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Featured A warning about False Teaching in the churches!

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by BCsenior, Nov 13, 2019.

  1. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

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    Hey he not alone saying this kind of stuff. look:
    (i am the worst of them) there it doesn't say: i was the worst.... so?

    1 Timothy 1:15 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
    15 Here is a true statement that should be accepted without question: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, and I am the worst of them.
     
  2. setst777

    setst777 Active Member Supporter

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    What Paul is saying that he was shown mercy while yet the worst of sinners. Paul writes more about this in other places, how he use to persecute Christians, and even giving consent to their deaths. If you think Paul was still the worst of sinners after he was saved and throughout his life, then you misunderstand what Paul is saying.

    Romans 8:17-18
    17 But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were bondservants of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were delivered. 18 Being made free from sin, you became bondservants of righteousness.

    Galatians 2:20 World English Bible (WEB)
    20 I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. That life which I now live in the flesh, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  3. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

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    Its just what he says, he is the worst of them he says, which can be an expression and not that literally he is not christian. i don't know...
     
  4. setst777

    setst777 Active Member Supporter

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    If have to read all of what Paul wrote and how he conducted his life after being saved. Paul practiced and taught that he was now free from sin and a slave of Christ Jesus. Although previously conducted himself as what he felt was the worst of sinners, Paul was no longer so after His conversion.

    I feel sorry that you believe a person can still be the worst of sinners, a slave to sin yet still call himself a Christian. All through the Scriptures we are given the good news of a victorious life of freedom from sin through faith in Jesus. We can confidently claim to be free from sin's control and slaves to righteousness.

    1 Timothy 1:12-16 (WEB)
    12 I thank him who enabled me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he counted me faithful, appointing me to service; 13 although I used to be a blasphemer, a persecutor, and insolent. However, I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord abounded exceedingly with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is faithful and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. 16 However, for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first, Jesus Christ might display all his patience for an example of those who were going to believe in him for eternal life.

    Paul was not living a life of sin after conversion.

    "The church is not made up of sinners, but of righteous people, made and kept righteous by the pardoning power of the blood of Christ. They are righteous because they practice righteousness (1 John 3:7) and when they fall short they depend on the cleansing blood of Christ to keep them clean (righteous) by forgiving them as they confess their sin. (1 John 1:7-9)."
    http://www.edssermonsandthings.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Dec_14.pdf

    In the 42 verses where the word sinner (singular or plural) appears only one could possibly be construed to be referring to Christians in their present state. That is 1 Timothy 1:15, where Paul said, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.” . . .
    . . . (1 Timothy 1:14 NKJV) Now he exclaims how abundant God’s grace had been in saving him from his former life of sin (blasphemy, persecution, and insolence). Then he injects verse 15. This is basically saying how wonderful and merciful it was that Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Up to this point he is praising the Lord for saving a sinner like he had been. Yes, and he says, “of which I am chief” - in the present tense. (Incidentally, this is not the only time that Paul uses the “historical present” to describe his past life – See Romans 7:14ff). Given the context he is clearly showing the greatness of the salvation and ministry that he had been able to receive. To use his word, he “obtained mercy” despite the abundance of his sins of which he had now been forgiven. He is not saying that after he obtained that mercy that he continued to be the chief of sinners. If that was what he was saying then he contradicted everything that he said in Romans chapter 6 which begins with “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?” (Romans 6:1-2 NKJV) and then continues to show that those saved by grace are no longer “slaves to sin” or “sinners”.

    http://www.edssermonsandthings.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Dec_14.pdf

    In the New Testament, “sinners” are those whose life is dominated by sin. The opposite of those who “practice righteousness” (cf. 1 John 3:7 NKJV). The faithful Christian’s life is dominated by righteousness. Notice some of the contrasts between the righteous (the saved, Christians) and sinners: “If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?”(1 Peter 4:18 NKJV) “Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,” (1 Timothy 1:9 NKJV)
    http://www.edssermonsandthings.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Dec_14.pdf
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  5. setst777

    setst777 Active Member Supporter

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    Hi Oscarr,

    Thank you for the discussion on a very important topic.

    When replying to you, I want to apologize to you for using your professed belief that you are still a sinner as an example in demonstrating what I believe to be a contrast to the victory all Christians have in Christ. In doing so, I worded my communication to you in an accusatory manner.

    I must agree with Scripture that we are the righteousness of God through faith in Christ Jesus, and we have died to the carnal nature in order to serve in Newness of the Spirit - to becomes servant of righteousness. My communication was intended to get that message across. My communication was nevertheless not appropriate and appeared harsh.

    I am still not sure what you mean by saying you are still a sinner, or vile sinner. My feeling is that you actually believe this to be true of yourself. Yet, in other parts of your messages, I do not get that impression. Even so, I want to apologize for my accusatory language to you in regards to your statement that you believe you are still a vile sinner.

    I hope you can forgive me and that both of us can work together for the glory of God in helping others come to a knowledge of the Truth, the Gospel, and plant seeds that will help bring others to a saving faith.

    Perhaps we are closer to agreeing than we presently imagine, that is, if we truly understood each other's walk with Christ.

    Blessings and Love
    setst
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2019
  6. Oscarr

    Oscarr Senior Veteran Supporter

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    I don't think that we are too far away from each other in the basics. I agree with your point that we are free from sin. My view is that we are totally free from the power, penalty and condemnation of sin. Sin does not have dominion over us.

    I think that a lot of the confusion is the different definitions of the world "sin". We are no longer sinners in the sense that we are locked into a lifestyle of sin with an unconverted heart and spirit.

    There is a problem with the English language because it uses the same word to describe different aspects of our experience in Christ. Paul talks of the works of the flesh and that anyone who is locked into them, are not converted and will be lost. That is one definition of "sinner".

    But Paul talks of being burdened with "this body of sin and death" which is around his neck like the Ancient Mariner's dead albatross. In Roman times the murder has the dead body of his victim bound to him until the decomposition of the body ends up killing him. This is the image of what Paul is experiencing as a Christian believer being burdened by his flesh. So one could say that while in the mortal flesh, one could still be a sinner in that definition. But he is not a willing sinner in his heart.

    Also, Calvinists were opposed to Arminians, who believed that one can achieve total sanctification by faith, and have a position of sinless perfection by faith. The Holiness movement called it the baptism with the Spirit. The problem with that is that every time a believer fails under temptation, which we all do, one has to be re-sanctified by faith, involving a new baptism with the Spirit. As you can see, the doctrine is unworkable in reality. I think that the Calvinists and Puritans knew this, so they accepted that they were still sinners as far as their flesh was concerned, but their lives were hid with Christ in God, having their sinful flesh covered by the righteousness of Christ, and therefore, in the sight of God, totally righteous and free from sin.

    But this was not sinless perfection in the flesh, and the struggles we have with the flesh, keeps us humble before God and totally dependent in all things on Christ. This means that total obedience to Christ is not sinless perfection, because we cannot achieve that in our mortal bodies, but we discipline ourselves to keep clear of the works of the flesh, and work to ensure that our conduct is ruled by the fruit of the Spirit.

    So, what we have, in reality, is freedom from sin-consciousness. We are Jesus-conscious, Holy Spirit conscious, and so as sons of God, we are led by the Spirit and not by the flesh. This is what Paul meant by "walking in the Spirit".

    I hope that clarifies things somewhat.
     
  7. Strong in Him

    Strong in Him I can do all things through Christ Supporter

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    I agree.
    I also think that there is far more to discover about God - more than is in the bible, and which we will discover after death.

    I don't see what any of this has to do with the subject of false teaching in the church.
     
  8. setst777

    setst777 Active Member Supporter

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    Yes, that is helpful. Thank you.
     
  9. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

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    If it is well transalted... its what he says, also he says: A true statement that should be taken without question.
    I think its just an expression, not that he thinks he is a slave to sin, and not actually a christian.
    Maybe he thinks he is not a big thing without christ.
    Or maybe he indeed is just talking for when he didn't know christ, but why would he say it that way, 'i am...'
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  10. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    Demonically religious. If he had been there, Paul was of the of kind that would have demanded Jesus to be crucified. You can't get worse than that. He stood there and approved of the stoning of Stephen as well.
     
  11. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    The Bible right now contains all we can know about God and God's attitude and thinking while on earth. False doctrine is like the thief sneaking in and stealing away the riches that God wants believers to have. Gold, silver, and precious stones are of the hidden treasures right now in Christ = the Word made flesh. We are in turn to become more, and more the Word being made our life. False doctrine seduces and destroys God's purpose for the believer who gives into the false.

    The Holy Spirit must have the Word taught correctly to us to bear witness to the Truth in us. The Holy Spirit is not going to teach us sound doctrine without the Word being first introduced to us. Yet, if one is humble and sensitive to the Spirit, when presented false doctrine, the Spirit in us will witness to us that there is a reason it does not sit right. Problems happen when emotion over rides truth with bias and making personal experiences their god. Those who live in their emotions hush up the Spirit (grieve). And, if presented correction from another? And willfully denying what it says by distorting Scripture as a devised fort? Then they quench the Spirit. Still having the Spirit in them, mind you. Grieved, or quenched. False doctrine is their justification.
     
  12. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

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    The bible talks about asking things to God, like wisdom etc.
    No the bible isn't all we can know about God, not even close, even here on earth experience with God doesn't compare to only the bible, if its all theory and not much practice then it doesn't work right.

    I prefer that God do something to me, than reading the bible. THe bible is fine and great and truth, don't misunderstand me.
     
  13. genez

    genez Contributor Supporter

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    Can you tell me just one thing we can know about God that is not mentioned in the Bible?

    Wisdom comes from knowing and understanding the Word, while having God's grace granted to us for making an application to a situation.

    Only the Lord gives wisdom;
    he gives knowledge and understanding.
    Prov 2:6


    Those who make fun of wisdom look for it and do not find it,
    but knowledge comes easily to those with understanding.
    Prov 14:6​


    Notice how wisdom has its roots in both knowledge and understanding? Being book smart and memorizing Scripture can not bring wisdom. Understanding of Scripture comes from the Lord.

    There are people that can win a national Bible verse memorization contest, yet lack wisdom. God's grace enables understanding. Then comes the wisdom when needed.

    A person who is yet devoid of knowledge.. let alone understanding of knowledge, can not have yet wisdom. But, if we pray for wisdom? God will first bring the needed knowledge our way if we do not already have it to be the building materials for the wisdom we will have when it comes.

    Knowledge of God's Word is paramount. False doctrine produces wisdom of a fool. "Fools gold."
     
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