How Free will establishes FAITH... but what would I know.....

[DennisTate]

Free-will means your salvation is based upon something besides God wooing you here kitty, kitty style.

It's based upon a decision based upon your life's happenstance events....if this or that did or didn't happen to you you would or would not be saved.

Perhaps it was the soft music at the alter call that tugged at your mood and you went forward to be saved....but if there was no music you would have stayed seated and remained lost.

Maybe your choice was to remain seated as to avoid embarrassment...and you missed out on salvation. I guess God should have wooed harder.

True..... there is RESPONSIBILITY that goes along with POWER!

Peter Parker's Uncle Ben said so and Rick Joyner did a brilliant job of writing up how the Patriarch Adam might meet somebody in a dream and explain this:



A message from Adam to all of humanity?! Does this sound legitimate to you???

Pastor Rick Joyner: "Love Releases Life

Another man who looked almost exactly like Abel came and stood beside him.

"I am Adam," he said. "I was given authority over the earth, but I gave it to the evil one by obeying evil. He now rules in my place and your place. The earth was given to man, but the evil one has taken it. The authority I lost was restored by the cross. Jesus Christ is "the last Adam," and He will soon take His authority and rule. He will rule through mankind because He gave the earth to mankind. Those who live in your times will prepare the earth for Him to rule."

"Please tell me more," I asked, a little surprised to see Adam, but wanting to hear everything he had to say. "How do we prepare for Him?"

"Love," he said. "You must love one another. You must love the earth, and you must love life. My sin released the death that now flows as rivers upon the earth. Your love will release rivers of life. When evil reigns, death is stronger than life, and death prevails over life. When righteousness reigns, life prevails, and life is stronger than death. Soon the life of the Son of God will swallow up the death that was released through my disobedience. It is not just living that you must love, but life. Death is your enemy. You are called to be a messenger of life.

"When the Lord's people begin to love, He will use them to release His judgments. His judgments are to be desired. The whole world is groaning and travailing as it waits for His judgments, and when they come, the world will learn righteousness. What He is about to do, He will do through His people, and His people will stand as Elijah in the last days. Their words will shut up the heavens or bring rain; they will prophesy earthquakes and famines, and they will come to pass; they will stop famines and earthquakes.

"When they release armies in the heavens, armies will march on the earth. When they hold back armies, there will be peace. They will decide where He shows mercy and where He shows His wrath. They will have this authority because they will love, and those who love will be one with Him. What you will see through that door is to help prepare you for what He is about to do through His people.

"I know authority. I also know the responsibility of authority. Because of the great authority that I was given, I am responsible for what has happened to the earth. Even so, the grace of God began to cover me, and God's great redemption will soon swallow up my mistake. Peace will be taken from the earth, but you are called to help restore it. Peace prevails in heaven, and you are called to bring heaven to earth. Those who abide in His presence will know peace and will spread peace.

"The earth itself will shake and tremble. Times of trouble greater than have ever been known will begin to move across the earth like great waves of the sea. Even so, those who know Him will not be troubled. They will stand before the raging of the seas and say, "Peace, be still" and the seas will be calm. Even the least of His little ones will be like a great fortress of peace that will stand through all that is coming. His glory will be revealed to His people first and then through them. Even the creation will recognize Him in His people and will obey them as it does Him.

"This is the authority that I had, and it will be given to mankind again. I used my authority to turn Paradise into a wilderness. The Lord will use His authority to turn the wilderness into Paradise again. This is the authority that He is giving to His people. I used mine wrongly and death came. When His authority is used in righteousness, it will release life. Be careful how you use authority. With authority comes responsibility. You, too, can use it wrongly, but you will not do this if you love. As all of heaven knows, "Love never fails."

"What about the earthquakes, famines and even wars that you said we would release on the earth? Won't this be releasing death?" I asked.

"All the death that is coming upon the world is being allowed to prepare the way for life. Everything that is sown must be reaped, unless those who have sown evil call upon the cross in Spirit and truth. The army of the cross is about to be released, and it will march in the power of the cross, carrying the offer of mercy to all. Those who reject the mercy of God have rejected life."

"That is a great responsibility," I said. "How do we know when they have rejected His mercy?"

"Disobedience brought death, and obedience will bring life. When I walked with God, He taught me His ways. As I walked with Him, I began to know Him. You must walk with God and learn of His ways. Your authority is His authority, and you must be one with Him in order to use it. The weapons of His army are not carnal" they are spiritual and much more powerful than any earthly weapons. Your most powerful weapons are truth and love. Even the final judgment of destruction is God's love extended in mercy.

"When truth spoken in love is rejected, death has been chosen over life. You will understand this as you walk with Him. You will come to understand the Spirit that He has given to you to bring life and not death. There is a time to give men over to reap what they have sown, but you must do all things in obedience. Jesus came to give life. He does not desire for any to perish, and this must be your desire also. For this reason, you must even love your enemies if you are to be trusted with the authority that He wants to give to His people.

'The time is at hand for the fulfillment of what has been written. His people have prayed for more time, and He gave it to them. However, few have used it wisely. You have a little more time, but soon the time can no longer be delayed. The time is near when time itself will seem to speed up. As it is written, when He comes, He will come quickly. However, you are not to fear the times. If you fear Him, you do not need to fear anything that is coming upon the earth.

"All that is about to happen is coming so that His wisdom can again prevail on earth just as it does in heaven. All of the evil that was sown in mankind is about to be reaped. Even so, the good that He has sown will also be reaped. Goodness is stronger than evil. Love is stronger than death. He walked the earth to destroy the works of the devil, and He will finish what He has begun." (Rick Joyner, from his book The Call and The Vision)

 

[charsan]

I TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It seems like an obvious cop out by people who want to justify their own refusal to figure out some valid and effective way to reach out to the lost.......... I've been there... done that... and got the T-shirt because my old church the Worldwide Church of God was non-prostylitizing and our reasoning was not very good at all but it took me a long time to be shown how far off we really were.

Agreed. Also a person in the light can go to the dark by their own freewill. That is why we must fight the good fight, we always have two natures warring for control and can give into them anytime.

 

[paul1149]

The Bible, with all its appeals, exhortations, and warnings, makes no sense without free will. God has designed so that we can choose Him or not. And choosing Him is not works-salvation. That would be like giving credit for a dangerous rescue to the man grabbing onto a life preserver thrown to him.

 

[friend of]

No need to disparage yourself. That's a perfectly reasonable assertion.

Faith is the substance hoped for the evidence of things unseen.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

If there is no such thing as free will then there goes our ability to sin. Without choice there is no sin.

Free will as a theological concept is not the same as free choice. Even with a deterministic perspective a person freely chooses. It just happens that their free choice is the predictable result of causal relationships on a given set of circumstances. Free will as a theological concept is indeterministic, which means that a person breaks the laws of nature and behaves a certain way as a result of a supernatural force (his spirit), or else he behaves in an unscientific and hopelessly chaotic and lawless way, acting a certain way for no reason at all. Free will, in this sense, goes a step further and applies indeterminism to the spirit, also. As a rationalist, yourself, I'm inclined to think that you should be partial to the deterministic view.

A fire burns, grows and moves as it will, but it never violates the laws of nature that set it in motion. It still does its damage, and it still needs to be eliminated.

 

[Woke]

OK.... this is an interesting answer.......
and my off the cuff response is kind of complicated........

G-d has a plan to bring all eight billion people on this third rock to repentance but........
many, many, many of these people depend on the response to the calling of G-d on the lives of others who have the advantage of getting their calling first....... due to their being in a place where they can hear or read the works of a genuinely led and inspired preacher who isn't so far off in terms of truth that they do not actually do more harm than good to their readers or listeners??????

FREE WILL carries with it both POWER as well as RESPONSIBILITY!

Romans 10

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"

God's will (will here meaning God's desire) is that all repent and get saved true, but he has no plan to bring all 8 billion on this planet to salvation. Because he has given them all the privilege of choice. That privilege is what we are calling free will.

Read the gospel accounts. Many will not receive salvation when Christ comes or anytime after that. Their fate will be the exact same fate as the demon's.

 

[rockytopva]

Did not Freewill inhibit a whole generation of Israeli from entering in to the promised land? That it was God’s will for them to inherit?

Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. - 1 Corinthians 10:11

 

[Kenny'sID]

Because free will means it is our choice to take God or leave him, it shows we must have real faith because we choose him out of want, as opposed to being forced or destined to choose God.

 

[DennisTate]

Agreed. Also a person in the light can go to the dark by their own freewill. That is why we must fight the good fight, we always have two natures warring for control and can give into them anytime.

I admit it........
just about the only thing that scares me these days is that evil gleam in my own blue eyes??????

I know that I know that I know that I still have pride......
I know that I still wrestle with lust.....
I know that the best acts of my life have a certain amount of selfishness in them..........

I really am hoping that some of my Atheist and Agnostic buddies will come to some level of faith........

and I sincerely and honestly cannot think of anything that I would prefer for them to

listen to or read rather than the books or youtube video's by Dean Braxton and his Prayer Warrior Wife who frankly................. is such a Prayer Warrior that SHE ... is really the one whose FAITH raised her husband from the dead after an hour and a forty five minutes flatlining...........

Why does his wife get so little attention???????????????????????

Mr. Dean Braxton's wife prayed and raised the dead............. and kept the unbelieving people out of his hospital room......... She is only human..... but her faith is up there with the Centurian and the woman from Samaria who talked about little dogs at least getting crumbs from the table!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I mean seriously..... what is wrong with us that his wife doesn't get much, much much more credit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why do we give such little credit to Pastor Todd Burpo, who not only brought his son back from the dead but.......... he gave Messiah Yeshua - Jesus a legal precedent to act with more JUSTICE and mercy to every parent and pastor within the Bride of Messiah all over this third rock!!!!!!!!?

But even in all of this.......
to a degree.... I am still somewhat showing off much as my mentor Mr. Garner Ted Armstrong and the WWCG pastors used to do?????!!!!

I do feel kind of special that I was shown that Mr. Dean Braxton and his wife are major, major, major, major leage Special Forces for Messiah Yeshua - Jesus .... .and I marvel how so many Christians seems to not be catching onto that rather obvious fact??????? (So how do I react........ I become kind of proud and argumentative)?!

 

[DennisTate]

God's will (will here meaning God's desire) is that all repent and get saved true, but he has no plan to bring all 8 billion on this planet to salvation. Because he has given them all the privilege of choice. That privilege is what we are calling free will.

Read the gospel accounts. Many will not receive salvation when Christ comes or anytime after that. Their fate will be the exact same fate as the demon's.

I HAVE A PLAN TO BRING ALL EIGHT BILLION TO REPENTANCE......... I call it Unified Field Theory of Modern World Problems and it is kind of complicated........ but rest assured...... my plan is pablum in comparison to what Messiah Yeshua - Jesus has in miND if.... HIS BRIDE WOULD ARISE OUT OF RELATIVE SLEEP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[paul1149]

I HAVE A PLAN TO BRING ALL EIGHT BILLION TO REPENTANCE

All we can do is present the Gospel, in both word and deed. Then it is up to each one to use his free will to decide.

 

[PaulCyp1]

Free will is the basis for faith in Christ. We freely choose to accept Him and follow Him, or to reject Him.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I am just a janitor at a school who reads a lot but I am no expert on such questions from any recognized angle?????


How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)




You will certainly want to see the opening post in that discussion which can be viewed here:

How Free Will Destroys Faith in Christ (Continued)



Personally .... I rather like a historical Elijah who was capable of giving in to fear and running away to Mt. Horeb even though that sure seemed to NOT be where G-d wanted Elijah to be at the time that G-d asked him two times.....
"What doest thou here Elijah?"

Could the prophet Elijah have altered history if he had NOT........

... RAN AWAY from Queen Jezebel and her armies?

You seem to me to be saying free will has more authority than faith. Did you not read that Faith (that is, salvific faith)

If there is no such thing as free will then there goes our ability to sin. Without choice there is no sin. I am reminded of an event that happened some 50 years ago near my home town. Two men had been out hunting and when they left to go home they placed their rifles in the box of the pick up truck along with their dog. The passenger glanced back and said the dog was very agitated about something and was pacing frantically around. He stepped on the trigger of one of the rifles. It discharged killing the driver. Is the dog guilty of murder? If it were a child rather than the dog would the child be guilty of murder? If the child had picked up the rifle and was playing with it?

Once again, Reformed doctrine does not teach there is no such thing as choice. Only that our choices are inhibited or propelled according to our nature. So, Free Will is only possible to some extent.

But even beyond that, our every intention is corrupted by sin, but for Christ. We in our natural state are not as corrupt as we could be, but our every thought and deed is governed by the principle of corruption; thus, for example, John 3:18, "...are already condemned, because they have not believed."

 

[com7fy8]

I personally went with "Yes".....
but even a "????? Maybe"..... is I would think better than a "No"... because that means that free will tends to decrease your faith which is really confusing to me.

Free will can, if we are talking about >

"faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6).

 

[DennisTate]

Free will can, if we are talking about >

"faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6).

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love."

I take that to mean that all of us are judged partly for our actual acts but partly for how much we were given.

Some poor guy who is deaf and mute..... would be expected to accomplish less than somebody who was given a great home, a great church and a good education.

I have total faith in the ability of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus to judge each of us justly no matter how many talents we were given in this life.

Has God called some of us to be poor, sick, no arms or legs and persecuted???

Rick Joyner: "Who pleases Jesus the most?


He then stopped and I turned to look at those in the thrones next to us. We were still in the place where the very highest kings were sitting. Then I recogniozed a man who was close by.

"Sir, I know you from somewhere, but I just cannot remember where."

"You once saw me in a vision," he replied.

I immediately remembered, and I was shocked! "So you were a real person?"

"Yes," he replied.

I then began to remember the day when as a young Christian I had become frustrated with some issues in my life. I went out into the middle of a battlefield park near my apartment and determined to wait until the Lord spoke to me. As I sat reading my Bible, I was caught up in a vision, one of the first that I ever had.

In the vision I saw a man who was zealously serving the Lord. He was continually witnessing to people, teaching and visiting the sick to pray for them. He was very zealous for the Lord, and had a genuine love for people. Then I saw another man who was obviously a tramp or a homeless man. A small kitten wandered into his path and he started to kick it, but restrained himself, but still shoved it rather harshly out of the way with his foot. Then the Lord asked me which of these men pleased Him the most.

"The first," I said without hesitating.

"No, the second," He responded, and began to tell me their stories.

The first man had been raised in a wonderful family, which had always known the Lord. He grew up in a thriving church, and then attended one of the best Bible Colleges. He had been given 100 portions of His love, but he was using only 75.

The second man had been deaf. He was abused and kept in a dark, cold attic until he was found by the authorities when he was eight years old. He had then been shifted from one institution to another where the abuse continued. Finally he was turned out on the streets. To overcome all this the Lord had only given him three portions of His love, but he had mustered every bit of it to fight the rage in his heart to keep from hurting the kitten...

Angelo

Extract from The Final Quest by Rick Joyner

I now looked at that man, a king sitting on a throne far more glorious than Solomon could have even imagined. Hosts of angels were arrayed about him, waiting to do his bidding. I turned to the Lord in awe. I still just could not believe he was real, much less one of the great kings.

"Lord, please tell me the rest of his story," I begged.

"Of course, that is why we are here. Angelo was so faithful with the little that I had given to him, I gave him three more portions of My love. He used all of that to quit stealing. He almost starved, but he refused to take anything that was not his. He bought his food with what he could make collecting bottles, and occasionally finding someone who would let him do yard work. He could not hear but he had learned to read, so I sent him a gospel tract. As he read it the Spirit opened his heart, and he gave his life to Me. I again doubled the portions of My love to him and he faithfully used all of them. He wanted to share Me with others, but he could not speak. Even though he lived in such poverty, he started spending over half of everything he made on gospel tracts to give out on street corners."

"How many did he lead to you?" I asked, thinking that it must have been multitudes for him to be sitting with the kings.

"One," the Lord answered. "I let him lead a dying alcoholic to Me to encourage him. It encouraged him so much he would have stood on that corner for many more years just to bring another soul to repentance. But all of heaven was entreating Me to bring him here, and I, too, wanted him to receive his reward."
"He was faithful with all that I gave him"

"But what did he do to become a king?" I asked.

"He was faithful with all that he was given, he overcame all until he became like Me, and he died a martyr."

"But what did he overcome, and how was he martyred?"

He overcame the world with My love. Very few have overcome so much with so little. Many of My people dwell in homes that kings would have envied just a century ago because of their conveniences, but do not appreciate them, while Angelo would so appreciate a cardboard box on a cold night that he would turn it into a glorious temple of My presence. He began to love everyone and everything. He would rejoice more over an apple than My people do over a great feast. He was faithful with all that I gave him, even though it wasn't very much compared to what I gave others, including you. I showed him to you in a vision because you passed by him many times. You even once pointed him out to one of your friends and spoke of him."

"I did? What did I say?"

"You said, 'There is another one of those Elijahs who must have escaped from the bus station.' You said he was 'a religious nut' who was sent by the enemy to turn people off the gospel."

This was the worst blow that I had yet suffered in this experience. I was more than shocked, I was appalled. I tried to remember the specific incident but I couldn't, simply because there were so many others like it. I had never had much compassion for filthy street preachers who seemed to me that they were specifically sent to turn people off the gospel.

"I am sorry Lord. I'm really sorry."

"And you are forgiven," He quickly responded. "And you are right. There are many who try to preach the gospel on the streets, for wrong, and even perverted reasons. Even so, there are many who are sincere, even if they are untrained and unlearned. You must not judge by appearances. There are many true servants who look like he did as there are among the polished professionals in the great cathedrals and organizations that men have built in My Name." (Angelo, from The Final Quest by Rick Joyner)

4:37:05 in this video:

 

[1Reformedman]

It is free will that allows us to respond to Faith by either rejecting or embracing Faith.

The lost one cannot please God so if you haven't been born again you cant make the choice to believe as that is a spiritual thing and it would please God if you could but the bile says its not possible for a lost one. Romans 8:7-8; 1 Cor. 2:14.

 

[charsan]

Sorry I just don't cotton to anything reformed

 

[1Reformedman]

I am not sure that "a christianity" without free will would actually be "a Christianity".

ok show me a single command in the world that contains in it your natural moral ability to obey it?


Here's a for instance: I command you to build an atom bomb. Where in that command to you find your natural moral ability to obey that command? YOU DONT. Its found elsewhere just like its found elsewhere in the bible. God's saving grace is needed before you have any opportunity to choose Christ., you must be born again to see the kingdom of God. A lost one si spiritually dead, deaf and blind until he is regenerated.

 

[Neogaia777]

I can't believe you guys are still debating this...

Free will or the lack thereof is a "perspective or point of view"... From the "true Highest God's perspective", we really do not have it, not really, but from "anyone else's perspectives", possibly even the other two member's of the trinity perspectives and/or points of view, etc, we do have it, etc...

It's a question of "omniscience", since any kind of free will anyone ever has is based on "not knowing", etc, so on and so forth, we both do and do not have it, etc, like I said it's a perspective or point of view based on omniscience, etc... and since none of us are omniscient, etc, we do have it, or do have choice and/or free will, etc, but only because of and due to our "not knowing" or what we "don't know", etc, or only due to lacking all of the knowledge of what all of what the highest God knows or has, etc... Therefore we do have it, etc, if that makes any kind of sense to you, etc...

Or, try going through life and living this life as if you did not have choice or choices, etc, or as if your own will or own free will is never ever involved, etc, you'll find that, "that", is just "not possible", etc... unless you happen to be a human being that knows and always knew all that the true highest Father God knows, or always knew, etc... Cause other than that, it's just not possible, etc... Not possible to go through this life without your own will or choice ever being or at least seeming to be involved, etc... Just not possible for us, etc...

So, from our perspective and/or point of view we do have it and must exercise it, etc, even if we really do not have it, from a "certain perspective or point of view", etc... a perspective or point of view that is just "very much way, way too high for us to have and/or ever attain to", or know, etc...

Causal determinism, and causal determinism from the very beginning is the truth for all of us, etc, maybe even possibly the other two members of the trinity even, etc, but it does not mean we don't have to choose and or exercise our own will or choice, etc, all it means is that the true highest Father God already knows, etc, and already knew from before the very beginning, etc... and, yes, some would say He already chose or predetermined for us, etc, but because we don't know that or we don't know all He or that One knows or always knew, etc, we still do have choice and/or free will, etc, or our own will does still seem to be very, very much involved, etc, and from our perspectives and/or points of view, it very much "still is", etc...

Anyway,

Anyway, but you guys will probably still be arguing this for awhile or until the end of time, or untill the end of this age I guess, and if so, I'll leave you to it, OK...?

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I can't believe you guys are still debating this...

Free will or the lack thereof is a "perspective or point of view"... From the "true Highest God's perspective", we really do not have it, not really, but from "anyone else's perspectives", possibly even the other two member's of the trinity perspectives and/or points of view, etc, we do have it, etc...

It's a question of "omniscience", since any kind of free will anyone ever has is based on "not knowing", etc, so on and so forth, we both do and do not have it, etc, like I said it's a perspective or point of view based on omniscience, etc... and since none of us are omniscient, etc, we do have it, or do have choice and/or free will, etc, but only because of and due to our "not knowing" or what we "don't know", etc, or only due to lacking all of the knowledge of what all of what the highest God knows or has, etc... Therefore we do have it, etc, if that makes any kind of sense to you, etc...

Or, try going through life and living this life as if you did not have choice or choices, etc, or as if your own will or own free will is never ever involved, etc, you'll find that, "that", is just "not possible", etc... unless you happen to be a human being that knows and always knew all that the true highest Father God knows, or always knew, etc... Cause other than that, it's just not possible, etc... Not possible to go through this life without your own will or choice ever being or at least seeming to be involved, etc... Just not possible for us, etc...

So, from our perspective and/or point of view we do have it and must exercise it, etc, even if we really do not have it, from a "certain perspective or point of view", etc... a perspective or point of view that is just "very much way, way too high for us to have and/or ever attain to", or know, etc...

Causal determinism, and causal determinism from the very beginning is the truth for all of us, etc, maybe even possibly the other two members of the trinity even, etc, but it does not mean we don't have to choose and or exercise our own will or choice, etc, all it means is that the true highest Father God already knows, etc, and already knew from before the very beginning, etc... and, yes, some would say He already chose or predetermined for us, etc, but because we don't know that or we don't know all He or that One knows or always knew, etc, we still do have choice and/or free will, etc, or our own will does still seem to be very, very much involved, etc, and from our perspectives and/or points of view, it very much "still is", etc...

Anyway,

Anyway, but you guys will probably still be arguing this for awhile or until the end of time, or untill the end of this age I guess, and if so, I'll leave you to it, OK...?

God Bless!

So, from our perspective and/or point of view, etc, we must still exercise that choice (or that will) to "choose" Christ, etc, "choose" to believe, and/or obey, and/or have faith, and/or "whatever else", etc, even if, "technically", that choice has already been made (up) and predetermined for us, etc...

Anyway, I really do hope you guys "catch this", etc... if anything, so I'll stop seeing these threads, etc...

Anyway,

God Bless!