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BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

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Lazarus Short

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Jeff, we are still waiting for you to inform us about what you consider to be the "true" gospel. The unpopular one that doesn't tickle ears. - lol

Yes, Jeff - have you ever considered that the masses of folks outside the Church are there because said Church has no destination for them except...Hell?

Given that supposed fate for most of humanity, an attitude of eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, and then go to Hell...is understandable.
 
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Saint Steven

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Yes, Jeff - have you ever considered that the masses of folks outside the Church are there because said Church has no destination for them except...Hell?

Given that supposed fate for most of humanity, an attitude of eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, and then go to Hell...is understandable.
Jeff likes to carry on about UR being a false gospel. But as I understand it, it isn't a gospel at all. It is rather a position on the final judgment and God's ultimate plans to restore all of creation. The gospel is STILL the gospel. We haven't messed with it.
 
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Rick Otto

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I'm called "Calvinist" because I agree with his soteriology even though I part ways with him on sacramentology & ecclesiology (esp. in the area of church discipline). However, I'm not so quick to judge or condemn:

" Augustine here alludes to the sentence pronounced against Pelagius by the Council of Diospolis, in 415 (P.L., XLIV, col. 325). He moreover recurs to the subject in many passages of his writings, and in City of God XXI sets himself earnestly to prove the eternity of punishment as against the Platonist and Origenist error concerning its intrinsically purgatorial character. We note, further, that the doctrine of the apokatastasis was held in the East, not only by St. Gregory of Nyssa, but also by St. Gregory of Nazianzus as well; "De seipso", 566 (P.G., XXXVII, col. 1010), but the latter, though he asks the question, finally decides neither for nor against it, but rather leaves the answer to God."

Some things I don't feel the need to know, and "I don't know" is a valid and acceptable answer on a fair number of subjects. I can leave this one to God.
 
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Rick Otto

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Yes, Jeff - have you ever considered that the masses of folks outside the Church are there because said Church has no destination for them except...Hell?

Given that supposed fate for most of humanity, an attitude of eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, and then go to Hell...is understandable.
Good point.
Of course The Church doesn't always include The Churched.
 
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Saint Steven

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I'm called "Calvinist" because I agree with his soteriology even though I part ways with him on sacramentology & ecclesiology (esp. in the area of church discipline).
How would you rate your level of agreement with Dave?
 
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Hillsage

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Okay, so looking into it further, it seems that the original claim for the six alleged schools and their opinions comes from "History of opinions on the scriptural doctrine of retribution" by Edward Beecher; his discussion of it begins on chapter 22. One may view it here.

Having read through Beecher's arguments concerning the schools, while he does have some valid points to make, I also see serious problems with the argument. Essentially, its major basis amounts to "this theologian taught this and was really esteemed by these schools, so said schools agreed with them on it." Alexandria and Caesarea are stated to be universalists due to esteeming Origen. Antioch and Edessa are stated to be universalists due to having great affection for Theodore of Mopsuestia. Irenaeus is cited for Ephesus because he taught conditionalism, and Tertullian/Augustine for Carthage/Rome.

There are three problems I see with this. First, however revered a particular teacher was, this does not mean their "school" in general agreed with every point of doctrine. Not counting the writers of the Bible itself, Augustine was perhaps the single most influential theologian on the Catholic Church (the only other contender for that title is Aquinas), but not all of his ideas were fully accepted by it.

Beecher himself admits and points to several in those schools influenced by Theodore that rejected universalism. And I should note that John Chrysostom, who I will return to again later, was no believer in the doctrine and exerted considerable influence on Eastern churches. So this argument of "this highly esteemed teacher believed this, so the schools they were part of or influenced believed it" comes up wanting for me.

The second is that such individuals can only be counted as representative of their own time. What about before them? What about after them? Irenaeus (who we'll get to), for example, wrote in the last second century. What about Ephesus at other times?

Third is the question of whether these individuals had the beliefs that are ascribed to them. Theodore of Mospuestia I have often seen considered a universalist, even by those who are not universalist. But I am not sure if the evidence for this is actually that strong. It appears, at least in the arguments I have seen, to primarily rest on two points. The first is his writings, but the only writing I see cited that is unambiguously universalist is a quote attributed to him in "The Book of the Bee" (page 140) which was written 800 years later and thus a tenuous witness. Again, perhaps there is more, but I can only go by what I see people cite. The other is to claim there are universalist statements in the liturgies of his churches and their successors, but this post on this very forum from someone familiar with the applicable churches says the claim is in error and comes from misunderstanding of the liturgy by outsiders.

Continuing on the question of whether the leaders believed what was ascribed to him, we turn to Irenaeus, presented as a believer in annihilationism/conditionalism. The chief prooftext for this is Book 2, Chapter 34, specifically the statement "And, for this reason, the Lord declared to those who showed themselves ungrateful towards Him: “If you have not been faithful in that which is little, who will give you that which is great?” indicating that those who, in this brief temporal life, have shown themselves ungrateful to Him who bestowed it, shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever." This is cited as proof of Irenaeus's annihilationism.

However, that is assuming that is exactly what Irenaeus said. There is a problem with Irenaeus: Most of Against Heresies exists to us only in a Latin translation, and a poor one at that (see here, which says the translation is of "the most barbarous character"). In cases like this, where whether it's an endorsing of something or not depends on the turn of a few words, I am hesitant to take much from it for fear it's the result of the translation being muddled. For the record, I for the same reason am very hesitant of trusting the quotes given in this topic from Irenaeus apparently affirming eternal damnation from Against Heresies, as those too fall under the question of how well it was translated.

This also brings up the question of, even if they did believe in such things, how influential those ideas of them were. Irenaeus, even if an annihilationist, hardly seems to have discussed it much. A highly influential theologian is far more influential in the areas they wrote much about, not things they made offhand references to a few times.

Still, that is concerning annihilationism, not universalism. We then come to Origen, and while his universalism seems quite clear (even if it is debated how far he went in those beliefs), we again come to the earlier problems in ascribing his views on one particular doctrine to the schools he is claimed to have influenced.

To be fair, later on Beecher does start discussing other teachers in Chapter 29. However, his arguments here mostly amount to "they didn't criticize universalism, so they must have believed in it." That seems weak. But further, this is assuming he is portraying them accurately. I see one case where he is not doing so.

In Chapter 30, he begins with John Chrysostom. He says Chrysostom mentions universalism a few times without criticizing it, and therefore believed in it. For example, he cites Chrysostom's commentary on 1 Corinthians 15:38 (I assume he means 15:28, as a different posting of the work has) and says that Chrysostom "simply says that the doctrine of universal restoration has been inferred from that passage, makes a striking statement of the result, and says nothing to refute the opinion." But having examined Chrysostom's exposition of it here (Homily #39), I do not see what it is talking about. Granted, Chrysostom writes a bunch about that verse in dry language so I could have missed it in all of the text, but I didn't see it.

But the bigger problem is that Beecher completely skips over a writing of Chrysostom that proves, no doubt, that he was not a universalist. Please examine Homily #9 of the same epistle. Chrysostom is as blunt as can be: "This is no small subject of enquiry which we propose, but rather about things which are of the first necessity and which all men enquire about; namely, whether hell fire have any end. For that it has no end Christ indeed declared when he said, “Their fire shall not be quenched, and their worm shall not die.”" His statements immediately after that one reinforce his rejection of universalism further. This therefore leaves me with a question: If Beecher is this astoundingly inaccurate regarding Chrysostom, who was as clear as could be considering his rejection of universalism, how accurate am I to trust him in representing others?

To be fair, Beecher does seem to indicate Chrysostom preached eternal punishment: "Elsewhere Neander says that in his [Chrysostom's] field of labor he felt that the doctrine of eternal punishment was necessary to alarm the worldly and deter them from sin, and so he preached it to the multitude (“Ch. History,” vol. ii., p. 676, Torrey’s translation)." Two problems. First, the citation is inaccurate. Page 676 of Volume 2 is found right here, and it's the Torrey translation for the record. Nothing about Chrysostom is there. Maybe he got the page number wrong, but Chrysostom is mentioned more than 200 times in the book and I'm not going to search for it. In any event, when one sees a passage as clear as the above from Chrysostom, one needs more than this kind of speculation to argue he believed in universalism. By this logic, I must as well argue that any early Christians who believed in universalism didn't actually believe in it, but preached it to make people feel better!

All that said, while I believe Beecher overstates his case regarding how much universalism was believed in (at least in regards to his "six schools" argument), his arguments that belief in universalism did not seem to be considered a problem (and something reasonable people could disagree about) in the early church were much stronger. One explanation for this could be, however, that universalism was far down the ladder on things to have disputes about. Things like Marcionism and Arianism were much bigger fish to fry, and compared to them, universalism vs. annihilationism vs. damnation was an intellectual curiosity. Only once these much more critical doctrines were settled did something like universalism become something to be critically examined.

THEREFORE, the conclusion of this long, rambling post is that, if Beecher is the source for the argument regarding the different schools, I have to confess I believe he comes up short in his argument. It simply relies too much on claiming a particular influential person believed in the doctrine and that therefore it must have been thought of highly in the areas they influenced (assuming the instances of claimed influence are as grand as was claimed by Beecher), plus a bunch of speculation on his part. One can take his points and put forward an argument that in the early centuries universalism wasn't looked down upon, but as an argument of the predominance of universalism, I feel it--at least in the form of the six schools argument--comes up short.
I am impressed at the amount of research you did in such a short time. I do admit this is a long post to try to deal with. I am still researching your many embedded URLs and multiple rabbit trails contained in them. I do admit that I am disagreeing with some of your conclusions. I truly wonder if part of that is simply the 'bias' or 'doctrinal bent' you may have compared to mine.

Can you share with me just where your heart sits with Universalism? Are you seeking to understand it, or are you presently a confirmed eternal hell or annihilation believer?
Would you be able to say you even wished or hoped it was true?

I do plan on answering more, but I was already committed to another thread last week and am overwhelmed. Work is also still part of my life. :sigh:

Thank you for this post JSRG.
 
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mmksparbud

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The bible pretty much explains itself. You put all the verses that mention one word together---whatever you are researching ---and read them and you get to figure out pretty much what it means. I like using several different translations also. It is pretty clear that eternal and forever do not mean eternal and forever every single time. It depends on the context. Such as Sodom and Gomorrah are burned with everlasting fire, a slave that wished to stay with their master would do so forever. Hannah gave her son to the service of the sanctuary forever. None of those means forever---until the death of the subject.
And that is what the everlasting fire of the lake of fire means. Till the subjects are consumed.

You don't need to read the foolish ramblings of the misguided to understand the bible. You just need to read the bible! In the original if available---and nowadays always is---but not a must. An understanding of the time and culture and the people of what is written is helpful. It is not the opinions of men that save, but the words of God. That is where the truth is. Like the old saying----garbage in, garbage out.
The constant quoting of the opinions of men I don't even bother to read. I do not base my believes on the ideas of mortal men but the immortal word of God. Best thing to do with garbage is throw it out before it stinks up the whole house!!
 
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Saint Steven

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You just need to read the bible! In the original if available---and nowadays always is---but not a must.
What do you mean about "the original if available" that "nowadays always is"?
 
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FineLinen

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The bible pretty much explains itself. You put all the verses that mention one word together---whatever you are researching ---and read them and you get to figure out pretty much what it means.

iu


That is truly exciting information. Wrong, but exciting!

Mystery = musterion =

Not the mysterious, but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit.

e69ea149328af6294c5dbcde6351a63940c970a1.jpeg


“Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, To the praise of the glory of His grace , wherein He has made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace ; Wherein He has abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of His will , according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself :That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will .”
 
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FineLinen

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Beware ! !

"And all mankind (all flesh) will see/ shall see God's salvation."

"The Lord will be terrible unto them; for He will famish all the gods of the earth, and men shall worship Him, every one from his place and all the isles of the heathen." -Zeph. 2:11-

"Men shall worship Him"

"Every one"

"From his place"

"And all the isles of the heathen"

Indeed, My decision is to gather nations, to assemble kingdoms, to pour out all My burning anger; for all the earth will be devoured by the fire of My zeal. -Zeph. 3:8,9

The purpose of our Lord's burning anger, and zeal, and devouring? =

"For then I will give to the peoples purified lips, that all of them may call upon the Name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent (shoulder to shoulder).

Our Lord declares through His prophet that He will bring all men, "all of them", to worship Him with one consent, from their place, as He purifies lips by His burning fire, to call upon Him.

"The Lord of Hosts will make unto all peoples a feast of rich food, a banquet of matured wine well refined. And He will destroy the face of the covering cast over all people, and the veil that is spread over all nations. He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God shall wipe away tears from off all faces;....for the Living Life has spoken it.

All men, even the isles of the "heathen" serving the Lord shoulder to shoulder! The veil, covering "all people", and "all nations, destroyed. Swallowing up death in nothing short of victory! Tears wiped away from "all faces." The One who endorses such statements? = The Living Life who has spoken it!

"I will gather the lame, and gather the outcasts, even those whom I have afflicted...and the Lord shall reign over them in Mount Zion from now on and forever.
 
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FineLinen

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Eternal Death----WHAT?!!!

What a concept; Eternal death; Wow! Death that just keeps going on and on and on without end. Infinite death. Now THAT'S crediting death with a lot of power, especially considering that scripture credits Jesus with destroying him who has the power of death, and that death, the last enemy shall be destroyed. I think it was while reading a study Bible with notes by Dr. Charles Ryrie---a very respected scholar at least within the Dispensationalist wing of western Evangelicalism---when I first ran across the notion that, while all men, without Christ, are dead in trespasses and sins, that state of death becomes eternal when they die without receiving Christ as Lord and Savior. This was given as the meaning of the second death in Revelation.

Think about that: Imagine that scenario. Death existing along with life for all eternity.
Though Paul saw the Day when God will become all in all, it seems -- according to the above theory -- that there's going to be another all where not only will God not be all, but His arch enemy, death, will have its own kingdom where it will reign forever. They're not talking about death as annihilation, they're talking about an eternal state of anti-life existence without love, without grace, without mercy, abandoned by God to eternal darkness.

Stand this nonsense up against Jesus' claim that He is making ALL THINGS NEW.

The re-making of all things new is by His resurrection life. THAT life, not death, goes on and on and on eternally. It's life that goes on and on, not death. To understand the operation of death, as opposed to life, our focus must be upon Jesus' experience of death, whose death is inclusive of all death. Yes, that's what the Bible clearly teaches. Christ died for all, the just for the unjust that He might bring us to God. Possibly the most important verse in the Bible for explaining how Christ's death relates to all mankind's death, is found in 2 Cor. 5:14. Nearly every translation that I'm familiar with renders this verse with greater clarity than the KJV.

This is Paul's explanation from the Amplified Version of how Christ's death relates to all mankind's death: "For the love of Christ controls and urges and impels us, because we are of the opinion and conviction that [if] One died for all, then all died." That's what it means that Christ died for us all. We needed to die, finally, once for all; no more dying, so the death of all the generations past, present and future met its destiny in Christ, and death finally, fully died. You see, life is lived, and death is died. "For in that He died, he died unto sin once; but in that He lives, He lives unto God (Rom. 6:10)."

The destiny of death is not to go on and on eternally.

The destiny of death is to die, finally. God's warning to Adam and Eve, in the original Hebrew was, ".....dying, thou shalt surely die." Get that. Not dying, thou shalt continue to die without end; "dying, thou shalt surely DIE." Death doesn't terminate life. Life terminates death. "Death is swallowed up of life," through Christ's resurrection. The Source of death's finality is the same as the Source of life's continuance: Jesus Christ our Lord, crucified, buried and risen.

As I recall--not having it with me at the time of this writing---the NAS translation of Rom. 6:10, makes very clear how death and life work, and Jonathan Mitchell includes it as an alternate rendering. From the NAS: "For the death He died, He died to sin once; but the life He lives, He lives unto God." Ah! There it is. ..."the death He died, He died....but life He lives, He lives..." Death is died; life is lived. Jesus gathered together all death into His death, and now lives, and " It's not that He merely lived; HE LIVES, and we live in and with Him. As the lyrics go to that beautiful gospel hymn, Because He Lives: "Because He lives, I can face tomorrow; because He lives, all fear is gone. Because I know He holds the future, and life is worth the living just because He lives."

As death came through one man, spreading to all men, so death has come to its end in One Man. According to Paul in Colossians, all mankind shall be gathered together in Christ, for He sums up in Himself all humanity, as He is the fullness of the Godhead bodily. To extol the power of death, as does much of pseudo-orthodox Christianity, is an affront to the power of Christ's resurrection. The effect is the same as saying to our Lord, "yes, You live forever, but death is your equal match. It has the same power as your life." -John Gavazzoni-
 
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mmksparbud

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Eternal Death----WHAT?!!!

What a concept; Eternal death; Wow! Death that just keeps going on and on and on without end. Infinite death. Now THAT'S crediting death with a lot of power, especially considering that scripture credits Jesus with destroying him who has the power of death, and that death, the last enemy shall be destroyed. I think it was while reading a study Bible with notes by Dr. Charles Ryrie---a very respected scholar at least within the Dispensationalist wing of western Evangelicalism---when I first ran across the notion that, while all men, without Christ, are dead in trespasses and sins, that state of death becomes eternal when they die without receiving Christ as Lord and Savior. This was given as the meaning of the second death in Revelation.

Think about that: Imagine that scenario. Death existing along with life for all eternity.
Though Paul saw the Day when God will become all in all, it seems -- according to the above theory -- that there's going to be another all where not only will God not be all, but His arch enemy, death, will have its own kingdom where it will reign forever. They're not talking about death as annihilation, they're talking about an eternal state of anti-life existence without love, without grace, without mercy, abandoned by God to eternal darkness.

Stand this nonsense up against Jesus' claim that He is making ALL THINGS NEW.

The re-making of all things new is by His resurrection life. THAT life, not death, goes on and on and on eternally. It's life that goes on and on, not death. To understand the operation of death, as opposed to life, our focus must be upon Jesus' experience of death, whose death is inclusive of all death. Yes, that's what the Bible clearly teaches. Christ died for all, the just for the unjust that He might bring us to God. Possibly the most important verse in the Bible for explaining how Christ's death relates to all mankind's death, is found in 2 Cor. 5:14. Nearly every translation that I'm familiar with renders this verse with greater clarity than the KJV.

This is Paul's explanation from the Amplified Version of how Christ's death relates to all mankind's death: "For the love of Christ controls and urges and impels us, because we are of the opinion and conviction that [if] One died for all, then all died." That's what it means that Christ died for us all. We needed to die, finally, once for all; no more dying, so the death of all the generations past, present and future met its destiny in Christ, and death finally, fully died. You see, life is lived, and death is died. "For in that He died, he died unto sin once; but in that He lives, He lives unto God (Rom. 6:10)."

The destiny of death is not to go on and on eternally.

The destiny of death is to die, finally. God's warning to Adam and Eve, in the original Hebrew was, ".....dying, thou shalt surely die." Get that. Not dying, thou shalt continue to die without end; "dying, thou shalt surely DIE." Death doesn't terminate life. Life terminates death. "Death is swallowed up of life," through Christ's resurrection. The Source of death's finality is the same as the Source of life's continuance: Jesus Christ our Lord, crucified, buried and risen.

As I recall--not having it with me at the time of this writing---the NAS translation of Rom. 6:10, makes very clear how death and life work, and Jonathan Mitchell includes it as an alternate rendering. From the NAS: "For the death He died, He died to sin once; but the life He lives, He lives unto God." Ah! There it is. ..."the death He died, He died....but life He lives, He lives..." Death is died; life is lived. Jesus gathered together all death into His death, and now lives, and " It's not that He merely lived; HE LIVES, and we live in and with Him. As the lyrics go to that beautiful gospel hymn, Because He Lives: "Because He lives, I can face tomorrow; because He lives, all fear is gone. Because I know He holds the future, and life is worth the living just because He lives."

As death came through one man, spreading to all men, so death has come to its end in One Man. According to Paul in Colossians, all mankind shall be gathered together in Christ, for He sums up in Himself all humanity, as He is the fullness of the Godhead bodily. To extol the power of death, as does much of pseudo-orthodox Christianity, is an affront to the power of Christ's resurrection. The effect is the same as saying to our Lord, "yes, You live forever, but death is your equal match. It has the same power as your life." -John Gavazzoni-


This is silly---all it is, is life ceases to exist---no life. You make it seem like it is a state of being, that makes no sense. It us the end of life. Period. Like it is now, except that for everyone, there will be a resurrection---
Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Those that go into the lake of fire get the 2nd death---from which there is no resurrection.

Joh_5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There is no resurrection from the 2nd death. It is the end of life, not some sort of existence---it is non-existence. You are turning it into something it isn't. Jesus calls it the 2nd death, not the 2nd existence.
 
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FineLinen

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This is silly---all it is, is life ceases to exist---no life.

“The current Evangelical Theology involves in its system belief in the deathlessness of sin, the indestructibility of error, and permanence of evil. That though there was a time in the history of the universe when sin in any shape or form did not exist, when no cry of pain or sense of guilt darkened the all-extensive bliss and holiness of creation, yet since sin has once effected an entrance into such a scene, it has come in never to go out again, indestructible, unconquerable, ineradicable, endless. Absolute happiness and sinlessness have forever vanished like the phantom of a dream. The ‘eternal state’ is a universe endlessly finding room for myriads of souls rolling and writhing in the burning agonies of ceaseless flame, eternally sinful, vile and morally hideous. It pictures the ‘final perfection’ yet to be attained as having room for a vast cesspool of immoral and degraded beings, continually existing in opposition to God.” –Vladamir Gelesnoff-

The whole (the ktisis) of created life shall be delivered...
 
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mmksparbud

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“The current Evangelical Theology involves in its system belief in the deathlessness of sin, the indestructibility of error, and permanence of evil. That though there was a time in the history of the universe when sin in any shape or form did not exist, when no cry of pain or sense of guilt darkened the all-extensive bliss and holiness of creation, yet since sin has once effected an entrance into such a scene, it has come in never to go out again, indestructible, unconquerable, ineradicable, endless. Absolute happiness and sinlessness have forever vanished like the phantom of a dream. The ‘eternal state’ is a universe endlessly finding room for myriads of souls rolling and writhing in the burning agonies of ceaseless flame, eternally sinful, vile and morally hideous. It pictures the ‘final perfection’ yet to be attained as having room for a vast cesspool of immoral and degraded beings, continually existing in opposition to God.” –Vladamir Gelesnoff-

The whole (the ktisis) of created life shall be delivered...

What a load of horse manure!!! Why do you wallow in the opinions of men? They have nothing to say of any value. God will wipe out all sin, all unrepentant sinners will cease to exist, Satan and his angels will cease to exist. The lake of fire will end and nothing but ashes will remain and God will remake the whole earth again---free from any pain, sorrow, death, or tears.

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts
Nah_1:9 What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.


Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Garbage in, garbage out---truth in, truth out.
 
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JSRG

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Thanks for all this detailed research. Wow.

Would you agree that your findings prove that Universalism is not a modern invention but has its roots in the early church? (and even in the NT church) I think that is the main point here.
Well, honestly, I mostly read through Beecher's assertions and tried to check up on some of the parts most relevant to the six schools.

I don't think anyone would claim that Universalism was a purely modern invention, though, as everyone agrees there were at least a few in the early church that taught it. The more debatable point is how many there were. As for the New Testament church, well, that depends heavily on your interpretation of the applicable New Testament texts.
I am impressed at the amount of research you did in such a short time. I do admit this is a long post to try to deal with. I am still researching your many embedded URLs and multiple rabbit trails contained in them. I do admit that I am disagreeing with some of your conclusions. I truly wonder if part of that is simply the 'bias' or 'doctrinal bent' you may have compared to mine.
Mostly I was trying to figure out what the basis for the six schools claim was. I've seen the Encyclopedia article cited, but I couldn't figure out where it got the idea, and searching only showed people to be using the same citation without any indication as to where it got the idea. That's why I asked, I was in the process of looking for information, and this thread by pure coincidence was active and had it mentioned, so I opted to drop in and ask if anyone knew about it.

Finding out that it was apparently Beecher who made the argument was the missing link that let me finally look into what the basis for the claim was. So now I know. Since I thought others might find my information useful, even if they didn't necessarily agree with my conclusions, I thought it would be useful to post them.

Incidentally, Beecher's work, it turns out, is listed in the bibliography for the Encyclopedia article, but in a place where, if you weren't doing a systematic examination of every single work mentioned, you wouldn't see it. Given that the six schools claim relates to history, you would expect it to be under the "For history consult:" section (which is where I tried looking), but no, it's buried in the "Controversial writings" section under the sub-heading of "Writers who are agnostic as to universal salvation (though decidedly opposed to eternal punishment)". Not exactly where you would expect to find it. In fairness, the author of the article probably had no way of knowing that this one single sentence of an Encyclopedia article would get more attention than the rest of it combined.

But as for my thoughts regarding universalism that you wanted to know, I'm highly skeptical of it for a number of reasons, but I wouldn't say I fully reject the possibility.
 
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FineLinen

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What a load of horse manure!!! Why do you wallow in the opinions of men? They have nothing to say of any value. God will wipe out all sin, all unrepentant sinners will cease to exist, Satan and his angels will cease to exist. The lake of fire will end and nothing but ashes will remain and God will remake the whole earth again---free from any pain, sorrow, death, or tears.

The things one can learn on a Christian Board. Sin prevails, all death (s) prevail.

The ONLY One who does not prevail = the Lord of the angel armies who fails in His mission?

I Believe

I believe in "the restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouths of the prophets since the world began." -Acts 3:21-

I believe that the "good tidings of great joy will be to all people." -Luke 2:10

I believe that believers in Christ Jesus are "born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God." -John 1:13-

I believe

I believe that God appointed Jesus Christ "heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe." -Hebr. 1:2-

I believe that "no man can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him." -John 6:44

I believe "God gave Jesus authority over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as God gave him." -John 17:2-

I believe

I believe the Father "has given all things into Jesus' hands." -John 13:3-

I believe that Jesus Christ "was the true light which gives light to every man who come into the world." -John 1:9

I believe that "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation to all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification for all men." -Romans 5:18

I believe one mans sin "brought condemnation for all mankind." -Romans 5: 19-

I believe one mans righteousness brings "right relationship with God, and new life for everyone." -Romans 5:19-

I believe one mans sin made the whole of mankind sinners. I also believe the righteousness of one Man makes the whole of mankind righteous.
 
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FineLinen

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Friends: Are you aware that individuals exist who have never seen colours ever? They can only see black and white. If you find the following video moving (as I do), just contemplate what happens when you have your glasses of His making causing you to see all the majestic colour of His Realm.


The Herald Of God's Grace
 
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FineLinen

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"Because of the sacrifice of the Messiah, his blood poured out on the altar of the Cross, we’re a free people—free of penalties and punishments chalked up by all our misdeeds.

And not just barely free, either. Abundantly free!

He thought of everything, provided for everything we could possibly need, letting us in on the plans he took such delight in making. He set it all out before us in Christ, a long-range plan in which everything would be brought together and summed up in him, everything in deepest heaven, everything on planet earth.

It’s in Christ that we find out who we are and what we are living for. Long before we first heard of Christ and got our hopes up, he had his eye on us, had designs on us for glorious living, part of the overall purpose he is working out in everything and everyone.

It’s in Christ that you, once you heard the truth and believed it (this Message of your salvation), found yourselves home free—signed, sealed, and delivered by the Holy Spirit. This signet from God is the first installment on what’s coming, a reminder that we’ll get everything God has planned for us, a praising and glorious life." -The Message-
 
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