James Disproves Free Will

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chilehed

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Pelagianism...
There must be a reason why you can't answer a simple question, and are trying to change the subject.

So then you admit that "free will = you trust in yourself to operate the machinery, not Christ" is something that isn't in the Bible, that you made it up.

So: did Adam and Eve have free-will before the fall? Did they have the ability to choose either good or evil, without experiencing any compulsion towards either or limitation on being able to make the choice?
 
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section9+1

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God operates on a completely different kind of economy from ours. He is not us. He is the Creator. If you can do so, this mental exercise might provide some clarity: Consider the fact that he is timeless --therefore, what he spoke into existence is a finished product, DONE. What happens within time, a perspective we are subject to, is what it took (takes) to accomplish that finished product, including all our lives and the Life, Death and Resurrection of Christ. It would be a bit silly to say, then, that he set things in motion just to find out what would happen.

But beyond all that, Scripture is clear that he will complete what he began, and that none can oppose him (with any strength).

Yes he has a purpose and he is culling humanity. But if he does it with predetermined results, then there is no point to doing it at all. Just zap all the saved into heaven instantly and don't even bother creating anyone else. And certainly skip all the meaningless history of mankind.
 
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Clete

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“But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.” James 3:8 (KJV 1900)
Can I assume that you take the word "tame" to mean "control completely"?

If that's the case, then I doubt that you've tamed your dog, nevermind your tongue. If that isn't the case then the passage you cite does not prove your case. In fact, it would tacitly argue against it.

Can I expect a response to my previous post or are most posts just sort of left to stand on there own on this site?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Yes he has a purpose and he is culling humanity. But if he does it with predetermined results, then there is no point to doing it at all. Just zap all the saved into heaven instantly and don't even bother creating anyone else. And certainly skip all the meaningless history of mankind.

Let me take you to the alternative. IF God exists, that is.

If God exists, then everything comes from him. According to the more poetic astrophysicists "the seeds" from which everything that exists now were "planted" at the big bang, or from whatever resulted in the big bang. I.e. everything we see now is a caused effect, unless, perhaps, the First Cause can be identified or "seen" in some sense. It alone is not caused. "Chance" plays no part in anything; in spite of modern astro-poetry, things do not simply pop in and out of existence: all things are caused that are not the first cause.

You, by negating First Cause and the law of cause and effect, have invoked the power of chance, which is a logical fail.
 
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jerry kelso

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“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)
But we sin occasionally in deed.

davel,

1. You are missing the point.
First, I never said we could tame the tongue all the time.
I said we can overcome and tame the tongue with the power of God.
However, we can choose freely not to rely on God and not be able to tame our tongue in different situations.

2. By nature the tongue cannot be tamed.
By nature sinners don’t tame the tongue but they can tame it at times by the power of a freewill choice.
Murders are not good in holding up the value of a life. But it doesn’t mean they can’t do anything good.

3. Since we can have self control which is a fruit of the Spirit and we can overcome by the power of God the tongue can be tamed when we make a freewill choice to trust and obey God.
God is not going to force you to choose to trust him or not, otherwise it is not true love, for his program with free will agents has to be able to choose freely for we are not robots, but creative beings who God gavels brains to be able to understand intelligence information and the power of free will choice. Jerry Kelso
Jerry Kelso
 
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section9+1

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Let me take you to the alternative. IF God exists, that is.

If God exists, then everything comes from him. According to the more poetic astrophysicists "the seeds" from which everything that exists now were "planted" at the big bang, or from whatever resulted in the big bang. I.e. everything we see now is a caused effect, unless, perhaps, the First Cause can be identified or "seen" in some sense. It alone is not caused. "Chance" plays no part in anything; in spite of modern astro-poetry, things do not simply pop in and out of existence: all things are caused that are not the first cause.

You, by negating First Cause and the law of cause and effect, have invoked the power of chance, which is a logical fail.
This sounds like, If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with BS. Chance could be built into the plan.
 
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JacksBratt

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Slave of satan until God saves you.
Yep, and free will on both sides of the battle.

Again, you are confusing "Saved by works" with "free will" and confusing "Slave to sin" with "free will" to turn from it.

Without "Free will" we would not be able to make the choice to turn from our sin....We would also not be able to make the choice to follow the nudgings of the Holy Spirit in any work for God that is being asked of us..

A sinner can choose to turn from sin or reject Christ and remain in sin.

A saved person has chosen to submit to Christ and accept the free gift of salvation.

A missionary can choose to go into the mission field that God has willed and called them to.... or.... do what they want.... God will bring glory to both but more glory would be won for God if they followed His will for their ministry.


Free will follows us from sinner to saved to death.
 
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JacksBratt

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= you are the savior. Ch

= you are the rock star, Christ is your roadie.
I do not see any of this... no connection at all to these equations.... and free will.

You just keep saying "equals this" and "equals that"... but none have anything to do with the free will we have our entire lives.
 
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Mark Quayle

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davel,

1. You are missing the point.
First, I never said we could tame the tongue all the time.
I said we can overcome and tame the tongue with the power of God.
However, we can choose freely not to rely on God and not be able to tame our tongue in different situations.

2. By nature the tongue cannot be tamed.
By nature sinners don’t tame the tongue but they can tame it at times by the power of a freewill choice.
Murders are not good in holding up the value of a life. But it doesn’t mean they can’t do anything good.

3. Since we can have self control which is a fruit of the Spirit and we can overcome by the power of God the tongue can be tamed when we make a freewill choice to trust and obey God.
God is not going to force you to choose to trust him or not, otherwise it is not true love, for his program with free will agents has to be able to choose freely for we are not robots, but creative beings who God gavels brains to be able to understand intelligence information and the power of free will choice. Jerry Kelso
Jerry Kelso
1. ok
2. ok
3. "FORCE"??? Does CAUSE mean FORCE? The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. (Proverbs 21) --Yet it is the king that decides in accordance with his heart. Forced?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Yes he has a purpose and he is culling humanity. But if he does it with predetermined results, then there is no point to doing it at all. Just zap all the saved into heaven instantly and don't even bother creating anyone else. And certainly skip all the meaningless history of mankind.
Can you not see that what to us looks like "predetermined" is entirely OUR viewpoint? God spoke his Creation into existence, and it was done --a finished product. What he has made is (was) immediately complete in Heaven. Yet WE have to see it as time-defined. God's doings are not in the same category as our definitions for them.

I understand that doesn't help our logical accounting here, but maybe it can give some measure of perspective. Predetermined does not have to mean the cause-and-effect sequence we see during this temporal existence is not real. We DO make choices --it is ludicrous to claim otherwise-- but those choices are always within bounds, constraints, influences, and the nature of the chooser.

If you wish to call that robot-ism, so be it. If you wish, like some on here, to call such a God evil, do so and face the consequences of your recklessness. But to claim that a choice is not real unless it is hands-off by God is logically pretentious. The whole nature of God-With-Us is that only by Him is anything we do of any substance.

Remember the parable of the talents: The master gives three servants a sum of money each, and two do well investing theirs, but the third buries his. When the master returns he asks each to account for what they have done. He commends the first two, but the third says, "I knew you are a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed." Compare that with Jonah's witness to the goodness of God; even in his anger he said, "I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity." Which is your view? Don't claim that the God who created for a purpose that he will complete is a robot maker.
 
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Mark Quayle

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This sounds like, If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with BS. Chance could be built into the plan.
Again, there is logically no such thing as chance. Even the best philosophers and scientists agree, it is all cause-and-effect. "Chance", as one of them says, is just a placeholder for "I don't know".

Logically, chance is a self-defeating proposition. Chance cannot cause, nor determine, anything.
 
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1Reformedman

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Can you not see that what to us looks like "predetermined" is entirely OUR viewpoint? God spoke his Creation into existence, and it was done --a finished product. What he has made is (was) immediately complete in Heaven. Yet WE have to see it as time-defined. God's doings are not in the same category as our definitions for them.

I understand that doesn't help our logical accounting here, but maybe it can give some measure of perspective. Predetermined does not have to mean the cause-and-effect sequence we see during this temporal existence is not real. We DO make choices --it is ludicrous to claim otherwise-- but those choices are always within bounds, constraints, influences, and the nature of the chooser.

If you wish to call that robot-ism, so be it. If you wish, like some on here, to call such a God evil, do so and face the consequences of your recklessness. But to claim that a choice is not real unless it is hands-off by God is logically pretentious. The whole nature of God-With-Us is that only by Him is anything we do of any substance.

Remember the parable of the talents: The master gives three servants a sum of money each, and two do well investing theirs, but the third buries his. When the master returns he asks each to account for what they have done. He commends the first two, but the third says, "I knew you are a hard man, reaping where you have not sown, and gathering where you have not scattered seed." Compare that with Jonah's witness to the goodness of God; even in his anger he said, "I knew that you are a gracious and compassionate God, slow to anger and abounding in love, a God who relents from sending calamity." Which is your view? Don't claim that the God who created for a purpose that he will complete is a robot maker.

its only free will proponents who claim IF reformed theology were true that would make us robots. Its an utter lack of understanding the whole counsel of God's will. Jesus was very clear the father has already given to him all those He intends to save John 6:39
 
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Cis.jd

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Strangely enough, I can't convert you and you can't convert yourself. Only God can do that. All your attendance to precepts and tenets will not save you, nor will your free will.

When God changes you, the question of your eternal state becomes, instead of heaven vs hell, a question of being with the One you love above all else and seeing Him as He is vs the horror of opposing Him, and of being the target of His precise and thorough justice. snip

This is not answering my question at all. Convert or not, I am asking you to show me a reason to worship this God. I don't care about what you feel about him.. Because if afterlife security is the only selling point, then this god an evil being.

In fact, it's seems like "never being born" would be better; Abortion seems humane now, because why is it good for someone to be brought into dark world only to suffer and then die, and is mysteriously forced to subjection to god he/she never met only to avoid greater eternal suffering? How is that love towards your existence?


Meanwhile, I also worship him because even on this earth, I am taken from my old view of things, and given a new life, my perspective changed to enjoying His presence and serving Him. It is what I was made for during this life. "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain."

This full life I now live has tastes of the life to come: Him being my sustenance, my complete involvement in every aspect of what happens to me (yet knowing that it is Him in me), my suffering almost humorous in retrospect, were it not for the fact that He suffers more on my account than I do. Why would you want to worship Him? Ask Him!

How I WISH all creation could see God, even now! And they will, but I long for that day. EVERY knee will bow.
Why would I ask him about wanting to worship him, there is no will attached or required to it in the first, so what's the point? It's all just "so i don't burn in hell", right? What is the point of wishing for all creation to see God when not everyone is selected with the position (or life) to be a believer?

I hope you are aware that you have not answered why this God should be worthy of worship other than avoiding damnation. The only thing I get from you, other than your feelings is that in reality, we are created just to be held hostage with a "gun pointed to our head" which is to obey and flatter him.
 
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1Reformedman

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This is not answering my question at all. Convert or not, I am asking you to show me a reason to worship this God. I don't care about what you feel about him.. Because if afterlife security is the only selling point, then this god an evil being.

In fact, it's seems like "never being born" would be better; Abortion seems humane now, because why is it good for someone to be brought into dark world only to suffer and then die, and is mysteriously forced to subjection to god he/she never met only to avoid greater eternal suffering? How is that love towards your existence?



Why would I ask him about wanting to worship him, there is no will attached or required to it in the first, so what's the point? It's all just "so i don't burn in hell", right? What is the point of wishing for all creation to see God when not everyone is selected with the position (or life) to be a believer?

I hope you are aware that you have not answered why this God should be worthy of worship other than avoiding damnation. The only thing I get from you, other than your feelings is that in reality, we are created just to be held hostage with a "gun pointed to our head" which is to obey and flatter him.

Show me a single command that contains within it your ability to obey it.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Why would I ask him about wanting to worship him, there is no will attached or required to it in the first, so what's the point? It's all just "so i don't burn in hell", right? What is the point of wishing for all creation to see God when not everyone is selected with the position (or life) to be a believer?
I thought I explained a bit about how much he deserves our worship, and how much the believer can't help but worship. Who said there is no will attached or required to it? Our will is incompetent, is all I was saying, if I remember right what you are referring to without going back and figuring out which post is which. I thought I was clear that no, it is NOT just "so I don't burn in hell". I wish all creation could see it, because he deserves at least that. People acknowledging the truth concerning him is satisfaction and delight to me.
 
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Mark Quayle

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This is not answering my question at all. Convert or not, I am asking you to show me a reason to worship this God. I don't care about what you feel about him.. Because if afterlife security is the only selling point, then this god an evil being.

In fact, it's seems like "never being born" would be better; Abortion seems humane now, because why is it good for someone to be brought into dark world only to suffer and then die, and is mysteriously forced to subjection to god he/she never met only to avoid greater eternal suffering? How is that love towards your existence?



Why would I ask him about wanting to worship him, there is no will attached or required to it in the first, so what's the point? It's all just "so i don't burn in hell", right? What is the point of wishing for all creation to see God when not everyone is selected with the position (or life) to be a believer?

I hope you are aware that you have not answered why this God should be worthy of worship other than avoiding damnation. The only thing I get from you, other than your feelings is that in reality, we are created just to be held hostage with a "gun pointed to our head" which is to obey and flatter him.
Then you seem to miss the whole point of my post. My fault, I hope.

The believer loves God. Avoiding damnation is a minor point, more of a reminder or warning, for the believer. Our reaction to our own sin is not so much fear, as sorrow.
 
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