A warning about False Teaching in the churches!

[solid_core]

The church was born at the Day of Pentecost and the arrival of tongues signalled the coming of the kingdom of God through Christ. Judaism ceased when Jesus died on the cross, not with the destruction of the Temple in 70AD. Paul had no idea that the Romans were going to invade and destroy the Temple when he wrote 1 Corinthians.

Jesus came into His kingdom when he took the penitent thief to Paradise.

I don't know where you got the notion that the kingdom of God started with the destruction of the Temple. It certainly does not come from Scripture because there are no references to it. And nothing in the writings of the church fathers support it either. Therefore your view is not mainstream Christianity at all.

Augustine did believe in his early ministry that the gifts had passed away, but he changed his position in his later ministry after being overwhelmed with evidence to the contrary in his churches. He told the Pope that he believed that the gifts were continuing, but the Roman church suppressed his new view, and stuck with his old view. Church History 101!!!

So I think that your doctrinal view went down with the Titanic!!

To say that Paul as an inspired apostle had no idea that Romans will destroy the temple, when Jesus predicted it several times, is quite a silly presupposition. Jesus clearly said that it will happen and that it will happen in his generation and some of the ones who were standing around when Jesus said that will be still alive.

The immanent coming of God's kingdom and the end of the age was one of the central ideas of New Testament writings.

 

[GenemZ]

There are dozens, even hundreds, of denominations and each worship and interpret the Bible in a slightly different way, or have church practices with which others don't agree. But that doesn't mean they are apostate. All born again Christians believe the one Gospel and worship the true God.

They were all saved by the same God when they believed in Jesus Christ. All born again.

God is the Word! (John 1:1)

After they were saved? No. They can not be worshiping the same God. For He is the Word.

Don't get it?

The only way one can grow in faith is by accurate understanding of the Word of God. If you believe false doctrine, or a false application of a doctrine taught well. At that point you are worshiping something other than God. God is no more known to us than the Word being made known through us.

Its all about the Word of God once one is saved.

2 Timothy 4:3.. It tell us that many believers refuse to continue to grow in their knowledge of God... Instead, they seek another god according their personal preferences.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."​

Many denominations = 2 Tim 4:3!

 

[solid_core]

They were all saved by the same God when they believed in Jesus Christ. All born again.

God is the Word! (John 1:1)

After they were saved? No. They can not be worshiping the same God. For He is the Word.

Don't get it?

The only way one can grow in faith is by accurate understanding of the Word of God. If you believe false doctrine, or a false application of a doctrine taught well. At that point you are worshiping something other than God. God is no more known to us than the Word being made known through us.

Its all about the Word of God once one is saved.

2 Timothy 4:3.. It tell us that many believers refuse to continue to grow in their knowledge of God... Instead, they seek another god according their personal preferences.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."​

Many denominations = 2 Tim 4:3!

"Logos" in hellenistic culture was reason, a personified emanation from God, through which God created the world.

Chaos + Logos = Kosmos.

It does not mean "the Bible".

 

[Strong in Him]

They were all saved by the same God when they believed in Jesus Christ. All born again.

Yes.

After they were saved? No. They can not be worshiping the same God. For He is the Word.

There is only one God.

The only way one can grow in faith is by accurate understanding of the Word of God.

And by being in challenging, or difficult, situations where you need to trust God - faith in action.

If you believe false doctrine, or a false application of a doctrine taught well. At that point you are worshiping something other than God.

No.
But if it were so, the doctrine that tongues ceased is a false one. So what would that say about you?

Its all about the Word of God once one is saved.

And the Holy Spirit, who leads us to Jesus, the Word.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."​

Many denominations = 2 Tim 4:3!

No.
Denominations have sprung up because of differences among the leadership, preferences in worship and different interpretations of Scripture. This does not mean that the leaders were proclaiming false doctrine.
For example, the Church of England came about because Henry VIII split from the Pope. The Methodist denomination came about when John and Charles Wesley were filled with the Holy Spirit, knew in their hearts that they were saved and had a personal relationship with God, and began preaching in the open air and all over the country in their enthusiasm. They also ordained men to be Ministers, which the CofE did not like - but the church didn't split from the CofE until after their death. The Salvation Army began after William Booth began preaching to alcoholics and the homeless. The Baptist, URC, Orthodox and other churches started in different ways.
All these are Christian denominations and believe in the same God and the same Gospel - as there is only one of each. The differences are mostly in church practice and administration NOT doctrine.

 

[GenemZ]

"Logos" in hellenistic culture was reason, a personified emanation from God, through which God created the world.

Chaos + Logos = Kosmos.

It does not mean "the Bible".

Why did John choose to use a Hellenistic term?

For there were many Hellenistic Jews in the world at that time. And, many Gentiles understood Greek concepts which John used to relate to their frame of reference.

It was a Hellenistic word used by John to convey a concept of God to the Hellenistic thinking world!

We have been told that we have been given the mind of Christ. What was that mind?

"It is written."

Think about for a moment....

What was used by Jesus to overcome Satan's temptations? "It is written!"

In the manner Jesus thought God desires us to do likewise.

Jesus having the perfect understanding of all Scripture was allowing the Father to give him grace without restraint. "Grace without measure." The Mind of God as a man would have it.

If you want to continue to argue? Be my guest.

And this is my prayer: that your love may
abound more and more in knowledge and
depth of insight. Phlpns 1:9

​

Knowledge and insight causes the love of God in a believer to abound more and more!

Knowledge of what may I ask?

Grace and peace

 

[setst777]

I don't know if i understood you correctly there but just in case,
there is no special requirement to be filled with the spirit, just convert believe and ask, of course you
are going to want to not grieve the spirit, so you may be required to be somewhat faithful after you are filled to keep the holy spirit as he deserves to be in a clean 'temple'.

There are no fence-sitters in the Kingdom of God. Either you are sold out to Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior of your life, or you are not.

John 10:27-28
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 12:25-26
25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also.
If anyone serves me, him My Father will honor.

Timothy 2:19-21 (WEB)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription:

• “The Lord knows those who are his,” and,
• “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord turns away from wickedness.”

***Carefully read Romans 6

If you are lukewarm, Christ Jesus will spew you out of His mouth.

Revelation 3:14-20 (NIV)
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

How careful you are to live and walk by the Spirit God gave you will determine how filled you are with the Spirit.

SEE: Romans 8 and read it.

 

[NBB]

There are no fence-sitters in the Kingdom of God. Either you are sold out to Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior of your life, or you are not.

John 10:27-28
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 12:25-26
25 He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
26 If anyone serves Me, let him follow Me; and where I am, there My servant will be also.
If anyone serves me, him My Father will honor.

Timothy 2:19-21 (WEB)
19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription:

• “The Lord knows those who are his,” and,
• “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord turns away from wickedness.”

***Carefully read Romans 6

If you are lukewarm, Christ Jesus will spew you out of His mouth.

Revelation 3:14-20 (NIV)
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. 15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16 So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.
19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. 20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

I was taking that if you want to get along with the Holy spirit after you are filled you are required to be 'somewhat' faithful, maybe i said it that way because nobody is perfect i guess i don't know, but if you keep the Holy spirit in you after being filled you are doing things right.

 

[GenemZ]

There is only one God.

Do saved people who today are taught and believe they are saved by works, understand God?

The god they have been told to believe and they accepted is not God. Though saved by grace. They are not worshiping God. Out of misplaced desire they worship a different Jesus.

We are all saved by the same God when we believed in Jesus. Correct? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved" applies to all who do so. But, not all worship the God after they are saved.

For example! Jewish believers in Jerusalem (who were saved) were returning to the Temple sacrifices for their sins. (Heb 6:4-6).

At that point? They were not worshiping God.

You can not worship God in a lie, no matter how good it sounds to the person's own reasoning.

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true
worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth,
for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Jn 4:23-24

Any wrong concept that denominations erect denies the ability to worship God! It must be done in Spirit and in TRUTH! Not good intentions. Not sincerity... Truth, or its meaningless to God!

grace and table salt...

 

[GenemZ]

I was taking that if you want to get along with the Holy spirit after you are filled you are required to be 'somewhat' faithful, maybe i said it that way because nobody is perfect i guess i don't know, but if you keep the Holy spirit in you after being filled you are doing things right.

Faithful to what? To your own concepts about God that are sitting in your emotions? That others with the same emotional pattern will agree with you?

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-8​

Read that? How are we to know His thoughts and ways? If we have no way to know them within our own natural way of seeing things? We need to be taught sound doctrine by God's chosen teachers to come to such understanding.

The Word of God will quite often frighten us to show us how wrong we all will be when its taught accurately. False teachers know this. So they choose what people want to hear. They will devise such teachings to gather people into their class / church.

The Word of God is to TRANSFORM our mind. Not to simply make you feel sure and good about yourself. Transformation is what causes us to have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Many run from it and seek churches that will make them feel at peace with themselves, rather than at peace with God.. But, all the while, being told they are pleasing God.

Satan shows no mercy. We all need Truth.

 

[setst777]

I was taking that if you want to get along with the Holy spirit after you are filled you are required to be 'somewhat' faithful, maybe i said it that way because nobody is perfect i guess i don't know, but if you keep the Holy spirit in you after being filled you are doing things right.

Read Romans 8.

As Romans 6 and Romans 8 teaches, you can only have one Master. The carnal mind use to be your master. However, Baptism represents our being crucified - dying to the Old carnal Man (repentance), and we are now living to serve God.

The struggle between the carnal flesh and the Spirit continue inside the Christian, but those who overcome by faith in Jesus will be victorious over the carnal mind which we died to - the Spirit giving our faith the victory.

We have counted the cost of following Jesus, and therefore have the faith to follow Him. By following Christ, we are living by the Spirit who works with our faith. This is what is meant by being filled with the Spirit.

Blessings.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

ummm.... wasn't the titanic raised ? or was just some things salvaged from it....

The Titanic was raised only in Clive Cussler's novel. The actual wreck is too damaged to enable it to be raised. It would break up in the process. Yes. They have salvaged some items from it and have done a bit of exploring on the wreck. The fear is that the wreck is slowly decomposing and could rust away in the future.

I could have said that the doctrine went down like a lead balloon, but the Mythbusters actually got a lead balloon to float!!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The fear is that the wreck is slowly decomposing and could rust away in the future.

hmmm...
FUNNY!?


I've never once been afraid of that happening! Dust to dust and all.....

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

This is a _very_ surprising piece of info. Do you have references?

2000 Years Of Charismatic Christianity: A 21st century look at church history from a pentecostal/charismatic prospective Paperback – April 19, 2002
by Eddie L Hyatt (Author).

A very interesting book with a convincing argument.

Another book was written by a secular historian who did not have any theological bias to read into his history. He wrote the history as it was.
Christianizing the Roman Empire: A.D. 100-400 Paperback – 1984
by Ramsay MacMullen (Author)

You can get this one on-line as a pdf file.

The problem with many church historians is that they include the information that fits their theology, but leave out what doesn't. For example, a Cessationist historian will leave out all references to miracles and gifts of the Spirit that occurred after the Apostolic age because they would believe that they are non-historic legend. A Roman Catholic church historian will favour the RCC as the true church, and treat all other movements as heresies.

Here is another interesting book:
The Bible as History Paperback – November 1, 1983
by Werner Keller (Author)

This is a great book for showing how the Bible is absolutely true through archaeological discoveries.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

To say that Paul as an inspired apostle had no idea that Romans will destroy the temple, when Jesus predicted it several times, is quite a silly presupposition. Jesus clearly said that it will happen and that it will happen in his generation and some of the ones who were standing around when Jesus said that will be still alive.

The immanent coming of God's kingdom and the end of the age was one of the central ideas of New Testament writings.

Granted. He obvious knew what Jesus would have said about the Temple. But he didn't know exactly when.

The truth about the kingdom of God is a matter of "right now" and "not yet". The kingdom of God in Christ became a reality for Christian believers the moment the curtain of the Temple was ripped from top to bottom. That signalled the end of Judaism. The coming of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost confirmed it. In fact, before His death, Jesus told His disciples that the kingdom of God was within them, and He breathed the Holy Spirit into each of them to show that this is so.

And the "not yet" part of it is because the total fulfillment of the kingdom of God will happen when all is settled and we are in glory with the Lord.

This is basic theology 101 that would be taught in a new Christians class.

So, the notion that the kingdom of God was instituted when the Temple was destroyed in 70AD, seems to be a wacky doctrine to me. I've never seen any reference to it anywhere, unless it was a Benny Hinn or Kenneth Copeland "new revelation" that some disembodied voice spoke to them in a dream.

If you have a sound theological reference to it, I would be interested in seeing it.

 

[NBB]

Read Romans 8.

As Romans 6 and Romans 8 teaches, you can only have one Master. The carnal mind use to be your master. However, Baptism represents our being crucified - dying to the Old carnal Man (repentance), and we are now living to serve God.

The struggle between the carnal flesh and the Spirit continue inside the Christian, but those who overcome by faith in Jesus will be victorious over the carnal mind which we died to - the Spirit giving our faith the victory.

We have counted the cost of following Jesus, and therefore have the faith to follow Him. By following Christ, we are living by the Spirit who works with our faith. This is what is meant by being filled with the Spirit.

Blessings.

You are missing a blessing if you think being filled is that, being filled with the Holy spirit, is actually the person of the Holy spirit entering a space in your inner being and filling that, and various things can happen after that, all good, and all believers should have this, its in line with what the bible says, that already believers were not filled until someone prayed or something happened to them, or asked...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

They were all saved by the same God when they believed in Jesus Christ. All born again.

God is the Word! (John 1:1)

After they were saved? No. They can not be worshiping the same God. For He is the Word.

Don't get it?

The only way one can grow in faith is by accurate understanding of the Word of God. If you believe false doctrine, or a false application of a doctrine taught well. At that point you are worshiping something other than God. God is no more known to us than the Word being made known through us.

Its all about the Word of God once one is saved.

2 Timothy 4:3.. It tell us that many believers refuse to continue to grow in their knowledge of God... Instead, they seek another god according their personal preferences.

For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine.
Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great
number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."​

Many denominations = 2 Tim 4:3!

I have no argument with that on the face of it. What you are saying is true.

But what are you implying? That all Pentecostals and Charismatics who speak in tongues are not putting up with sound doctrine and just believing what their itching ears want to hear? If you are implying that, then why not be straight and honest and come right out and say it instead of giving oblique references that are in themselves true, but hiding your true implication that all Pentecostals and Charismatics are false and probably not genuine converts to Christ.

You would gain more respect by being straight and honest about what you believe. Go back and read the posts about tongues by Swordsman1 and Major1. I have had many enjoyable and respectful debates with those two brothers in Christ. They have always been honest and straightforward in their Cessationist view because that is what they sincerely believe. I have utmost respect for these brothers. A good example for you to follow.

 

[NBB]

Faithful to what? To your own concepts about God that are sitting in your emotions? That others with the same emotional pattern will agree with you?

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-8​

Read that? How are we to know His thoughts and ways? If we have no way to know them within our own natural way of seeing things? We need to be taught sound doctrine by God's chosen teachers to come to such understanding.

The Word of God will quite often frighten us to show us how wrong we all will be when its taught accurately. False teachers know this. So they choose what people want to hear. They will devise such teachings to gather people into their class / church.

The Word of God is to TRANSFORM our mind. Not to simply make you feel sure and good about yourself. Transformation is what causes us to have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Many run from it and seek churches that will make them feel at peace with themselves, rather than at peace with God.. But, all the while, being told they are pleasing God.

Satan shows no mercy. We all need Truth.

Being filled with the Holy spirit as something that can happen after converting is very biblical, you actually are the one who believes that when believing you always receive all the holy spirit you can get. That is not biblical.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

hmmm...
FUNNY!?


I've never once been afraid of that happening! Dust to dust and all.....

Then again, I could have said that the wacky doctrine that the kingdom of God arrived with the destruction of the Temple, went down in flames like the Hindenberg!!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Faithful to what? To your own concepts about God that are sitting in your emotions? That others with the same emotional pattern will agree with you?

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts. Isaiah 55:8-8​

Read that? How are we to know His thoughts and ways? If we have no way to know them within our own natural way of seeing things? We need to be taught sound doctrine by God's chosen teachers to come to such understanding.

The Word of God will quite often frighten us to show us how wrong we all will be when its taught accurately. False teachers know this. So they choose what people want to hear. They will devise such teachings to gather people into their class / church.

The Word of God is to TRANSFORM our mind. Not to simply make you feel sure and good about yourself. Transformation is what causes us to have to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Many run from it and seek churches that will make them feel at peace with themselves, rather than at peace with God.. But, all the while, being told they are pleasing God.

Satan shows no mercy. We all need Truth.

I agree with your words, but not your underlying implication which you have not been honest enough to clearly state concerning those who speak in tongues.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

hmmm...
FUNNY!?


I've never once been afraid of that happening! Dust to dust and all.....

A visitor walked into a German graveyard and heard Beethoven's 5th Symphony being played backwards. He discovered a grave right in the back corner where the music was coming the loudest. Reading the tombstone, he realised that it was Beethoven decomposing!