Michael the Arch Angel = Jesus??? Again. Sorry!!!

mmksparbud

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Jesus is the second person of the Trinity (i.e. Trinity = The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit).
Jesus is uncreated and eternal.

Jesus is referred to as the "Angel of the Lord" in the OT, but that does not mean He was Michael the archangel, and that does not mean Jesus is a an actual created being, or created angel, and neither does it mean that Jesus possessed an angelic being already in existence. I believe Jesus took on the empty soulless shell of the body of angels before the Incarnation. Jesus needed to cover His glory so as not to kill people when he visited them. The angel of the Lord makes many appearances in the OT and is referred to as GOD. Angel of course means "messenger," too.

Archangel does not mean He is an angel- Michael the archangel means "greatest of the Messengers who is like God"
Jesus Christ, He came to show the love of God. He came to die for our sins. He came as God's greatest messenger who is like God.
 
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ChetSinger

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then you don't know much about theology, there are whole denomination that believe this SDA and Jehovah Witness believe this as part of there main teaching.
Hello icedragon101!

This is really simple: John 1:1 says that Jesus is God. To believe that he isn't God you have to change John 1:1. Which is exactly what the Jehovah's Witnesses did with their corrupted New World Translation. No one uses their books but them.

Michael, on the other hand, is "one of the chief princes" (Daniel 10:13). The Hebrew term "prince" is used to describe territorial angels (prince of Greece, prince of Persia, etc.). So Michael, being an angel, is not God. He's also said to be one of several, so he's not unique.

But Jesus is God, because John 1:1, along with other passages in the New Testament, say that he is. He's also unique, because John 3:16 says that he is.

This really isn't as hard as you think it is.
 
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pasifika

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so if it is not Jesus and not Michael and Michael helps him, then Michael could still be another name for JESUS. this text does not prove that it is not Jesus
Hello,
That is just speculation with no strong scriptural text to support that idea...
If Michael could be another name for Jesus, then why is that name (Michael )not included in the name "JESUS CHRIST"...for example; Michael Jesus Christ "????

Or

who is the other "chief prince(s)" who has the same title as Michael? Daniel 10:13....then Michael, one of the chief princes came to help me...
 
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Redwingfan9

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I know this subject keeps coming up over and over again, but I have a new question on Daniel 10. in 2011 I thought this doctrine had been debunked when I attended an Evangelical Church and the preached on this subject. As he was preaching I thought I saw the proof that Michael was NOT Jesus, but now I think I may have drawn a hasty conclusion. In the vision Daniel see what most believe a vision of the pre-incarnate Christ. Then he falls un-conscious and when he wakes up he is told by an un-named being that Michael had to be called to help, because he was resisted by the Prince of Persia, that is why it took so long to come to Daniel. The problem is that when Daniel falls asleep and then wakes up is the speaker the Pre-incarnate Christ or is some other being. If it is PIC then it is proof Michael is not Christ. If it is some one else then Christ could still be Michael. Does anyone know if the language indicates that it is one way or the other?
In the Old Testament Jesus appears repeatedly as the Angel of the Lord. There is no reason to believe he also appears as Michael.
 
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pasifika

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But Michael is the only one called The Archangel. For He is the chief, the ruler of the angels. There are classes of angels. covering cherubs, seraphim, those with 2 wings, those with 6. Gabriel himself would be a chief prince among the angels, a covering cherub is the highest---Lucifer was once one. But only one Archangel from eternity---Michael, and He alone can be called Michael---"one who is like God," for He is God with the Father.
Hello, it doesn't matter whether Michael is the only one called the Archangel then it must be another name for Jesus....that is just speculation...

So, you called Jesus Christ as Michael Jesus Christ the Archangel ????
 
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Sketcher

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that is not what they are saying. do you know anything about this subject
Yes I do. Since you question that, tell me - how do John 1 and Hebrews 1 not define Jesus as a separate being from the angels?
 
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mmksparbud

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Hello, it doesn't matter whether Michael is the only one called the Archangel then it must be another name for Jesus....that is just speculation...

So, you called Jesus Christ as Michael Jesus Christ the Archangel ????

In the Old Testament Jesus appears repeatedly as the Angel of the Lord. There is no reason to believe he also appears as Michael.
He is not an angel---but It is accepted that the Angel of the Lord is indeed, Jesus---but everyone has a fit when Michael the archangel could also be Jesus!

It is just another title---like Prince of Peace, Lord of Lords, Everlasting Father (thpough He is not the Father, they are one), El Shaddai (which means mighty breasts---though He is not a woman!) Angel of the Lord (though, again, He is not an angel) The Lamb, though He is not an animal! King of Kings, and more---
But all of a sudden, when it comes to Michael---it can't be, it's speculation! If He is the Mighty breasts---He can be Michael!

Will somebody please address the scriptures in post #79!
 
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buzuxi02

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that is not the question I asked and the Lord could be the Father there. so it is inconclusive, now back to Daniel 10 do you have anything to say about the grammer there in Daniel 10?
Michael is one of many archangels traditionally numbered at 7 . (See Ezekial 9:2-3, Rev 8:2)
The argument that "only" Michael is called an archangel is debunked in Daniel 10:13 when the term archon (chief) is used in plural:

But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
 
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mmksparbud

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Michael is one of many archangels traditionally numbered at 7 . (See Ezekial 9:2-3, Rev 8:2)
The argument that "only" Michael is called an archangel is debunked in Daniel 10:13 when the term archon (chief) is used in plural:

But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

Ezek 9 is talking about cherubs. Rev 8 says angels---Archangel is only mentioned twice.

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

There are classes of angels. covering cherubs, seraphim, those with 2 wings, those with 6. Gabriel himself would be a chief prince among the angels, a covering cherub is the highest---Lucifer was once one. But only one Archangel from eternity---Michael, and He alone can be called Michael---"one who is like God," for He is God with the Father.
 
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buzuxi02

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Ezek 9 is talking about cherubs. Rev 8 says angels---Archangel is only mentioned twice.

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Jud_1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

There are classes of angels. covering cherubs, seraphim, those with 2 wings, those with 6. Gabriel himself would be a chief prince among the angels, a covering cherub is the highest---Lucifer was once one. But only one Archangel from eternity---Michael, and He alone can be called Michael---"one who is like God," for He is God with the Father.
There are classes of angels. covering cherubs, seraphim, those with 2 wings, those with 6. Gabriel himself would be a chief prince among the an
There are 9 classes of angelic beings. The word chief means arch. Now stop that JW nonsense. You already admit the term archangel and/or its equivalent is used twice NOT referring to Michael. Stop trying to put a square peg into a round hole.
 
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pasifika

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You are the one mentioning SDA---I've not quoted anything from their writings.
Jesus has had many names---in the OT He was never called Jesus. King of Kings is another title--Doesn't mean He is a man--a king of this earth only. Or even just the King above all earthly Kings--He is king of the universe.


No, it doesn't say with a voice like the archangel---
1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Michael is not an angel, He is not a created being---He created the angels, which means messengers---He is the Commander, the greatest messenger---and means one who is like God---"The greatest messenger who is like God." That is not a question.

Yes, He contended with Satan over the Body of Moses---Jesus, during His temptation in the wilderness, always quoted scripture. It was not until the very last that He said;
Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
He did not say----It is written thou shalt worship me--but the Lord. Jesus always pointed to the Father as Lord.



Please address these scriptures:

Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Dan_9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Dan_12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Act_3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Act_5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Rev_1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,


xodus 3:1-7 ...'Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in laEw, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed. And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt. And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I. And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows.'

Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Jos 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.
Hello let me address your questions;
  • Daniel 8:25 regarding "the" Prince of princes...This is referring to Christ. Key word here is "the" Prince of princes..
  • Daniel 9:25..Messiah the Prince...it's very obvious
  • Daniel 12:1..Michael the great prince...this is Not Christ, because Christ is the one and only begotten of the Father...and Michael is one of the chief princes Not the Only One...Daniel 10:13
  • Exodus 3:1-3...regarding the angel of the Lord in the burning bush...this is Not Christ but an angel...Acts 7:30-32 according to Stephen the one in the burning bush was an angel, but it was the Lord who spoke through the angel...
  • Joshua 5:15...is also an angel...commander of the Lord's army...but is Not the Lord Himself
The Lord in the Old testament is the title of Christ....Acts 2:36....God has made Jesus both Lord and Messiah (Christ )....
 
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Archangel does not mean He is an angel- Michael the archangel means "greatest of the Messengers who is like God"
Jesus Christ, He came to show the love of God. He came to die for our sins. He came as God's greatest messenger who is like God.

I believe Michael the archangel is simply a created angel, and not Jesus Christ not only for biblical reasons but by pure logic alone. Again, the Son of God already has a name. It's Jesus, and not Michael. Do you think a believer can cast out demons in the name of Michael?
 
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Strong in Him

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Michael is not an angel----He is commander in chief of them---He created them.

Where does Scripture say that Michael created the angels?
John 1:3 says that all things were created through the Word, Jesus. There is nothing that was created without him; all things exist by, and because of, him - that includes angels.

Of course He is commander of the universe---He created everything.

God the Father created everything - through Jesus, in the power of the Holy Spirit.
Genesis 1 says that God spoke and things were created; John 1 says that Jesus is the WORD through whom all things were created.
Scripture never says that Michael even created the angels, never mind the entire universe.

Just read the bible. It explains itself quite well.

Yes, and it doesn't say that Michael created the universe.

Put all the verses together, there is no other answer than Michael is, indeed, Jesus---Captain of the Host.

You'd get a better understanding of the Bible if you read it all, in context, instead of "putting together" random verses to try to make a doctrine.
 
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Strong in Him

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Jesus Christ, He came to show the love of God. He came to die for our sins. He came as God's greatest messenger who is like God.

He came as God's Son who IS God.
Jesus Christ was, is and always will be God. The universe was created through him, John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-16. He is higher than the angels, Hebrews 1:3. He is before all things, Colossians 1:17 and is the Alpha and Omega, Revelation 22:13.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Some SDA's have been misled about this. They don't realize yet that they have to test every teaching, not accept it, just because it is accepted by others in the church, or even taught wrongly by some pastors or leaders in the church.
Same in other churches all over the world - everything must be tested and proven truth BEFORE accepting it, no matter how many other correct teachings , if any, they have right.

You posted an articles that claim to be what SDA Believe.

Below is a bible study that is the teaching of the SDA on this subject please read it then comment on the presentation.

Who is Michael the Archangel? - A Study
 
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Norbert L

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point taken, more in favor of Jesus being Michael

Michael the Archangel---is a title, one of many that Jesus has. Archangel is the chief of the angels---there is only One who leads all the angels, for He created them.
I get the impression that the ending of chapter 10 is like a game about who's who and where do they fit?

Then there touched me again one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me. 19 And he said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he spake unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me. 20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I am come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I go forth, lo, the prince of Greece shall come. 21 But I will tell thee that which is inscribed in the writing of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me against these, but Michael your prince.

There are three princes in the above verses, plus one like the appearance of a man. Likewise we have more than one person in verse 13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia". I think it's fair to assume that one like the appearance of a man is also the person talking here. If it isn't we have 5 persons in the mix.

From what I can tell there is no explicit mention in the entire chapter of Michael being Jesus. Christians will draw their own conclusions but as a standalone chapter, it's just more information about Heaven having its' own administrative structure and that it interacts with us here on Earth 2 Kings 6:17. After all Jesus did have to remind Peter about His ability to call angelic resources to His aid. Matthew 26:53
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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You posted an articles that claim to be what SDA Believe.

Below is a bible study that is the teaching of the SDA on this subject please read it then comment on the presentation.
The presentation? < shrugs > If it says Michael is Jesus, it is wrong regardless of presentation. If it disagrees with Scripture in any point, that point is wrong, regardless of presentation. If it agrees with Scripture, not opposed to God's Plan and Purpose, then that part is good and can be accepted.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Michael the Archangel---is a title, one of many that Jesus has. Archangel is the chief of the angels---there is only One who leads all the angels, for He created them.​

There were many archangels recognized in Judaism (and thus, Christianity).

I know that the standard SDA argument is that the Bible only explicitly calls Michael an archangel; but this simply ignores the historical and religious context of Scripture. Those who penned the biblical texts believed that there were prominent angels, because the existence of prominent angels--Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, et al-- were well known in the ancient Jewish world and thus accepted by Christians.

Michael isn't the only archangel, Michael is an archangel. The number of archangels is unknown. It's also not particularly important.

But confusing a mere creature, Michael, with Jesus Christ who is Eternal and Almighty God is deeply and immeasurably problematic. It's heretical and idolatrous.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Archangel does not mean He is an angel- Michael the archangel means "greatest of the Messengers who is like God"
Jesus Christ, He came to show the love of God. He came to die for our sins. He came as God's greatest messenger who is like God.

Michael does not mean "one who is like God", it is מי כאל (mi ka'el?), "Who is like God?" It's a question. A rhetorical question, because there is none that is like God, as God Himself declares,

"To whom then will you compare me, that I should be like him? says the Holy One." - Isaiah 40:25

Who is like God? No one. For God alone is God. Michael is not one who is like God, but his name lifts God above himself, that there is none like God, there is none who can be compared to God. For God is above all, ineffable, incomparable. God.

Michael, like all the angels, bows down before the feet of Jesus Christ and calls Him Lord.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ken Rank

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Michael does not mean "one who is like God", it is מי כאל (mi ka'el?), "Who is like God?" It's a question. A rhetorical question, because there is none that is like God, as God Himself declares
Well said and 100% accurate. The Hebrew means, "Who is like God?" And the answer is, "Nobody!"
 
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