something goes wrong along the way, we still, by the grace of God, have available forgiveness through Christ who paid the price for that sin.

It's as simple as a parent expecting their child to make reasonable effort to be good, and if they do, just as a parent would, God will be happy to forgive us when we do wrong.

I'd be surprised any bible reading Christian doesn't know these basics, that is unless they have been stripped away and replaced with something easier. Or, unless one chooses to confuse the basics they know are not confusing and biblically sound, in order to defend something that requires implementing confusion.

 

[HatGuy]

You haven't noticed that all of the hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, flooding, etc. are escalating.
Any idea how many Americans have lost their homes lately?

These are not prophecies, but realities!
They have been sent as warnings to repent.
And to prepare for extremely difficult times.

Next up ... earthquakes ... more lives and homes lost.
Repent and Prepare!

I repent daily and am well prepared for the coming of the Lord. Thank you.

In the meantime, your message is not gospel. Telling people to get their act together is the old, old human message of self righteousness. Is Jesus' death even necessary in your theology? Why did he die if all we have to do is just stop sinning and shape up?

 

[Kenny'sID]

I repent daily and am well prepared for the coming of the Lord. Thank you.

In the meantime, your message is not gospel. Telling people to get their act together is the old, old human message of self righteousness. Is Jesus' death even necessary in your theology? Why did he die if all we have to do is just stop sinning and shape up?

Who said we could stop sinning 100% or if that was necessary for salvation? If you can't answer that, and show us where that was so much as even indicated, it's just a deception/not true, exactly what is needed to uphold your end of this.

 

[HatGuy]

Who said we could stop sinning 100% or if that was necessary for salvation? If you can't answer that, and show us where that was so much as even indicated, it's just a deception/not true, exactly what is needed to uphold your end of this.

I never claimed that. I asked a question. However, without actually preaching Christ (the OP doesn't) my point is the message is useless and is construed as a self righteous message. Whether that is the intention it does not matter. And thus, as my posts have stated, it is an ineffective message because it isn't the full story and just leaves someone with Law, not with gospel.

I have no trouble telling people to repent of their sins. The trouble is the OP, and several other posts, has said nothing of Christ's sacrifice.

 

[Zachm531]

Isn't that simply saying you who reject the Kingdom?

Nope, if you try to be justified by the law ie through observance and obedience of works, you have fallen from grace. Repentance of sin comes with a true faith in Christ BUT works dont equal salvation. By Grace through faith does ephesians 2:8-10

 

[Kenny'sID]

I never claimed that. I asked a question.

It's going to be a bit tough having a conversation from the start if you're going to play games. Your question inferred a claim absolutely. But suit yourself, if that frees you from answering the question, good enough I suppose.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Nope, if you try to be justified by the law ie through observance and obedience of works, you have fallen from grace.

Who is doing that?

Are you telling us if we are obedient to God, we lose salvation?

 

[topher694]

I never claimed that. I asked a question.

He twists people's words all the time in order to make wild accusations... It's his MO, my advice would be to ignore it.

 

[HatGuy]

It's going to be a bit tough having a conversation from the start if you're going to play games. Your question inferred a claim absolutely. But suit yourself, if that frees you from answering the question, good enough I suppose.

If you're going to be so antagonistic from the start, then no problem, don't engage.

 

[Kenny'sID]

If you're going to be so antagonistic from the start, then no problem, don't engage.

Ok, I'll just assume then, that you were making false claims, the reason you evaded the question. Which of course makes my point, once again... It takes false claims to defend false doctrine...never fails.

 

[timothyu]

Nope, if you try to be justified by the law ie through observance and obedience of works, you have fallen from grace.

The Gospel of the Kingdom doesn't say that. it states we must reject the self serving nature of man for the will of God, putting His will before our own, and understanding why our ways are useless compared to His.

I have no trouble telling people to repent of their sins. The trouble is the OP, and several other posts, has said nothing of Christ's sacrifice.

Christ's sacrifice opened the door to the Kingdom, a second life we had no chance of before. He was the first resurrection without which none of us would be eligible. What did He do? Nothing of His own accord but only put the will of the Father before His own. The opposite of the Garden , the adversary and mankind.

 

[HatGuy]

Ok, I'll just assume then, that you were making false claims, the reason you evaded the question. Which of course makes my point, once again... It takes false claims to defend false doctrine...never fails.

Assuming is probably the reason why you've come guns blazing at me without asking questions or seeking to clarify my position. From nowhere you accused me of dishonesty.

I'm not sure if you read my posts on this thread. You'll see I'm trying to encourage effectiveness not doctrinal agreement on everything.

The gospel is the power of salvation. We should all learn how to present it better. The OP does not encourage faith, only fear.

 

[Kenny'sID]

He twists people's words all the time in order to make wild accusations... It's his MO, my advice would be to ignore it.

Whose words did I twist to bring on that accusation, and please point me to the post?

 

[topher694]

Assuming is probably the reason why you've come guns blazing at me without asking questions or seeking to clarify my position. From nowhere you accused me of dishonesty.

See what I mean? The only thing he seems to be able to contribute is slander, accusations, ridicule and demands.

 

[Neogaia777]

If you try, or think, that somehow, your own will, your own self-efforts, or works, or "whatever", saves you, or somehow get's you keeping or maintaining your salvation, so you don't lose it, etc, you have been greatly deceived, for that, only makes sin much, much worse, and if you don't "believe me", then just take a good hard long look at yourself in the mirror and see what you have become, and how far you have fallen, etc, or look at yourself through another's eyes, maybe one of the "supposed worse sinners than you" that you would judge maybe... You have made yourself, and those who would follow you, "twice a candidate for hell over them", and you are very much blind, and are very much so sorrily deceived, if you don't see that...

If my own will, or my own self efforts, or whatever, is what saves me, or is what makes me keep or maintain my salvation, then I want nothing to do with it, I'd rather not be saved at all if that is going to be the case (which it's not, and is never not, but, anyway) (just saying that to make a point really)... (if it's not all God, and I mean "all God", then it is dirty, very very dirty, stinking, filthy reeking stinking, filthy rags in God eyes and sight, disgusting and revolting to Him, etc, "reeks to high heaven", as they say, a stench and offensive odor in His nostrils) (anyway)...

If you guys do not see how far you have fallen, and how you are twice as much a candidate for hell over so very many others, how your sin is much much worse, (like I said, just look in the mirror or see yourself through another's eyes) Anyway, If you guys do not see how far you have fallen, and how you are twice as much a candidate for hell over so very many others, how your sin is much much worse, then you are very much blind and I feel very sorry for you...

Especially since the Bible says it is impossible to renew you to repentance again, not even realizing that your the ones who need it the most... Sad, just so very sad...

I tried it your way, but then had to take a good hard long look at what I had become, and I had become much worse than others, and while I'm not sinless right now, I thank God that He did the work in delivering me from "those ways", and adopted me into Grace, for I am much, much better off now because of it... and even though I am not sinless yet, I am much much better off now, ever since I abandoned that den and nest of hypocrisy that was doomed and destined straight for hell...

Just like the Pharisees in the Bible, no different, sad...

Beware the leaven of the Pharisees, when they make a proselyte (follower) they make them even twice as much a candidate for hell then even they themselves already are, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Kenny'sID]

Assuming is probably the reason why you've come guns blazing at me without asking questions or seeking to clarify my position. From nowhere you accused me of dishonesty.

You accused me of being antagonistic from the start. can you take a look at my first post towards you and show me where that happened, and also where I accused you of being dishonest, unless it was a fact?

And if you want to try to tell me this....

Why did he die if all we have to do is just stop sinning and shape up?

....is not you claiming we said we must stop sinning, fine, but I still don't buy it, and what's more I think you know that's exactly what you were claiming.

I did nothing but call you on a false comment, and then you defended it by not answering to the charge, but trying to make me the problem when I did nothing out of line that I see.

Then after you attempted to twist that comment, someone pops in and accused me of twisting, someone who as of yet, and although I asked for proof, hasn't shown me where I ever did that.

And all that is fine, it actually helps to make my case every time it's done. Again, it takes some type of deception to defend a deception. Anyway, just something I find interesting.

See what I mean? The only thing he seems to be able to contribute is slander, accusations, ridicule and demands.

where is the slander, and where did you get the idea that's all I seem to be able to contribute.? I'm still waiting on proof of the "twisting" as well, Or was it all false claims?