Why are so many against reformed Theology…

[Bob Carabbio]

Once more Bob for your edification:

The Reformed view of election, known as unconditional election, means that God does not foresee an action or condition on our part that induces Him to save us. Rather, election rests on God’s sovereign decision to save whomever He is pleased to save.

I.E. an "Arbitrary decision". "U" = Unconditional.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's not God's fault you love sin so much when He allows you to follow your own desires..

Is it the parents fault if their kid turns out to be a bad apple after providing them a good home with good examples?

Plenty of people with perfectly normal childhoods grow up and get hooked on drugs, in prison, rapists or murderers, drunks or otherwise messed up adults - the nice guy next door who turns out to be some psychopath...

Should we hold then the parents to account, instead of him?

Or are we just in saying the man should be punished for his own actions - that he freely made?

If it's just in saying those guilty should be punished - the only thing that seems unjust would be that God saves anyone...

And that is where we see God's mercy.. Because God is both just and merciful, one cannot be separated from the other..

but to pretend Hes not also the Sovereign over creation, is to make Him no God at all..

According to Calvin’s theology God’s expectations are impossible for the unelected to meet and this being in accordance to God’s sovereign plan ultimately makes God responsible for our unrepentant, sinful, and rebellious state since He is in control and obviously has the ability to enable everyone to repent and believe simply by bestowing grace upon them. It’s kind of like if God commanded everyone to fly to Alpha Centauri and said anyone who doesn’t make it there will be thrown into the lake of fire for all eternity. Then He gives some people a ride to Alpha Centauri in a spaceship and leaves the rest to make it there on their own. Is it just that those who were left behind are condemned to suffer for all eternity for not being capable of meeting this impossible expectation even tho there were more than enough seats on the ship that took the others there?

Now here’s the real situation, God has made a way for ALL to be saved. He provided the ship and allows EVERYONE to board it. The problem is some choose not to and as a result of their own choice they will seal their own fate on judgement day. Anyone who desires to repent will be enabled to do so by The Father.

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:7-16‬ ‭NASB

 

[1Reformedman]

Standard non-answer - I.E. "you just don't understand".

NO you won't put down your flawed presuppositionalism argument. predestination is found all through the bible Bob and Jeremiah 29:11 debunks the idea that God's plans for anything to include his choice of the elect and the plans for them is somehow arbitrary just because God does not tell you why and how he determined to save the elect. He did it according to the whole counsel of his will and he did so before the foundation of the world and that is all you need to know and that is something you need to accept because it is 100% biblically accurate.

God did not look down into the future and see who would choose him and then elect them from that premise. Because if the did that would prove far more than you would want it to prove. It would make God a respecter of persons because he chose the elect because of something they did in the future. That would mean that they were saved by their own merit and merit doesn't earn one salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The word hell was just an example of how when we read in English we most often use westernized thinking instead of applying Greek thought from the original language. That is the problem many folks make when eisegeting the word of God instead of exegeting it. Understanding how Greek grammar, and Hebrew grammar for that matter, works will greatly increase your biblical understanding of the context when you read a passage in the bible.

Yes but I really need to know how understanding the Greek helps me to see how John 15:1-10 doesn’t contradict eternal security because I’ve already studied the Greek words and found them to be even more evidence in support of conditional salvation. So I’m very interested to know exactly which Greek words I appear to be misunderstanding here.

 

[Albion]

and the robot argument was debunked 400 years ago

Maybe, but I'm still reading it. I think it was posted by several different members just the last time I was involved in a thread with this topic.

 

[1Reformedman]

Matthew 25:v.41
41 Then shall JESUS say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye CURSED, into everlasting FIRE, prepared for the Devil and his messengers:

that phrase is Aionion tou PYR (Everlasting fire) it is not Hades nor is it limnene tou pyros but it does describe what the lake for fire is because it is an attribute thereof but that fire isn't a literal fire like some erroneously assert.



.

 

[Albion]

And so this thread shakes out they way they always do, with 6-12 Calvinists ganging up on 2-3 non-Calvinists

That may be the balance of forces this time, but I assure you that it often is the reverse.

 

[Oseas]

that phrase is Aionion tou PYR (Everlasting fire) it is not Hades nor is it limnene tou pyros but it does describe what the lake for fire is because it is an attribute thereof but that fire isn't a literal fire like some erroneously assert.
.

Do you know what kind of FIRE is that?

 

[BNR32FAN]

that phrase is Aionion tou PYR (Everlasting fire) it is not Hades nor is it limnene tou pyros but it does describe what the lake for fire is because it is an attribute thereof but that fire isn't a literal fire like some erroneously assert.



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Did you read my post 213? I’m anxious to discuss how God’s judgement on the unelected can be considered a justified judgement.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

God did not look down into the future and see who would choose him and then elect them from that premise.

Since he already KNEW THAT NOBODY would "choose Him", since without HIS INTERVENTION, NOBODY COMES to a saving relationship with Him. If HE doesn't draw - we stay lost.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Do you know what kind of FIRE is that?

WHat kind of "Fire" can burn a "spirit"????

 

[1Reformedman]

Yes but I really need to know how understanding the Greek helps me to see how John 15:1-10 doesn’t contradict eternal security because I’ve already studied the Greek words and found them to be even more evidence in support of conditional salvation. So I’m very interesting to know exactly which Greek words I appear to be misunderstanding here.

If you want to know that then there are websites on the internet that are just for that. They expand on it and show you how greek thought works. Salvation is not conditional. It is unconditional. You can do nothing to obtain salvation by your own merit. You have to do nothing to obtain it. When God changes you on the inside the rest, to include believing and repenting and "accepting Christ" just falls in line as he designed to do. Jesu was very clear in John 6. He said that God draws the elect to him and he said the father had already given them to him. PAST TENSE. All of the elect who haven't been saved yet are unknowingly awaiting God's regeneration.

 

[1Reformedman]

Since he already KNEW THAT NOBODY would "choose Him", since without HIS INTERVENTION, NOBODY COMES to a saving relationship with Him. If HE doesn't draw - we stay lost.

God only draws the elect, no one else. Those he elected before the foundation of the world began WILL COME to Jesus. John 6

 

[Bob Carabbio]

And so this thread shakes out they way they always do, with 6-12 Calvinists ganging up on 2-3 non-Calvinists

I never expected anything else. Standard "explanation": "You don't understand".

 

[Bob Carabbio]

God only draws the elect, no one else. Those he elected before the foundation of the world began WILL COME to Jesus. John 6

Be more specific about John 6.

 

[1Reformedman]

Do you know what kind of FIRE is that?

Its not the refiner's fire, because there is no chance for salvation and a holy relationship with God after the white throne judgment. That salvation and holy relationship is required to begin while one is still living in this physical world.

 

[1Reformedman]

Be more specific about John 6.

What about it? John 6:37-65 tell us that the father effectually draws the elect to the messiah and all of those whom he draws he has already given to the messiah via his act of predestination before the foundation of the world began and all who he gives to Jesus will come to him and he won't lose a single one of them except the son of perdition. So not only do we see predestination we also see the assurance of salvation.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Its not the refiner's fire, because there is no chance for salvation and a holy relationship with God after the white throne judgment. That salvation and holy relationship is required to begin while one is still living in this physical world.

No matter what any other post says, this one is both necessary and real and TRUTH!

It is extraordinary and should not be but is, how many times the universalists try to get their false teachings into everyplace to bring people down!
(IF that's what the purpose was in asking what the fire was in the post you replied to !)
Thanks!
And Jesus' Shalom to you and your household TODAY !

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Can you prove your statement?

Don't have to. That's what TULIP teaches, plain as day.
We're Totally depraved, our "Election" is Unconditional (arbitrary), The Atonement is LIMITED to the Elect, God's grace is IRRESISTIBLE, and the Christian WILL PERSEVERE (OSAS).

What part of that is in error according to the "Reformed Paradigm"???

 

[Bob Carabbio]

What about it? John 6:37-65 tell us that the father effectually draws the elect to the messiah and all of those whom he draws he has already given to the messiah via his act of predestination before the foundation of the world began and all who he gives to Jesus will come to him and he won't lose a single one of them except the son of perdition. So not only do we see predestination we also see the assurance of salvation.

"EXCEPT" but I guess holding on to 11 out of 12 is still pretty good odds.