BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

[Saint Steven]

Well, honestly, I mostly read through Beecher's assertions and tried to check up on some of the parts most relevant to the six schools.

I don't think anyone would claim that Universalism was a purely modern invention, though, as everyone agrees there were at least a few in the early church that taught it. The more debatable point is how many there were. As for the New Testament church, well, that depends heavily on your interpretation of the applicable New Testament texts.

Yes, that's a good question.
And I think UR is attempting to harmonize the rest of the Bible to these texts, whereas the Damnationists dismiss them as not meaning what they say due to over all biblical "context".

UR is left to reverse engineer how all this fits together based on the final outcome seen. (the complete restoration of all creation) The perfect end to the love story of God and his creation.

We have to bear in mind that the Bible is essentially a Damnationist text. So, from that perspective, these verses are quite a find. It seems they got past the editors.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I decided to post this here, this thread being the current hotbed of universalist discussion. I read an article on the www this morning from the Smithsonian...about Krampus. He seems to be the evil twin of Saint Nick, just as we have good and bad, heaven and hell, Saint Nick and Krampus. It's a dualistic thing, but evil will eventually be swallowed up in good. Anyway, Krampus is supposedly the son of the Norse goddess/ogress Hel. Link here:

The Origin of Krampus, Europe's Evil Twist on Santa | Travel | Smithsonian

 

[Saint Steven]

I decided to post this here, this thread being the current hotbed of universalist discussion. I read an article on the www this morning from the Smithsonian...about Krampus. He seems to be the evil twin of Saint Nick, just as we have good and bad, heaven and hell, Saint Nick and Krampus. It's a dualistic thing, but evil will eventually be swallowed up in good. Anyway, Krampus is supposedly the son of the Norse goddess/ogress Hel. Link here:

The Origin of Krampus, Europe's Evil Twist on Santa | Travel | Smithsonian

Wow. That makes our Halloween festivities look like a Sunday school picnic.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Exactly!
The 1st resurrection is of the saved---and we are all priests of God and of Christ----obviously the 2nd resurrection is of the unsaved---the nations --they are not of Christ and will have the 2nd death.

Rev_2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev_21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Yes, the nations and the reprobates go into the LoF for the 2nd death after the GWTJ, we've established that. What you haven't explained is how the nations (da sum of dem dat was saved, if you must) emerge repentant in v.21:24-26 and are worthy to get Christ's healing treatment in v.22:2.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

The more debatable point is how many there were.

Well according to Dr Ilaria Ramelli, an eminent contemporary Catholic patristics scholar who has written a gigantic work on universalism among others, it was ubiquitous. But because it's meat not milk, many of the eminent fathers kept it rather sotto voce.

 

[mmksparbud]

Yes, the nations and the reprobates go into the LoF for the 2nd death after the GWTJ, we've established that. What you haven't explained is how the nations (da sum of dem dat was saved, if you must) emerge repentant in v.21:24-26 and are worthy to get Christ's healing treatment in v.22:2.

And who says they do? The bible does not show anyone coming out of the lake of fire---they are all ashes. The Holy City, the earth remade is for the saved only. The lost have no 2nd chance after death. They get the 2nd death---not the 2nd life.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I decided to post this here, this thread being the current hotbed of universalist discussion. I read an article on the www this morning from the Smithsonian...about Krampus. He seems to be the evil twin of Saint Nick, just as we have good and bad, heaven and hell, Saint Nick and Krampus. It's a dualistic thing, but evil will eventually be swallowed up in good. Anyway, Krampus is supposedly the son of the Norse goddess/ogress Hel. Link here:

The Origin of Krampus, Europe's Evil Twist on Santa | Travel | Smithsonian

Krampus' current day job is in a utilities company debt recovery call centre. His resume includes eating small children, riding the yule goat and executive roles in reputable financial institutions.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

And who says they do? The bible does not show anyone coming out of the lake of fire---they are all ashes. The Holy City, the earth remade is for the saved only. The lost have no 2nd chance after death. They get the 2nd death---not the 2nd life.

How do the nations reappear (21:24-26) and go for healing (22:2) after they are consumed by fire (20:9) and/or thrown into the lake of fire (20:15)?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I'm called "Calvinist" because I agree with his soteriology even though I part ways with him on sacramentology & ecclesiology (esp. in the area of church discipline). However, I'm not so quick to judge or condemn:

" Augustine here alludes to the sentence pronounced against Pelagius by the Council of Diospolis, in 415 (P.L., XLIV, col. 325). He moreover recurs to the subject in many passages of his writings, and in City of God XXI sets himself earnestly to prove the eternity of punishment as against the Platonist and Origenist error concerning its intrinsically purgatorial character. We note, further, that the doctrine of the apokatastasis was held in the East, not only by St. Gregory of Nyssa, but also by St. Gregory of Nazianzus as well; "De seipso", 566 (P.G., XXXVII, col. 1010), but the latter, though he asks the question, finally decides neither for nor against it, but rather leaves the answer to God."

Some things I don't feel the need to know, and "I don't know" is a valid and acceptable answer on a fair number of subjects. I can leave this one to God.

Have you read Augustine's justifications of eternal punishment in City of God XXI? When Augustine is on fire, you know about it. Let's just say he was having a tepid yogurt week there.

May I also suggest it's not about head knowledge, but true knowledge that comes through faith, hope and love. Everyone wants Jesus to draw them a diagram lol. Well it is there in scripture, but we needs get to it through faith, and not of our own.

Are you going to be lukewarm about it man? Come on, start by hoping for the salvation of all, see where it takes you as you walk around or read scripture.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

"Because of the sacrifice of the Messiah, his blood poured out on the altar of the Cross, we’re a free people—free of penalties and punishments chalked up by all our misdeeds.

And not just barely free, either. Abundantly free!

He thought of everything, provided for everything we could possibly need, letting us in on the plans he took such delight in making. He set it all out before us in Christ, a long-range plan in which everything would be brought together and summed up in him, everything in deepest heaven, everything on planet earth.

It’s in Christ that we find out who we are and what we are living for. Long before we first heard of Christ and got our hopes up, he had his eye on us, had designs on us for glorious living, part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone.

It’s in Christ that you, once you heard the truth and believed it (this Message of your salvation), found yourselves home free—signed, sealed, and delivered by the Holy Spirit. This signet from God is the first installment on what’s coming, a reminder that we’ll get everything God has planned for us, a praising and glorious life." -The Message-

That colourblind analogy is so apt, brother. When ppl don't believe in a God who's perfect and absolute, they're just in a 'greyscale' state/ place. Come Jesus and heal the lepers!

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Good point.
Of course The Church doesn't always include The Churched.

By the way, good to see you on this forum, the other end of the street from Conspiracy, but not entirely dissimilar.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Deception by the false gospel bringers is not stopped.

Good news becomes false when it's actually bad news, considering the final outcome. The 'appreciable risk of damnation' for all that you believe subtended the work of the cross would detract from the 'slim chance of salvation' (unless you're OSAS, then chances improve) so as to put mankind further back in the red than before.

Safer to have been an atheist before Christ came, the stakes just got raised ad infinitum. This is like casino Christianity Jeff. Double or nothing. Very bad result for all, Jeff, is what damnation is. So this would plainly render the gospel false.

 

[mmksparbud]

How do the nations reappear (21:24-26) and go for healing (22:2) after they are consumed by fire (20:9) and/or thrown into the lake of fire (20:15)?

I have no idea what you are talking about. Those that go into the lake of fire do not come out of it! The new Jerusalem is only or the saved---The wicked are ashes!
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it

The saved have been with Jesus for the 1000 years after His 2nd coming.

 

[FineLinen]

That colourblind analogy is so apt, brother. When ppl don't believe in a God who's perfect and absolute, they're just in a 'greyscale' state/ place. Come Jesus and heal the lepers!

Dear Shrewd: The staggering revelation of our God who is able to bring to pass His purpose to restore into Himself the all is a fact. He completes what He has begun, this is no half baked Plan of His! The Ending is the Beginning, the Author is the Finisher.

I see wonderful hues of colour in Him today. My God what a sight You are!

 

[FineLinen]

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Dear Lady: The call of the Spirit is upward into new dimensions of His glory. Our poor colour blind eyes cannot see but black and white. Ephphatha is our cure!

 

[mmksparbud]

Dear Lady: The call of the Spirit is upward into new dimensions of His glory. Our poor colour blind eyes cannot see but black and white. Ephphatha is our cure!

Well---clear speech has it own reward with the ability of everyone understanding what is being said. You like to sound as though you are highly spiritual and only sound …….

You are all coming up with verses totally out of context and wanting answers that have nothing to do with what you have quoted---the 2nd death is the 2nd death---not the 2nd life. No one comes out of the Lake of Fire unto life eternal with God---they are ashes and the new earth is remade over those ashes---there will be no more sin--no more sinners. When Jesus comes the 2nd time, He comes only for the saved and takes them to heaven for the 1000 years. After the 1000 years the wicked dead are resurrected to face their judgment and the lake of fire cleanses everything. Simple. In either black and white or technicolor.

 

[FineLinen]

Well---clear speech has it own reward with the ability of everyone understanding what is being said. You like to sound as though you are highly spiritual and only sound …….

You are all coming up with verses totally out of context and wanting answers that have nothing to do with what you have quoted---the 2nd death is the 2nd death---not the 2nd life. No one comes out of the Lake of Fire unto life eternal with God---they are ashes and the new earth is remade over those ashes---there will be no more sin--no more sinners. When Jesus comes the 2nd time, He comes only for the saved and takes them to heaven for the 1000 years. After the 1000 years the wicked dead are resurrected to face their judgment and the lake of fire cleanses everything. Simple. In either black and white or technicolor.

Dear Lady: A spiritual man or woman is one who walks by the Spirit & manifests the fruit of the Spirit in their ways. I do aspire to be such a one, perhaps after a few more excursions into His fire it shall be accomplished.

Our God is consuming fire/pur. All will dwell in that fire with Him. The Lake of Pur is the Lake of Theos. The all will be "hurt" by the experience of His holy Presence (minus the overcomer who has been hurt extensively) until there is nothing left to hurt.

Every knee, every tongue, every dimension in antiphonal worship of the Lord

 

[mmksparbud]

Dear Lady: A spiritual man or woman is one who walks by the Spirit & manifests the fruit of the Spirit in their ways. I do aspire to be such a one, perhaps after a few more excursions into His fire it shall be accomplished.

Our God is consuming fire/pur. All will dwell in that fire with Him. The Lake of Pur is the Lake of Theos. The all will be "hurt" by the experience of His holy Presence (minus the overcomer who has been hurt extensively) until there is nothing left to hurt.

Every knee, every tongue, every dimension in antiphonal worship of the Lord

Trying to sound like one and being one are vastly different.
The Holy Spirit never leads to a contradiction of the word of God. The new earth is for the saved only. Eternal life is for the saved only.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You have provided no verse that states anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with God, nor any verse that states eternal life is given to the lost.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Yes, that's a good question.
And I think UR is attempting to harmonize the rest of the Bible to these texts, whereas the Damnationists dismiss them as not meaning what they say due to over all biblical "context".

UR is left to reverse engineer how all this fits together based on the final outcome seen. (the complete restoration of all creation) The perfect end to the love story of God and his creation.

We have to bear in mind that the Bible is essentially a Damnationist text. So, from that perspective, these verses are quite a find. It seems they got past the editors.

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins,
and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

As for the Bible being a "Damnationist text," remember that I was able to confirm Universalism in the KJV.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Those that go into the lake of fire do not come out of it! The new Jerusalem is only or the saved---The wicked are ashes!
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it

The saved have been with Jesus for the 1000 years after His 2nd coming.

If the unsaved are ash and remain so forever, then how can this be: "For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." I Timothy 4:10, KJV

Your "The wicked are ashes!" and I Timothy 4:10 cannot both be true, and I Timothy 4:10 is true.

How do you propose to get around the verse I quoted? Since they actually agree, how do you now propose to get around Revelation 21:24?