Texas mom wins right to make her son her daughter

[tall73]

Therapists have been doing that, it's not as if the affirmation approach is the immediate "go to" for everyone who strolls into the office. Counseling and CBT are still the first line of treatment.

...it's just that, if after months and months of that, if it doesn't yield any results and isn't making the patient feel any better, continuing to repeat the same talking points to them, ad nauseam, doesn't make sense and it's worth moving on to another approach (IE: affirmation approach).

I agree in many cases with this characterization. However, at least one clinic is on record that they do not do a lot of screening, do not think it is effective, accept immediately that the child is trans, and they are giving hormones as young as 12, and double mastectomy surgery at age 13.

And this clinic treats a large number of patients.

 

[Ana the Ist]

If you've noticed, I said that exceptions would be things like prison & sports...not sure why restrooms are tossed in the mix (one of these things is not like the other).

No...they're all exactly the same. There's no standard for any of them....one need not currently be transitioning to be trans, right? The only standard is that the person claims they are trans.

If you'll notice, I've brought up "well, should trans women use the mens room then?", and people didn't seem too keen on that idea either.

Why not?

For instance, one can make a well reasoned case than in a prison environment, there could be a safety concern with housing a trans woman with biological women. No such safety concern would exist with treating a trans woman as a women in an office environment or at the grocery store. So a social policy of "no, we have to treat trans women like men, all the time, and constantly remind them that they're men in all aspects of life and society" based on the "what could potentially happen if this person gets sentenced to prison" scenario would be an example of an overkill, sweeping policy.

Not sure what exactly you're blathering about here. If a trans woman becomes beligerrant in a grocery store....one has the option of leaving.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

No...they're all exactly the same. There's no standard for any of them....one need not currently be transitioning to be trans, right? The only standard is that the person claims they are trans.

So you honestly don't understand how the situation of "a trans-woman playing a contact sport against biological women" is different than "trans woman pooping in stall next to you then leaving"?

One creates an increased risk of physical harm, the other does not.

Why not?

You'll have to ask the poster who replied that "I wouldn't want them in the mens room either", I can't speak for them.

Not sure what exactly you're blathering about here. If a trans woman becomes beligerrant in a grocery store....one has the option of leaving.

Correct, if a person is being belligerent a the store, one has the option to walk away...which is precisely why that's not a comparable scenario to prison and shouldn't be addressed the same way.

What I'm "blathering on about" is that it doesn't make sense to push for a sweeping social policy that says "we have to treat trans women like men all of the time because of one or two specific scenarios"

My point was that treating a trans woman the same as a biological woman presents no undue or elevated risk in 99% of life's scenarios. So why push for some social mandate where we have to make 99% of trans-gender people feel bad/uncomfortable out of fear of what could happen with the other 1% when we could simply just take the approach of addressing special scenarios when they arise?

There's a valid reason why one may be concerned about a trans-woman (who happens to be a violent criminal) being housed in jail with biological women who are smaller and weaker. Treating a trans-woman as a woman while they're at Giant Eagle buying presents no safety concerns. Therefore, making the latter feel uncomfortable, using the actions of the former as justification, is inconsistent and makes no sense.

And for the record, the examples being discussed (sports and prison) are things where special considerations and precautions are already taken even when we're talking about people who are all of the same biological gender. They test for steroids in sports, and especially violent criminals get housed in the SHU or solitary in many cases. So it's not as if the "take special precautions in certain scenarios, but have a general policy for everyone else for whom that doesn't apply" is anything new or foreign.

 

[Ana the Ist]

So you honestly don't understand how the situation of "a trans-woman playing a contact sport against biological women" is different than "trans woman pooping in stall next to you then leaving"?

One creates an increased risk of physical harm, the other does not.

What's the standard for a trans woman using the restroom? Is it any trans woman? Or only those who have begun transitioning? Or only those who have finished transitioning?

Correct, if a person is being belligerent a the store, one has the option to walk away...which is precisely why that's not a comparable scenario to prison and shouldn't be addressed the same way.

Then why bring it up?

What I'm "blathering on about" is that it doesn't make sense to push for a sweeping social policy that says *snip*

Answer the first question of this post....the same one you've been ducking....and I can easily answer.

 

[KCfromNC]

Which seemed to be what you were doing with the other poster.

What specific context are you asserting here?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

What's the standard for a trans woman using the restroom? Is it any trans woman? Or only those who have begun transitioning? Or only those who have finished transitioning?

When they've filled out their "Declaration of Gender change" (and had it officially approved) to officially get state records changed to reflect their new gender identity.

For Ohio, the form looks like this:
https://publicsafety.ohio.gov/links/bmv2369.pdf

PA looks like this:
http://www.dot.state.pa.us/public/dvspubsforms/BDL/BDL Form/DL-32.pdf

Maine has this:
https://www1.maine.gov/sos/bmv/forms/GENDER DESIGNATION FORM.pdf

...each state's paperwork may be a little different, but in any case, the process is pretty similar.

You fill out the appropriate paper work to officially have your state records updated, and that paper work requires sign-off from a qualified licensed medical professional in that state, who signs off on it under penalty of fraud and perjury.

Then why bring it up?

...to highlight the fact that some scenarios present physical risks and caveats, while others do not.

So it doesn't make sense to define how you treat someone in every day life, out of fear of "setting a bad precedent" for the random one-off chance that person may go to jail or try to join a sanctioned competitive sports league.

To use another mental issue as an example, a person who's mentally handicapped and aged 16 may only have the reasoning and personality of a 6 year old. There's no harm in letting them play with toys, watch children's shows, and perhaps treating them as if they're younger in 99% of situations as that would make them feel more comfortable than trying to have the same expectations that one may have for every other 16 year old.

However, it would be perfectly reasonable to have concerns about them playing pee wee football against the 2nd graders, so you wouldn't allow that one particular thing, even if treating them as you would a younger person is the right way to go for every other scenario.

You wouldn't say, "sorry, if we treat you as a younger person, you may get some wise ideas about playing football with the younger kids and you could hurt them...so, head up stairs and start on that geometry homework, you want to rest up for your driving test tomorrow"

 

[Ana the Ist]

When they've filled out their "Declaration of Gender change" (and had it officially approved) to officially get state records changed to reflect their new gender identity.

For Ohio, the form looks like this:
https://publicsafety.ohio.gov/links/bmv2369.pdf

PA looks like this:
http://www.dot.state.pa.us/public/dvspubsforms/BDL/BDL Form/DL-32.pdf

Maine has this:
https://www1.maine.gov/sos/bmv/forms/GENDER DESIGNATION FORM.pdf

...each state's paperwork may be a little different, but in any case, the process is pretty similar.

You fill out the appropriate paper work to officially have your state records updated, and that paper work requires sign-off from a qualified licensed medical professional in that state, who signs off on it under penalty of fraud and perjury.

And what happens then? They get a little card that says "I'm officially transgender"? It's not like the police have access to your medical records....

 

[eleos1954]

He’s been diagnosed by 3 different professionals and if the kid agrees then his mother is doing the right thing . My only issue is that I do think he’s too young to make a permanent decision at this age.

The child is 7 years old! Changing ones sex is an adult decision and one is not considered an adult (in most states) until age 18. You could probably get a child to agree to almost anything at age 7.

The child is 7 years old and has no way of understanding all the possible effects this can have on his life going forward.

"Professionals" can and ARE wrong ... many times.

 

[Brightmoon]

Well in. NYC we’ve got same sex single bathrooms. And the city government says that if you object to being in the bathroom with a trans person then you have to wait until they’re finished .

 

[ThatRobGuy]

And what happens then? They get a little card that says "I'm officially transgender"? It's not like the police have access to your medical records....

If by "little card" you mean state issued id and all state records of the individual...police do have access to that.

If it's just some random dude in the women's room, up to no good, and someone calls the cops...they'll be asked for identification, which will expose their facade, and if state laws allow, will be punished accordingly.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Well in. NYC we’ve got same sex single bathrooms. And the city government says that if you object to being in the bathroom with a trans person then you have to wait until they’re finished .

Seems like that's actually the reasonable approach...same as if someone didn't want to be in the restroom at the same time as a gay/black/muslim/mormon/indian/person who roots for the other sports team/person who like pineapple on their pizza/flat-earther/etc...

If it makes someone uncomfortable to share 'excrement expulsion facilities' with <insert type of person here>, then they can wait outside until the bathroom clears if it bothers them that much.

I tend to avoid using public restrooms in general simply because I don't trust the hygiene habits of others...however, I can't petition the state to enforce some sort of rule mandating that everyone else has to show their "shower records" to gain entry simply to appease me, personally, lol.

 

[Erik Nelson]

A Mother’s Madness, a Culture’s Lie

 

[Ana the Ist]

Seems like that's actually the reasonable approach...same as if someone didn't want to be in the restroom at the same time as a gay/black/muslim/mormon/indian/person who roots for the other sports team/person who like pineapple on their pizza/flat-earther/etc...

If it makes someone uncomfortable to share 'excrement expulsion facilities' with <insert type of person here>, then they can wait outside until the bathroom clears if it bothers them that much.

I tend to avoid using public restrooms in general simply because I don't trust the hygiene habits of others...however, I can't petition the state to enforce some sort of rule mandating that everyone else has to show their "shower records" to gain entry simply to appease me, personally, lol.

If a "hypothetical" man (physically) walked into the restroom behind your 8yo daughter....you'd be ok with that?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

If a "hypothetical" man (physically) walked into the restroom behind your 8yo daughter....you'd be ok with that?

I wouldn't completely trust any adult stranger in a restroom with my hypothetical kid, regardless of gender or gender identity.

...but, if your sentiment is that a transgender person inherently presents some sort of greater risk to children than non-trans, you'd need to substantiate that with some sort of data.

Study finds no link between transgender rights law and bathroom crimes - The Boston Globe


...but as I noted before, this idea that I could simply wake up tomorrow morning and decide I wanted to identify as a woman, and stroll into the women's bathroom at the local Target and start taking pictures and assaulting people, and that those sorts of activities are now somehow being done with the states blessing due to laws that allow people to legally change their gender identity is a false notion.

As I laid out above, the process for doing so isn't simply stepping out on my porch, proclaiming "I'm a gal!" and then proceeding to hit the women's shower at the gym...that's a fallacy.

One has to find a licensed medical professional:
A) whose practice included counseling and treating gender identity issues
B) who must provide the name of their organization, state medical license #
C) who must sign off on it under penalty of perjury, and a $2500 fine and potential jail time

...so it's not like a person can complete the process in 5 minutes at an Urgi-care center or a quick visit to their GP.

Apart from the idea of a regular dude wanting to go through all of this just to get a peak at some naked women in the shower being a dubious proposition at best, I don't picture many licensed doctors being willing to gamble their entire lucrative career and professional reputation on putting their pen to paper on something like this unless they have a high degree of confidence in what they're signing off on.

Not to mention, many states have provisions that state that the legal gender designation change can't happen until the name has been legally changed (sometimes for a minimum amount of time) and that hormonal or surgical intervention has already taken place. (Like Missouri and New Mexico for instance)


So to recap:
The fear is that "Tom" is going to wake up and say "Yknow, I'd like to go look at some naked women in the shower...so I'm going to go to a licensed therapist, change my name to "Tomina", start taking estrogen or get my body surgically altered, live that way for 90 days, so that I can get the proper paperwork to legally go into the women's shower starting February 1st"

Seems like quite a stretch...

 

[Ana the Ist]

I wouldn't completely trust any adult stranger in a restroom with my hypothetical kid, regardless of gender or gender identity.

Really? I find that hard to believe since millions of adults have no problem with their kid going to the restroom alone every day....so long as they have no reason to suspect anything wrong.

You made the statement that you "can't petition the state to enforce some sort of rule mandating that everyone else has to show their "shower records" to gain entry simply to appease me, personally."

So again, your 10yo daughter enters the womens' restroom and this guy enters behind her...

You're saying that you're cool with that? Cross your fingers and hope for the best? Wait until you hear your daughter screaming for help before intervening?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Really? I find that hard to believe since millions of adults have no problem with their kid going to the restroom alone every day....so long as they have no reason to suspect anything wrong.

You made the statement that you "can't petition the state to enforce some sort of rule mandating that everyone else has to show their "shower records" to gain entry simply to appease me, personally."

So again, your 10yo daughter enters the womens' restroom and this guy enters behind her...

View attachment 266049

You're saying that you're cool with that? Cross your fingers and hope for the best? Wait until you hear your daughter screaming for help before intervening?

I see when all else has failed, you're going with the "appealing to extremes approach".

Has this "guy" officially put in all of the aforementioned state & medical paperwork to get an official change of gender designation? Is the pic you included what the transgender community often looks like? Is any doctor evaluating this person signing off on a change of gender designation?

Or did you simply google image search for some sort of term like "crazy looking guy", and snag a random pic to try to prove some sort of point?

...furthermore, what is it about a person who's had a legal designation of gender change that makes you think they'd be as much of a threat as the Russian actor you've pasted in the picture of?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I see when all else has failed, you're going with the "appealing to extremes approach".

Your position is extreme. You're proposing that we put 50% of people at extra risk for the benefit of 0.001% of people.

Has this "guy" officially put in all of the aforementioned state & medical paperwork to get an official change of gender designation?

Why? Are you now checking IDs at the restroom entrance? Or are you proposing that only trans people who have officially obtained some sort of state and medical paperwork should use the restroom of their choosing? If so...how would you enforce that?

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Your position is extreme. You're proposing that we put 50% of people at extra risk for the benefit of 0.001% of people.

For my position to be extreme, the onus would first be on you to prove that the provided benefit for that 0.001% of people is creating an additional risk.

Per the link/article I posted earlier today, that's not the case.
Study finds no link between transgender rights law and bathroom crimes - The Boston Globe

Is there some particular issue you have with the methodology employed by the research team at UCLA School of Law in coming to that conclusion?

Why? Are you now checking IDs at the restroom entrance? Or are you proposing that only trans people who have officially obtained some sort of state and medical paperwork should use the restroom of their choosing? If so...how would you enforce that?

The same way anti-predatory laws are enforced now...if someone is engaging in suspicious or potentially criminal activity in a bathroom, the authorities are called, and they come out to assess & address the situation (which will involve a showing of identification in most if not all cases)

...but again, there's nothing to suggest there's any increase in risk
15 Experts Debunk Right-Wing Transgender Bathroom Myth

 

[Ana the Ist]

For my position to be extreme, the onus would first be on you to prove that the provided benefit for that 0.001% of people is creating an additional risk.

I already did...you yourself admitted you'd be checking IDs lol.

Men are typically the ones victimizing women in restrooms....and you want to normalize men in women's restrooms. You don't need a study to figure this out.

The same way anti-predatory laws are enforced now...if someone is engaging in suspicious or potentially criminal activity in a bathroom, the authorities are called, and they come out to assess & address the situation (which will involve a showing of identification in most if not all cases)

...but again, there's nothing to suggest there's any increase in risk
15 Experts Debunk Right-Wing Transgender Bathroom Myth

So wait until they've victimized someone....as opposed to the situation we have now where a woman can tell a man he isn't supposed to be there and if he doesn't leave, she knows she should be careful.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I already did...you yourself admitted you'd be checking IDs lol.

Where? I said the police would be if someone was acting improperly and the authorities were called.

I explicitly said earlier that it wouldn't be my place to get the government to force other people to show me "shower records" for reasons of hygiene (is the example I believe I used), and thus, I choose to avoid public restrooms.

Men are typically the ones victimizing women in restrooms....and you want to normalize men in women's restrooms. You don't need a study to figure this out.

Where did I say I wanted to normalize men in women's restrooms?

Yes, apparently we do need studies, because we have a swarm of internet crusaders claiming there's an inherent risk to allowing trans-women in the women's restroom, when in fact, that actual data shows that there isn't. (per the study I linked)

"I don't need studies" is the argument I get from a lot of anti-vaxxers on another message board I'm on.

Again, per the study, there's been no increase in incidents of assaults or misconduct as a result of allowing trans-women in the women's restroom. Period.

If you want to ignore that based on what you "feel", that's up to you, but in the words of Ben Shapiro, feelings don't trump facts & logic. The data isn't on your side on this one.

So wait until they've victimized someone....as opposed to the situation we have now where a woman can tell a man he isn't supposed to be there and if he doesn't leave, she knows she should be careful.

Sounds like your argument here is a preemptive removal of rights/privileges based on what someone "might do" (which per the study, hasn't been an issue in this case so it's a non-starter, but still...).

By that logic, we shouldn't allow people to buy beer..."what do you want to do, wait until they drive drunk and kill someone before we take action?"