Struggles with Calvinism

[Dave L]

here's the really big problem confronting all. If Calvin was right about God, do many "Christians" hate God and worship idols instead?

 

[BryanJohnMaloney]

once again. Someone who thinks they know what Calvinism teaches and they don't.
but answer this question. Since God is sovereign, and He could have sent Jesus to die so that EVERYONE would be saved, but not all p people are saved, which means He ALLOWED freely, some to go to hell, is that a "better"than the way you SAY Calvinists believe. If the reason some go to hell is because He gave man free will and it is up to us to decide is that better. A better more loving God? He knew beforehand who they were. Why did He created them? Why did He give man free will knowing most would reject the sacrifice Jesus made? Why did He send Jesus to the Cross if He already knew the result would be more failure than success?

Better? Why is the unvarnished truth bad? The god of Calvinism creates most people with the purpose of damning them. Or do things routinely happen that are not according to the Calvinist god's purpose?

 

[Dave L]

It's valid. The OP is a new Christian and needs a foundation, not a bunch of verses that they may not know thrown at them.

He doesn't need God's word on the matter?

 

[Tra Phull]

Ahhh...
The "oh, they were never saved to begin with" card.

As I asked before, who is in THE FREE WILL CAMP?

 

[Dave L]

It is true. I was a Calvinist so I know what it teaches.

Many say this without knowing what Calvinism is.

 

[Tra Phull]

It's a SHE, Dave.

By her very thread title, STRUGGLING WITH CALVINISM - the can of worms is open.

 

[joshua 1 9]

He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?

That is not Calvanism. I was just looking at what Calvan wrote about the Serpent and the Tree of the Knowledge. This is quite extensive but this could be a good place to start to see what Calvan really said and not what people claim he said. For example Calvan wrote: "Moses explains, that man, after he had been deceived by Satan revolted from his Maker, became entirely changed and so degenerate, that the image of God, in which he had been formed, was obliterated". By what stretch of the imagination do you see Calvan saying that God delighted in man's rebellion? The reason mankind is able to rebel is because man has the freedom to choose IF he wants to love God or not. If man was not free to choose then he would be a slave.

 

[Butch5]

He doesn't need God's word on the matter?

Calvinism isn't God's word on the matter, it's Calvin's

 

[Tra Phull]

WE are the epistles known and read by everyone.
US.

I would hope Emsmom, who was said to be SEARCHING, would pay attention to people's attitudes and fruits, as well as these "sources" that have been given in this thread, I mentioned Sproul, Pink, Piper and Macarthur as "good Calvinists" - of course the biggie is Calvin's INSTITUTES OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION, which I have read in entirety, but even if I quoted straight from it, I would be accused of "misrepesenting Calvinism" - the catch-phrase of Calvinists against anyone who isn't one.

 

[Butch5]

Many say this without knowing what Calvinism is.

I'm not one of those many. I know what Calvin taught. By his own admission he was a Stoic. The Stoics taught Fatalism. Calvin held to Fatalism he just attributed it to God rather than fate

 

[PaulCyp1]

All Protestant denominations have such troubling, unscriptural teachings, but Calvinism is one of the worst. Which is why Jesus Christ founded just one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church that it would teach the fullness of truth until the end of time. Which is why that one Church remains one in belief, one in teaching, one in worship, one in biblical understanding throughout the world after 2,000 years, while manmade churches that have defected from His Church fragment into more and more conflicting denominations teaching more and more untruths, every year.

 

[Tra Phull]

Emsmom 1 started a thread TODAY, already struggling with Calvinism with what she had read about it even before becoming a Christian.

It would take a great deal of time to read INSTITUTES, works of Arminius, Calvinist authors, Arminian authors, and all the scriptures that each interpret in their own "camps".

For right now, what someone posted about throwing Calvinism OUT THE WINDOW sounds so good...

 

[Butch5]

All Protestant denominations have such troubling, unscriptural teachings, but Calvinism is one of the worst. Which is why Jesus Christ founded just one Church, said it was to remain one, and promised that one Church that it would teach the fullness of truth until the end of time. Which is why that one Church remains one in belief, one in teaching, one in worship, one in biblical understanding throughout the world after 2,000 years, while manmade churches that have defected from His Church fragment into more and more conflicting denominations teaching more and more untruths, every year.

What you're referring to as the "one church" has also strayed from the truth, but that's another thread.

 

[Tra Phull]

Yes, please, PaulCyp - please lay off this "one true church" tripe, you know good and well Orthodox could make the same claims.

 

[reformed05]

Better? Why is the unvarnished truth bad? The god of Calvinism creates most people with the purpose of damning them. Or do things routinely happen that are not according to the Calvinist god's purpose?

He does not create them with the PURPOSE of dam ning them. I would explain the Reformed view but it would take too long and you wouldn't really listen s your mind is made up. And that is fine I have no problem with you believing what you believe. It is a free country at least where I am. And it is not my intention or desire to change anyone's mind. What works me is thing being said about my theology that aren't true.

 

[Tra Phull]

But the thread is about a new Christian being so upset about Calvinism that it makes her want to cry.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

I detest "isms". Calvinism, Pentecostalism, pre-, post-, a- millenialism, how much help are they in the Christian life and witness?

God is sovereign. That should be the cause of the greatest comfort, not distress. God is also love. Pure, perfect, just, complete love. God is also wise. Perfect wisdom. There is nothing in God that is in any way lacking or unjust. God is all powerful. There is nothing that He cannot do. About 35 years ago, I wrestled with some of these issues. The Lord showed me a number of truths that helped me - the Truth will set you free.

• God is far more willing to save than humanity is willing to be saved
• God considers man's will as sovereign. After all, He gave it to us
• God loves all people equally
• If someone cries out to God, He will save that person, no matter where they are or their circumstances
• If you want to know how much God hates sin, look at the cross. If you want to know how much God loves sinners, look at the cross
• God hates sin because of what it does to the sinner, not only because He is holy
• Sinners fear missing out on earthly pleasures. God wants to bless us with eternal joys. And bless us in this life too.
  
• The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. Perfect love drives out fear.

My advice is to take all your concerns to the throne room and ask God. I did. I don't have all the answers still. In some things, God just says, "Trust me, I know what I'm doing". So I do

This is not theoretical. My daughter is married to a hostile unbeliever who hates God. My son was baptised as a child (not my idea) but I can't talk to him about Christian things. I have committed my kids to God's care and I pray for them. Remember that God's concern is for all people. He does not share our attachments to particular individuals.

 

[reformed05]

From checking, double checking and triple checking the WHOLE of scripture... and, seeing your default treatment of others for starters.

Me? The way I treat others? I haven't been treated very kindly and my beliefs were attacked and slandered. I admit I have a hot temper when that happens and I have made amends.

 

[ChetSinger]

I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.

Welcome to CF, and to faith in the Lord Jesus!

Heh, you didn't open up a can of worms...you just pulled it off of the shelf one more time.

I'm not a Calvinist and there are two things I'd like to mention about it:

1. Most denominations and (I'm certain) most Christians aren't Calvinist. So don't feel any obligation to believe it because it somehow comes along with being a Christian; with most, it doesn't.
   
2. If Calvinism were so correct, why did it wait 1,500 years to appear, and thus be called Calvinism?

I prefer scripture: in Peter's first speech after the resurrection he described the age we now live in:

...And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2

I think this is wonderful news: anyone who calls upon Jesus will be saved. I've read that there are hundreds of millions of Christians in the world today, all who have called upon Jesus. We truly live in the age of grace. Hallelujah!

 

[reformed05]

Who, exactly, is in "the free will camp"?

The people who believe in free will.