Is Calvinism Just?

[claninja]

It’s still an unjust severe punishment tho.

The wages of sin is death. God has set the standard and his standards are just.

It’s unwarranted if the expectation is impossible to achieve.

Of course it's impossible to achieve election on our own merit. if we could of our own merit, there would have been no need of God's intervention through the death of his son.

 

[redleghunter]

No actually I just understand from 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 that it is God’s will/desire that all men come to repentance and that none should perish and that God has made this possible to all who will accept His offer of grace.

Then we should all believe the Unitarian Universalists. But we know they are wrong.

 

[MDC]

Why? If faith doesn't save you, why does it have to be irresistibly imposed upon you? And a gift isn't a gift if it can't be refused. God isn't in the mafia. Irresistibly causing someone to do something is not a gift, it's brainwashing, or mental rape.

Ok. Faith is the result of being regenerated

 

[claninja]

So to be just, God calls everyone at some point in their lives.

No, God does not call everyone. How many billions have died never knowing the true God of Israel or Jesus Christ?

Is loving God and man “work?” How about having hope? Is that work? Man has his part and it’s not work but it’s real and God has his part.

Yes, as a sinner, I can attest that love is work. Love is not just saying "I love you", love involves action. Love involves sacrifice. Loving God and loving your neighbor is the sum of the law, which was based on works to receive earthly blessings (not salvation) under the old covenant.

But man's works do not save, only God can do that.

God strengthened Pharaoh’s resolve after the man had decided to harden his own heart. Otherwise who do you know whose heart God hardened so he’d go to hell? Btw, this is not to his glory but shame, which is why we don’t believe it.

God knew prior to the foundation of the world that Pharoah's heart would be hardened in order for God's glory to be made known. God created Pharoah for that very purpose. Scripture literally states God hardens whomever He wills.

Romans 9;17-18
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

After they had hardened their own hearts.

Incorrect. God hardened Israel for a very specific purpose, to crucify the son and bring salvation to the world.

Romans 11:7-8 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written,“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.”

Who made them such vessels? They did.

God did
Romans 9:20-21 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”g Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

Chosen for Heaven? No Chosen for hell? no

Chosen to be holy and blameless...are you?

I absolutely agree with you.

That’s the “punishment” the wicked and atheists hope for. I’ve talked to them and that’s the reward they anticipate. No judgement and no justice.

I doubt that when an unbeliever stands before the throne of Christ, they will "hope" for eternal cessation.

The wages of sin is death. that is the justice of God.

How do you deal with writing “whosoever” but believe it’s not true? You as a Calvinist think “only some.”

Just that, all those that believe, will have eternal life.

 

[Kenny'sID]

It’s a despicable tactic of deception intended to discredit a person and their point of view by formulating the most obtuse interpretation possible of what the person said that is all to common here on CF

I've used nearly the same wording in the past because that's exactly what it is, dishonest means to discredit, and as I've also said over and over again, it takes deception to defend deception.

Same principle as it takes more lies to cover a lie.

 

[MDC]

Why do Calvinists and the like like to keep saying that? Can you please show us one person here that ever said we could gain salvation through works?

It's a common and untrue statement, just the kind of statements that are necessary to defend what is untrue.

The very fact that you believe salvation is not all of grace.

 

[redleghunter]

I think it’s both great and sad at the same time how many Calvinists refuse to answer my questions.

Answering questions with a false premise just adds to the error. Sometimes it is like answering the fake media.

 

[Kenny'sID]

But man's works do not save, only God can do that.

Who said they did? Why do you all keep saying something that is completely made up. If I'm wrong, please show me where the claim was made that works save?

 

[The Liturgist]

Then we should all believe the Unitarian Universalists. But we know they are wrong.

There is a dangerous emergence of non-Unitarian Universalism occurring in the Anglican and Eastern Orthodox communities, led by Dr. David Bentley Hart. Now Dr. Hart wrote an excellent takedown of Richard Dawkins, Atheist Delusions, but on the subject of soteriology, he fails to realize that Universalism is a form of monergism, which is a antithetical to Eastern Orthodox, or Wesleyan-Arminian, soteriology.

Now Calvinism is also Monergist, but it, unlike Pelagianism and Universalism, is not contradictory to scripture, and as a result, I greatly enjoy fellowship with Calvinists, even though I am more of an Arminian. But it frustrates me to see a brilliant theologian like Dr. Hart promoting a doctrine which is contrary both to scripture and to one of the central dogmas of his own church, that being synergist soteriology.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

He said he must master it. According to Calvin’s theology Cain would be incapable of accomplishing this unless he was elected by God.

Really?
If so, I think Calvin should have sought to learn from God, instead of trying to tell God that God got it wrong ! ...

 

[The Liturgist]

Answering questions with a false premise just adds to the error. Sometimes it is like answering the fake media.

In Japan, they have a word used in addition to “yes” or “no” when the question is invalid, “mu,” which I do not believe is commonly a part of the culture today, but it appears in historic texts and religious texts relating to Buddhism and their indigenous Shinto and Shugendo religions. Just an interesting fact.

My understanding, which might be wrong, as I am not up on modern Japanese culture, is that in a contemporary context, if someone answered your question with “mu” in face to face or telephonic conversation, it would be considered a bit rude. However, I have been on some English speaking internet fora and mailing lists where “mu” has been adopted as a default answer to a question that the person asked feels is invalid or unanswerable. Food for thought.

 

[Kenny'sID]

The very fact that you believe salvation is not all of grace.

Please answer the following two questions:

Does the following really imply faith only to get to heaven? Or do you think dead faith is enough to get to heaven?

James 2:26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[redleghunter]

Of course not. Your dodging the question here because you know where it leads. Why do you fear answering my questions? Is it because you know that your answer will only confirm my position?

You have not answered my questions. I asked you the election questions because your comments continue to assert that God does not Sovereignly elect His people. God Sovereignly electing His people is actually Biblical and yet you have not addressed it, but instead ask a different question.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It means what it says. Only one way to interpret that. The view you are advocating of what’s just and unjust is centered around the philosophy of fallen men and not scripture

Of course it means what it says but what does it say? I know you read it as God will choose whoever He wants to choose and I don’t disagree with that but that still leaves the question who does God want to choose? See, these verses in no way imply that God does not choose everyone who will repent and endure to the end. Romans 9 is about God accepting the Gentiles into His covenant regardless of their disobedience. Hence not according to he who wills or he who runs. Then there’s the question I’ve asked so many times here in this thread and finally one person got it correct. How does God endure with much patience the vessels of wrath? Is He enduring with much patience by forsaking them to the lake of fire or is He enduring with much patience by giving them every opportunity to repent?

 

[BNR32FAN]

The wages of sin is death. God has set the standard and his standards are just.





Of course it's impossible to achieve election on our own merit. if we could of our own merit, there would have been no need of God's intervention through the death of his son.

So it is just to punish the unelected in the lake of fire for all eternity for failure to meet God’s impossible expectations? That’s what Calvin’s theology teaches. The unelected are completely incapable of meeting God’s expectations.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, as a sinner, I can attest that love is work. Love is not just saying "I love you", love involves action. Love involves sacrifice. Loving God and loving your neighbor is the sum of the law, which was based on works to receive earthly blessings (not salvation) under the old covenant.

But man's works do not save, only God can do that.

Then you can be saved without love?

 

[redleghunter]

Because according to Calvin’s doctrine of unconditional grace we can do nothing to influence God’s decision regarding election. So in essence God’s judgement would be the result of failing to meet His impossible expectations thereby making His judgement unjust.

Another false premise. All mankind is condemned. It would be just for God to let all of us suffer what we deserve.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Then you can be saved without love?

< shrugs > one interesting hit >> searching "saved without love" >>>

Commentary on 1&2 Peter, 1,2,3 John, Jude: Bible Study Notes ...

https://books.google.com › books
David Pratte - 2019 - ‎Religion
Once again this demonstrates that we cannot be saved without obeying commands, for if we could then we would be saved without love! To claim we can love ...

 

[BNR32FAN]

Then we should all believe the Unitarian Universalists. But we know they are wrong.

Why is it that God desires everyone to repent and believe and that none should perish yet He didn’t bestow everyone with “irresistible” grace? That’s a very easy question to answer. Because God desires our love. Love is a gift given freely of one’s own free will. The entire purpose for this world is to cultivate and separate those who will choose to love God of their own free will from those who will reject Him of their own free will. This is why God desires all to repent and be saved and why all are not saved. Without free will love cannot be genuine. This in no way is an attack on God’s sovereignty if it is the way God has declared it shall be. This also explains why God’s judgment against the unelected is just because they persitantly rejected Him of their own free will sealing their own fate in the lake of fire.

 

[Dave L]

Arminians don't believe that they save themselves in any way shape or form.

What happens if you decide not to believe?