Constantine created Christianity

[Daniel Marsh]

2Ti_2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

They only had the OT to study. All the disciples couldn't get around to all 5,000 people accepting Christ in one day. And it is true they didn't---but what did Christ do with His disciples after the resurrection on the road to Emmaus?

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

It is there for those who want to see. U don't believe in doing away with any of the word of God. That is like---what part of God do you want to do away with?

Why would they need to get around to all 5,000? Peter's sermon was heard by all who converted. Also, as elders were appointed they could make home visits.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

There is no 8th day---check any calendar.
On the first day of the week in Acts 20:7 was a meeting on Saturday night, the First day of the week began (as all days did in Israel) at Sundown. That is why Sabbath starts sundown Fri. night. That was instituted by Jesus at creation week--- The disciples were meeting after Sundown, sat. night --it was not a Sunday morning worship service, it was a Sat. night meeting to say goodbye to Paul. There is no verse in the entire bible that states GOD has changed the 7th day Sabbath to the 1st day of the week. As soon as you find that verse, you shut up all Sabbatarians. The 7th day Sabbath was instituted at creation week by Jesus Himself (He was the creator of all things, John 1) What God has instituted, not once but several times (creation week, then twice at Mt. Zion after Moses broke the 1st set of tablets)
What God has written with His own hand in stone no man has any right to change. You are free to think otherwise and go by what man has decided---I will not.

Sabbath keepers throughout history

• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The First Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Second Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Third Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Fourth Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Fifth Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Sixth Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Seventh Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Eighth Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Ninth Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Tenth Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Eleventh Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Twelveth Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Thirteenth Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Fourteenth Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Fifteenth Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Sixteenth Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Seventeenth Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Eighteenth Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Nineteenth Century A.D.
• Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Twentieth Century A.D.

scroll down to post of eight day.

7 + 1 = 8 which is just another way of saying the first day.

I posted many historical sources that demonstrates that the eight day was just another way the early church referred to the first day as the Lords Day.

Here are a few,

"Chapter 13
23. The Lord's day, however, has been made known not to the Jews, but to Christians, by the resurrection of the Lord, and from Him it began to have the festive character which is proper to it. For the souls of the pious dead are, indeed, in a state of repose before the resurrection of the body, but they are not engaged in the same active exercises as shall engage the strength of their bodies when restored. Now, of this condition of active exercise the eighth day (which is also the first of the week) is a type, because it does not put an end to that repose, but glorifies it. For with the reunion of the body no hindrance of the soul's rest returns, because in the restored body there is no corruption: for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:53 Wherefore, although the sacramental import of the 8th number, as signifying the resurrection, was by no means concealed from the holy men of old who were filled with the spirit of prophecy (for in the title of Psalms [vi. and xii.] we find the words for the eighth, and infants were circumcised on the eighth day; and in Ecclesiastes it is said, with allusion to the two covenants, Give a portion to seven, and also to eight ); nevertheless before the resurrection of the Lord, it was reserved and hidden, and the sabbath alone was appointed to be observed, because before that event there was indeed the repose of the dead (of which the sabbath rest was a type), but there was not any instance of the resurrection of one who, rising from the dead, was no more to die, and over whom death should no longer have dominion; this being done in order that, from the time when such a resurrection did take place in the Lord's own body (the Head of the Church being the first to experience that which His body, the Church, expects at the end of time), the day upon which He rose, the eighth day namely (which is the same with the first of the week), should begin to be observed as the Lord's day. The same reason enables us to understand why, in regard to the day of keeping the passover, on which the Jews were commanded to kill and eat a lamb, which was most clearly a foreshadowing of the Lord's Passion, there was no injunction given to them that they should take the day of the week into account, waiting until the sabbath was past, and making the beginning of the third week of the moon coincide with the beginning of the third week of the first month; the reason being, that the Lord might rather in His own Passion declare the significance of that day, as He had come also to declare the mystery of the day now known as the Lord's day, the eighth namely, which is also the first of the week. ... in order to connect its observance with the more sacred associations of this solemn season, and at the same time to prevent its being confounded with baptism in any way, have selected for this ceremony either the eighth day itself, or that on which the third eighth day occurs, because of the great significance of the number three in many holy mysteries."
CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 55 (St. Augustine)

(Cyprian of Carthage) > Epistle 58
"For because the eighth day, that is, the first day after the sabbath, was to be that on which the Lord should rise again, and should quicken us, and give us circumcision of the spirit, the eighth day, that is, the first day after the sabbath, and the Lord's day, went before in the figure; which figure ceased when by and by the truth came, and spiritual circumcision was given to us." CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle 58 (Cyprian of Carthage)

EPISTLE OF THE APOSTLES.- I [Christ] have come into being on the eighth day which is the day of the Lord.

 

[Albion]

I think a lot of Protestants did at some times.

Who knows? And who knows how many "a lot" means?

But the argument that is usually made by those Conspiracy Theorists is that Constantine altered or perverted Christianity, not that he "created" it as the title of this thread suggests.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Who refutes it ?

What is the quote?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

This newadvent.org site looks very Catholic. With "Fathers" and beautification of saints. All the stuff I do not believe in. Are you Catholic? Just as you don't trust my sources, I don't trust any of yours.

I am not Catholic, just a Historical Christian. Also, the Fathers there were not translated by a Catholic.

Thanks for asking friend.
Daniel

 

[mmksparbud]

Why would they need to get around to all 5,000? Peter's sermon was heard by all who converted. Also, as elders were appointed they could make home visits.

There was nothing to tell them, except that Jesus was the sacrificial Lamb now and had they studied the sanctsary services, they should have seen that. It is the gentiles that needed extra help.

I am not Catholic, just a Historical Christian. Also, the Fathers there were not translated by a Catholic.

Thanks for asking friend.
Daniel

You are so into what the so called "early fathers" have to say that you ignore what the bible has to say and actual history. There is no 8th day---it is a Catholic concept. I take no interest in what those Catholic fathers had to say as far as basing any of my believes in them. The bible is where my doctrines come from. I do not read your stuff---means nothing to me, esp. when it contradicts the bible.

 

[Deade]

Who knows? And who knows how many "a lot" means?

But the argument that is usually made by those Conspiracy Theorists is that Constantine altered or perverted Christianity, not that he "created" it as the title of this thread suggests.

Is changing something not the same as creating a false, counterfeit version? He may not have started the false religion but he got the government involved.

 

[prodromos]

Good grief, there were Sabbath keepers throughout history, long before any SDA!---nobody wants to admit it!

Sabbath keepers throughout history

None of these are evidence that they only honoured the Sabbath exclusively, and broader context would demonstrate they also worshipped primarily on Sunday. The quotes are consistent with how the Orthodox Church continues to view the Sabbath.

 

[The Liturgist]

None of these are evidence that they only honoured the Sabbath exclusively, and broader context would demonstrate they also worshipped primarily on Sunday. The quotes are consistent with how the Orthodox Church continues to view the Sabbath.

I have spent a lot of time looking into this, and I believe you are entirely correct. There are also several specific errors regarding denominations in the link provided by @mmksparbud

• The Syriac Aramaic-speaking Church of the East is still extant today; although it is smaller than it once was, it survives in Iraq, Iran and India, and in the diaspora, and there is a minor schism in it between the Ancient Church of the East, which uses the Julian calendar, and the larger group, the Assyrian Church of the East, which uses the Gregorian calendar. Regardless of which one we are talking about, the idea that the Church of the East is “sabbatarian” is categorically untrue. The primary liturgy in the Assyrian church is the Sunday morning Eucharist, the Liturgy of Addai and Mari, and this has been the case since at least the second century. Due to the shared language, at some points in its history this church has had very close relations with the Syriac Orthodox Church, where the main Liturgy also is on Sunday (although liturgies can be served on Wednesday, Friday and Saturday as well); this has never been a controversy between the two churches.
• The Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church, referred to here using the archaic term “Abyssinian”, while one of the most ethnically Jewish churches, has always been a part of the Coptic Orthodox Church, and again, the main worship service is on Sunday. There are, like in most Eastern churches, liturgies on Saturday morning, but the centrality of the Sunday service is emphasized by the Saturday evening Vespers, and also the increased length of the Sunday service (Ethiopian church services in particular are incredibly long; you can arrive in some Ethiopian churches at 4 AM and worship until noon; in Coptic churches, the liturgy tends to be two and a half hours in length, and is preceded by the 1st, 3rd and 6th Hours, and the Morning Raising of Incense, which is kind of like Matins).
• The Waldensians are of particular interest to me. However, it is not true that they are of Apostolic origin; they are unknown in the Patristic literature and no historical record of them exists in the first millenium. Additionally, the Waldensians expressly rejected Augustinian Apostolic Succession, believing that any righteous man could be a pastor (there is a problem with this, and that is it is potentially Donatist, but there is also a potential solution which is of interest to me). There are no credible documents indicating the Waldensians worshipped on Saturday instead of Sunday, and the ease with which the Waldensians embraced the theology of the Reformed churches in Switzerland further indicates this was not a major point of doctrine for them.
• Regarding the Greek and Bulgarian churches, these are Eastern Orthodox churches, which have always correctly understood Saturday to be the day on which our Lord reposed in the tomb, a memorial of the Great Sabbath, after having recreated humanity through His triumphant and victorious passion on the cross, when he declared “It is finished.” Sunday however is the primary holy day in these churches however, as it is the feast of the Resurrection, the mystical Eighth Day, symbolizing the world to come. Like the Copts, Ethiopian and Syriac Orthodox, they do sometimes have the Eucharistic liturgy on a Saturday, especially in Lent and the three weeks leading up to it, where the Saturdays are occasions for the memorial of the deceased relatives of the congregation, who are reposing just as our Lord reposed - although the Orthodox do not believe in “soul sleep,” and also Lazarus Saturday (before Palm Sunday) and Holy Saturday (Before Easter, or Pascha, as it is known). The latter service is a vesperal liturgy, and vespers or in the Bulgarian and other Slavonic traditions, and on Mount Athos in Greece and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, Vespers is combined with Compline and Matins to form “All Night Vigils”, which is a 90 minute to two hour long service of preparation for the main Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, which is also between 90 minutes and 2 hours 30 minutes in length.
• The Nazarenes mentioned in connection with the Greeks were not related to the Church of the Nazarene today, which is a Wesleyan Holiness denomination. Instead, the Nazarenes were a sect like the Ebionites, that rejected substantial portions of the teachings of Paul the Apostle, and believed that adherence to the Torah was a requirement for salvation; and were generally regarded as heretical, for those reasons.
• The Waldensians were not historically related to the Baptists in any respect. Rather, following a series of genocidal persecutions in France and the north Italian state of Piedmont, they settled in Switzerland, and later returned to Italy; they became a Reformed church that practices infant baptism, and they are now the largest Protestant denomination in Italy. Some of them did settle in the US and formed a connection with the Moravians, if I recall correctly.
• Bohemia, better known today as the Czech Republic, was Eastern Orthodox until conquered by Austria, and the Moravian church, and my favorite reformer Jan Hus, have always had Sunday as their principle day of worship. There was not a connection with the Waldensians until the 18th century. Indeed, the Moravian adherence with the historic Eastern Orthodox approach is even explicitly stated later in your own document: “MORAVIA-Count Zinzendorf - In 1738 Zinzendorf wrote of his keeping the Sabbath thus: "That I have employed the Sabbath for rest many years already, and our Sunday for the proclamation of the gospel."
• There were actual Jews in Goa, and there still are in Kerala; it was from these Kochin Jews that the first disciples of the Apostle Thomas in India, known as Nasranis (no connection to the Nazarene sect mentioned earlier, or to the modern day Nazarene denomination), were chiefly drawn. The Nasranis were a part of the Church of the East and later joined the Syriac Orthodox Church, neither of which is Sabbatarian.
• The list again claims Sabbatarianism among Eastern Orthodox churches, this time among the Serbian Orthodox and Romanian Orthodox, while quoting a Russian Orthodox source who criticized a Sabbatarian sect (which is actually called the Molokans). The traditions of the Russian Orthodox and Serbian Orthodox are virtually identical, and in terms of doctrine there is complete agreement between these churches and the Romanian Orthodox church. Some Romanians in the west of the country, the region known as Transylvania, and also the northern portion of Walachia, were forcibly converted to Roman Catholicism.
• Geschichte der Juden in Polen is referring to the Khazars of Crimea, who historically adhered to Karaite Judaism.
• As a Congregationalist, I can assure you the historic Congregationalist church at no time worshipped on Saturday instead of Sunday.

In general, virtually every claim made on that page is either erroneous or taken out of context in a misleading manner, or sourced from dubious works, for example, a History of the Baptists by a known member of the Landmarkist movement, whose claimed Baptist history is agreed to be completely spurious. Another completely inaccurate source quoted was the “Historia Jacobatum,” which by Jacobites is referring to the Oriental Orthodox (Coptic, Syriac, Ethiopian and Armenian). The Armenian Orthodox have a canon that prohibits celebrating the Eucharistic liturgy, or Badarak, on any day other than Sunday or feast days. Only a handful of monks and Seminarians follow the Divine Office on the other days of the week.

Really, the scholarship in that article was not very good. It also failed to go into any real detail on the Molokans of Russia, who actually were Sabbatarian, who emerged in the early 18th century. Today, the Molokans are one of three main Sabbatarian denominations, the others being the SDA and the Seventh Day Baptists.

 

[Concord1968]

for example, a History of the Baptists by a known member of the Landmarkist movement, whose claimed Baptist history is agreed to be completely spurious.

AKA "Trail of Blood". I don't think very many orthodox Baptists believe that any more. Maybe a few fringe IFBs.

 

[lismore]

You seem to think that it was the church doing all that. It wasn't.

The mistake the church made was being seduced by worldly wealth and power, to allow an unqualified warlord to pontificate and preside over their deliberations. If you even read the qualifications for an elder or a deacon in the New Testament the Emperor would not meet those. God Bless

 

[Not David]

At this point I am seeing separation of Church and State as a bad thing. Is it true that Thomas Jefferson was a deist ?

He said Paul the Apostle corrupted the Gospel and didn't believe Christ was God.

 

[Not David]

I understand being wary of some Byzantine emperors (some were outright heretics and sided with Arians), but this meme about Constantine is silly. He helped stopped the slaughter of Christians. You could do worse. The Christians of his day were grateful. Do you think they actually enjoyed being flayed alive?

Probably a Persecution Complex is involved.

 

[Not David]

The mistake the church made was being seduced by worldly wealth and power, to allow an unqualified warlord to pontificate and preside over their deliberations. If you even read the qualifications for an elder or a deacon in the New Testament the Emperor would not meet those. God Bless

The Separation of Church and State is a modernist idea.

 

[mmksparbud]

None of these are evidence that they only honoured the Sabbath exclusively, and broader context would demonstrate they also worshipped primarily on Sunday. The quotes are consistent with how the Orthodox Church continues to view the Sabbath.

I never said it was honored exclusively! It's just that people think Sunday was honored exclusively unless you were Jewish which is far from true!! And many insist that it is only an SDA thing when it has been kept throughout history---God has always kept His remnant.

 

[mmksparbud]

And I am still waiting for the verse that says GOD has changed the day of worship from His stated 7th day to the 1st day! No one else has the right to change it!

Without a "thus saith the Lord"---His commandment stands!

 

[prodromos]

I never said it was honored exclusively!

Yet you immediately go on to say the following:

And I am still waiting for the verse that says GOD has changed the day of worship from His stated 7th day to the 1st day! No one else has the right to change it!

The majority of the churches referenced by the quotes in the links you provided all worshipped primarily on Sunday. They were not "Sabbath keepers", but worshipped on any day of the week including the Sabbath but especially on Sunday which was known by the Christians as "the Lord's day".
"The Lord's day" was also known as "the eighth day" because when God rose from the dead after resting in the tomb on the seventh (Sabbath) day, it was a new day which broke free from the endless cycle of seven days. The eighth day is not followed by night, but is an eternal day. The glorious eighth day on which Christ rose from the dead has many types in the Old Testament. I'm surprised you cannot see that.

 

[lismore]

The Separation of Church and State is a modernist idea.

Philippians 3:20

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

And I am still waiting for the verse that says GOD has changed the day of worship from His stated 7th day to the 1st day! No one else has the right to change it!

Without a "thus saith the Lord"---His commandment stands!

and He won't ever contradict His Own Torah, never, no , never.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yet you immediately go on to say the following:

The majority of the churches referenced by the quotes in the links you provided all worshipped primarily on Sunday. They were not "Sabbath keepers", but worshipped on any day of the week including the Sabbath but especially on Sunday which was known by the Christians as "the Lord's day".
"The Lord's day" was also known as "the eighth day" because when God rose from the dead after resting in the tomb on the seventh (Sabbath) day, it was a new day which broke free from the endless cycle of seven days. The eighth day is not followed by night, but is an eternal day. The glorious eighth day on which Christ rose from the dead has many types in the Old Testament. I'm surprised you cannot see that.

I am still waiting for that verse!! Unless there is a "thus saith the Lord"---the commandment stands. The whole world can do as they please---I am waiting for the Lord to say He changed it. That Christ rose from the dead on the 1st day of the week in no way shape or form says---the 4th commandment is now to be on the 1st day of the week. It means we have a day of celebration for His resurrection---changes nothing about the fact that Jesus Himself created the 7th day as a sign of His Creative power.

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Maybe Jesus will come the 2nd time on a Thursday----does that mean we will then worsip on the 5th day of the week?

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.