The ability of God - Does God always get His will done?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Then why, in your mind, are some willing and others are not if it's not dictated by their natures?

Rather, in the Mind of Christ, in His Word, what is Truth ?

 

[98cwitr]

Because He is good AND just. Not one or the other.

A good and just God gives personal and individual directives He knows will be ignored? That doesn't really make sense. I invite you to readdress the question.

 

[98cwitr]

Rather, in the Mind of Christ, in His Word, what is Truth ?

Jesus is the Truth. You didn't answer my question though. This is the 2nd occurrence of my questions being sidestepped. Please address directly. I have shown you that respect.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

A good and just God gives directives He knows will be ignored? That doesn't really make sense. I invite you to readdress the question.

Remember WHO gave TORAH to Israel ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus is the Truth. You didn't answer my question though. This is the 2nd occurrence of my questions being sidestepped. Please address directly. I have shown you that respect.

You seem to be attempting to get a short-cut to something that approves of your pre-decided answer or solution.
The basis for your belief and/or choice is likely from years ago.
It won't be solved nor resolved in a short time today.
My posts are as the Father guides me, as hopefully yours are also.
Perhaps like fencing (dualing) to sharpen the reflexes.
Perhaps like iron sharpening iron.

 

[98cwitr]

Remember WHO gave TORAH to Israel ?

That was an instruction to an entire people. Again, and let me be clear: I am referring to directives given to an individual. Or do you believe God no longer gives individual directives?

 

[98cwitr]

You seem to be attempting to get a short-cut to something that approves of your pre-decided answer or solution.
The basis for your belief and/or choice is likely from years ago.
It won't be solved nor resolved in a short time today.
My posts are as the Father guides me, as hopefully yours are also.
Perhaps like fencing (dualing) to sharpen the reflexes.
Perhaps like iron sharpening iron.

I would simply appreciate the respect of a direct answer, like I've shown you.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That was an instruction to an entire people. Again, and let me be clear: I am referring to directives given to an individual. Or do you believe God no longer gives individual directives?

Those with a circumcised heart, in Israel, and today, receive His Instructions daily , as a sheep LISTENS to JESUS daily, hearing His Voice, as Jesus Says.

No one will have an excuse for ignoring Jesus today, as also is written in God's Word, the Scripture, especially as those who ignored Yahuweh when He spoke from the mountain, were destroyed for rebelling against Him,
so also moreso, those who rebel against what Jesus says will suffer even more.

 

[topher694]

A good and just God gives directives He knows will be ignored? That doesn't really make sense. I invite you to readdress the question.

And what you are presenting really doesn't make sense to me...

If God did not show us in the right direction regardless of our response, that wouldn't be very good of Him. Likewise if He didn't stay true to His own standards when we do respond, that wouldn't be very just of Him.

 

[public hermit]

Now to the question. Let's say when Philip heard the voice of the Holy Spirit and didn't choose to follow the voice. Then the eunuch didn't get the message of Christ and wasn't saved. Who would be to be blamed? God?

One problem with this question is that is assumes (without argument) a certain understanding of human freedom, i.e. the libertarian view of free-will. The question assumes that, given the exact same set of circumstances, Philip could have chosen otherwise. It offers a counter factual concerning a past event that has already obtained.

Why is that a problem? Because there is no reason to think if Philip could go back to a set of circumstance that are exactly the same, he would have a reason to choose otherwise. If, on the other hand, there were a reason to choose otherwise, then the circumstances are no longer exactly the same. If the circumstances are no longer exactly the same, then the premise of freedom in identical circumstances no longer holds. Also, if there is no other reason to choose otherwise (i.e. circumstances are exactly the same), and yet Philip chooses otherwise, then his choice is arbitrary because he has no reason. If his choices are arbitrary, then the main reason we like the idea of free-will (responsibility) falters.

 

[AlexDTX]

This debate is never ending. On the one hand, no one disagrees that God can do anything (apart from denying his own nature). The mistake is to equate his omnipotence with his will. Just because he can does not mean he will. The Scriptures plainly state that God is not willing that any should perish, yet millions perish.

I think those in the Calvinist camp and those in the Universal Salvation camp embrace their doctrines because of a subconscious fear that they may go to Hell, which is a detestable thought. So, by either believing God chose you to be saved, but not others, or that all will be saved in the end, is meant to comfort their fears. It has been stated many times that God's will is for our will to be free, which means he allows us to reject him. Such a thought is frightening. What if one day, after being saved, I decide to reject him? I say this, playing the devil's advocate, because I do not believe this.

I believe that there are sufficient promises made by God in the Bible that he will finish our faith and bring us to completion. But that promise is for those who accept salvation, not those who reject it.

And if I am wrong, then, like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, even if we are not delivered, yet will we worship him because he is the sum of all goodness and what is right.

 

[AlexDTX]

Why would an Omniscient God, in your mind, issue a directive He knows will be refused? To bring about His Will while simultaneously righteously condemning (or simply disciplining) the refuser?

God knows our hearts. When I was a young believer, the Lord told me to propose to a woman I was seeing. I did not know her for very long, and I refused. The Lord kept insisting, then I finally relented and asked her to marry me. She was shocked and declined. I could not understand why God would tell me to propose when he knew she would decline. Her answer was that she was the one God was trying to get her attention. She was not aware of my vulnerable state and was flirting and spending time with me without realizing my desire to be married.

I also think God tells people to do things, knowing they will refuse to make them aware of what they really believe. Andrew Wommack tells the story about a decision he made not to share the Gospel to someone whose heart was very hard, and he "knew" he would reject it. Then the Lord spoke to him and told him that he had no right to make that decision for him. Share the Gospel. The man rejected it, but he heard and then had no excuse. It was his decision, and he became aware of his own rejection of the Gospel.

 

[AlexDTX]

A good and just God gives personal and individual directives He knows will be ignored? That doesn't really make sense. I invite you to readdress the question.

Mordecai had words of wisdom for Esther.

Est 4:14 For if thou altogether holdest thy peace at this time, then shall there enlargement and deliverance arise to the Jews from another place;

He understood that if Esther did not speak up and act, then God would choose another person to do his will.

Elijah also comes to my mind. God gave him 3 tasks to do.

1Ki 19:15 And the LORD said unto him [Elijah], Go, return on thy way to the wilderness of Damascus: and when thou comest, anoint Hazael to be king over Syria:
1Ki 19:16 And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room.

The only one Elijah anointed was Elisha his replacement. It was Elisha who finished the job in anointing Hazael and Jehu. Yet, God loved Elijah so much, he did not hold this against him, and took him to heaven without dying.

 

[public hermit]

God wants everyone saved, but because of man not everyone is.

We want to allow for the fact that God allows human choice, and cannot constrain it in allowing it, because we consider unconstrained human choice a great good. Maybe, we consider it one of the greatest of all goods. But, if that great good leads to the destruction of some, or any, is it still a great good?

The idea that God does not accomplish what God sets out to do for the sake of human freedom comes across as a gross anthropomorphism. Moreover, if God cannot guarantee what God sets out to do, then the ground of our own faith and hope falls apart.

Personally, I hold that God will succeed in accomplishing all God has set out to do and it will be very, very good. Whatever I believe, theologically speaking, begins with that premise. Otherwise, it all falls apart.

 

[zoidar]

He did.


Which was not the outcome.


Only those who believe God can be thwarted.

"I know that You can do all things, And that no purpose of Yours can be thwarted. (Job 42:2)

Have you heard the voice of the Holy Spirit? If so, have you always done what the Holy Spirit told you to do?

 

[Hazelelponi]

@zoidar -

Romans 9:19-20

"One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?" But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "

If libertarian free will is right, the answer would have been everyone can resist God's will, not who are you to talk back to God.


Excusing Sinners and Blaming God: A Calvinist Assessment of Determinism, Moral Responsibility, and Divine Involvement in Evil. by Guillaume Bignon

^^ read up..

Read on the concept compatiblism..

 

[rnmomof7]

I believe that as Scripture says, it is God's will that ALL PERSONS come to the knowledge of God and are saved.

"The Latin fathers seek to guard their application; and St Augustine actually says “by ‘all’ understand ‘all the predestined,’ because men of all sorts are among them.” The phrase is not “willeth to save all,” which would have been very near to universalism; but there is implied “the human acceptance of offered salvation on which even God’s predestination is contingent” Alford.'​

That leaves two possibilities. Either everyone will be saved. Or God doesn't always get His will accomplished.

Which is how we know that this is not interpreted correctly

God gave men and angels free will. I doubt seriously that sin and evil and suffering and death are the will of a good and loving God. But because He does not treat us as puppets, we do things that lead to such effects.

"free will" is not taught anywhere in the scriptures ... Does God will evil and suffering" Did God not plan the crucification of Christ, the greatest evil ever committed?

God is ABLE to do whatever He wants. But part of being made in His image is the dignity of free will. And God does not violate that.

Scripture please

However with that said - it is my hope that many desire God without realizing it, and so align their hearts, and perhaps when these encounter God (Christ) as He is (and not as they might misunderstand Him) ... perhaps they are ultimately willing to choose Him after all and I hope that is enough for them.

No one will fall at the cross unless drawn there by Gods grace.. (His "interference" with "free will")

 

[zoidar]

Good Day, Peter

I wish you would have picked Jonah as he did choose to disobey for reasons we well know from the text. Philip on the other hand did choose to follow, so to the construction of the question is somewhat flawed IMHO... never the less.

Can we agree on some basics here about Phillip.

His heart was circumcised Eze 36 ( heart of stone removed etc..) by the work of God and he was gifted both repentance and faith. We have discussed these tings before so can we just assume this things from the start.

Ok so here goes in your question when did the Holy Spirit know/learn that Phillip was not going to follow his direct instructions?

Before He impressed it in his heart to do so, or did he only learn after impressing that desire on Phillip's heart and mind?

Blame .. wow. Can we take this slow?

I assume you are going to address

Isa 46:8"Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.


Peter I hope I am never viewed as unkind

In Him,

Bill

You have not come off as unkind, not at all. But you have a strong belief in some things I don't. Yet, I'm sure we are on the same line on quite a few things. I intended to reply in the other thread but it was closed, so I started this thread.

Have you heard the voice of the Holy Spirit, if so have you always obeyed? If not, why do you think disobedience was impossible with Philip?

Jona is a great story. God is patient, He gave Jona another chance. Do you think God always give us a new chance?

God is acomplishing what he desires, certainly, from the choices we make. If we reject Him to the end His patience is gone. We will reap the outcome. God wants a person who rejects Him, to stop rejecting Him. But if the person won't allow the Spirit in, then God wants that person to reap the consequences.

If you have a son that is a criminal you want him locked in as long as he keeps on living a life in crime. That doesn't mean you don't love him or want him to change his lifestile, so he can be freed from prison.

 

[zoidar]

In the sense of the decrees He has given to all of mankind, I would agree. But to clarify, do you believe a man can (or would) be issued a directive by God, individually, and simply refuse?

Yes, I know we can. I did, and it lead to the most terrible thing I ever been through.

 

[redleghunter]

Have you heard the voice of the Holy Spirit? If so, have you always done what the Holy Spirit told you to do?

You can what if this all you want but it is clear Phillip went to where he was called. Why he was an Apostle chosen by Christ.

How can you put this on par with what we face day to day? Or are you getting supernatural “rides” to your next location as Phillip did?

39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, but went on his way rejoicing. 40But Philip appeared at Azotus and traveled through that region, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he came to Caesarea.