Is salvation by grace alone? Or faith alone? Or grace through faith? or by faith plus repentance?

[JLB777]

now recently a christian cult has permeated this thread with works salvation, I have refuted it, but the poster has a lot of time on his hands to post lots of posts, and I can't refute them all, so I don't recommend reading further. If you do want to tackle it go ahead, if you have any questions message me.

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here is the update after my debate with works salvation users:

Salvation issues are the most important doctrine because it is the method in which we are saved. Almost all religions have some aspect of salvation that is true. But even small errors in salvation theology end up being way off course when you follow it ten or twenty years. For instance a boat that is one degree off course, in a thousand mile journey will completely miss the harbor, or possibly even the island the harbor is on. Rat poison is mostly edible food, it only has a small percentage of poison. That high truth to error ratio makes it palatable for rats. That is the sole factor in the success of rat poison. And that is also the sole factor in why christian cults are so attractive. Anyway, I am not adressing Bible highlighter's posts, as I have logically refuted the main premise. There is no evidence that Bible Highlighter is in fact saved, as he believes he is saved by works, which means he has no assurance by definition. So if he is not even saved himself, how can he tell others how to be saved. It reminds me of the pharisees in the bible, they through their legalism shut out people from heaven.


“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."

matthew 23:13

Since Jesus came there was only two places in the new testament that revealed God's anger toward man. Both were toward the religious hypocrite. A religious hypocrite tells others how to be saved, but cannot save himself. See salvation is a free gift as romans four and ephesians 2 states, yes we must repent of our sin and turn to the true God. But that is a free gift too. We get to repent, after Christ forgives us and gives us a new slate, we are allowed to repent. In the Bible it speaks of "granting repentance" See God grants us that gift. Before Christ came into our lives we were bound to sin, we were stuck in addictive behaviour. But after Christ came He did away with the law of sin and death. The law is a school master to bring us to Christ. Yes in Christ we fulfill the law of love, but that is Christ in us. Not of ourselves, it's Christ's work in our lives. Anyway, I won't ramble on. Bible Highlighter believes the error that all religions teach, that we can work ourselves to God. But that would be like jumping to the moon, heaven is a perfect place. So any imperfection is by default rejected. All christian cults believe in grace, but when interviewed about it, it's really just works. They say that God give us the chance to save ourselves by works, by forgiving us. But again, "Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?" Galatians 3:3

So again, this debate is going nowhere, and I knew instantly that it would not achieve any success. I have debated christian cults for nearly twenty years. And I have never seen a single person converted to christianity. The reason is this..... works salvation feeds our flesh. It is a work of the flesh according to galatians 3:3. Sanctification is also by faith as I have shown in previous posts. Justified by faith, and sanctified by that same exact faith. That is why it says "are you foolish to believe that that which begun in the spirit can be perfected by the flesh".

Mormons are the most recruited christian cult right now. Jehovah's witnesses are following behind, because they are slightly more legalistic, and in this day and age, that doesn't strive well with people.

They don't celebrate holidays, etc.

But if you simply understand grace, and the new testament, romans, galatians, ephesians. Then the law books of the new testament make sense. One you are saved, you are free to get out of your addictions. Now don't get me wrong, many many Christians think that simply believing in JEsus is enough, it's not. You must repent. See the devils believe in Jesus, the Bible says...so what does it make us if we believe too? So there must be a repentance from sin, and submitting to God. But again this is all a work of the spirit, the spirit of grace. We are granted repentance, we are allowed to step out of bondage. It is never mentioned as a work of salvation. Some verses mention works, but there are many types of works, there are works of the flesh, or sin. There is works of the spirit, which is rightous acts done after salvation. And there are dead works, hebrews six. Or those works that we do in order to save ourselves. So I have repeatedly ad nauseum addressed the same spirit of error in this guys posts, and God has revealed that it would not be a good steward of time to repeatedly answer the same questions over and over. I love that the poster has a good heart. That is good. I love that He loves the scriptures. That is good, and I love that he is polite, that is a bonus. But like I said, we can read the whole Bible but read it in the flesh, and not in the true spirit. Like I said the most dangerous errors are the small errors. The simple error that I can work out my salvation in my flesh, no, no, no. Just because I am saved by grace does not allow me the freedom to go against Christ sacrifice and try to save myself. That is a dangerous heresy, and it is the only theology (legalism), that Christ specifically got angry at. He did not get angry at cross dressers, pedophiles or homosexuals. He did not get angry at prostitutes, or people who traded in child sex trafficking. He could have mentioned any of that stuff, I am sure in pagan rome all of that existed. He didn't get mad at temple prostitution. He got mad at legalism. He got mad at those people who knew enough of the Bible to get themselves a following, and draw away disciples after them. I am available to answer any messages, and I will post this in the bottom of the op, first post. I feel that people flock to the grace gospel most, and then secondly they flock to legalism, the true gospel frees you from condemnation and allows a launching pad for true heartfelt love for God and a true experience with holiness. God bless you guys, Bible highlighter will probably be lurking around the forum. His gospel message is not allowed on this forum. No where are we allowed to say we are saved by works. It is a cultic message. So if you wish me to address his posts, just copy and paste them to me. I will spend more time answering your guys messages than I did in this thread. I have given up debate for the most part, because God revealed to me it was part of my fleshly desire to fight with people. I don't wish to fight with people. I wish to set the free from sin. Legalism is not the appropriate way to do that. So copy any post, or scripture that you are confused over, say if you are confused with james how is says "faith without works is dead." I have written entire articles on that specific verse. So we can talk about that, and explain that in light of all the other verses. I have not posted refutations to most verses, simply because I have not been commanded to fight with people. And debate takes considerable time, and if someone is already convinced of their viewpoint, which most are, I will not spend hours doing bible study to answer them. But if you have a question about a verse that seems to say we are saved by works, let me know in a message, and conversly if you feel we are saved by faith through grace and repentance has no place in the gospel, that is the ancient heresy of antinomianism. Or "anti law." That too is in error. Message me the verses you are struggling with, and I will discuss in messaging form.

Here is a Lordship Index,
LORDSHIP-INDEX-–UPDATE-5.doc.docx

Lets talk about how those verses in the new testament depict salvation, and how we are still saved by grace through faith alone, without the addition of repentance. (which is an error many christians make).

Do you believe and teach that continuing to believe in Jesus Christ, is a doctrine of works?

If we believe in Christ Jesus and are saved, then a few years later believe that Allah is Lord, in which we convert to Islam, are we still saved by faith in Christ ?






JLB

 

[createdtoworship]

Okay. First, I cannot stress enough the importance to you in that a person cannot be saved without God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (i.e. By accepting Jesus as their Savior, and believing in His death, burial, and resurrection on their behalf, and in seeking forgiveness of their sins with Him by way of prayer). That is the entrance gate to salvation, and that is the foundation upon which we stand. For if a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to offset that sin, but they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus (See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9, Proverbs 28:13). We also continue to trust in Jesus as our Savior through out our lives. Faith (Belief) in Christ is the foundation of our faith. But this kind of faith proves itself true by works of faith. Without works of faith, one merely has an empty profession in Christ (Whereby they are not living a life that aligns with what they believe).

Second, show me a Bible verse that says that you have to follow ALL of God's laws perfectly to be saved. You will not find it. See, this is where you drop the ball, my friend. You do not understand that not all of God's commands are tied with punishment in the Lake of Fire for disobeying them. Granted, I am not saying for you or anyone to disobey any of God's smallest commands, but my point is that not all sin leads to death. For 1 John 5:17 says there is a "sin not unto death." Paul was not condemned when he disobeyed the Spirit's command to not to go to Jerusalem. Water baptism is not a command that leads to spiritual death (1 Peter 3:21). Jesus even said that there are degrees of sin. For Jesus said there is a greater sin (John 19:11). Jesus said the Pharisees ignored the WEIGHTIER matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42).



Yes. Those commands by GOD in the New Testament (primarily) (Note: Not the ceremonial laws from the Old Testament like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, the dietary laws, for these things have been nailed to the cross - See Colossians 2:14-17, Galatians 5:2, and Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24). For Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

We are New Covenant believers and not Old Covenant believers. Paul preached against going back to the Old Law or the 613 laws given to Israel and Paul preached against the false Pharisee religion that denied God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (or the Messiah). The false Pharisee religion made salvation all about works alone and it de-emphasized God's grace and or nullified it completely. In essence, they taught true Works Alone Salvationism (Which is why Paul spoke in the way that he did in Romans, Galatians, Titus, and Ephesians). Paul was NOT speaking against the process of Sanctification that takes place AFTER being saved by God's grace.

So what you will not find in the writings of Paul is him attacking Sanctification (Holy living, and or good works of the Spirit) done through the believer for salvation after a person is saved by God's grace. Paul is attacking "Works Alone Salvationism" that attempts to deny the Justification Process in coming to Jesus for the first time, and or trying to go back to the false Pharisee religion that made salvation about being justified by the Law Alone (without God's grace) via by circumcision as the basis for one's salvation and or entrance gate into being a part of God's kingdom. To be justified by circumcision means one is trying to be saved by the Torah alone and not by God's grace.

The Torah or the 613 laws of Moses is not a set of commands that is no longer in effect as a contract anymore as a whole. Yes, certain laws have been repeated in the New Covenant, or New Contract, but the New Testament is what we primarily look to in order to follow and obey the Lord.

Believers have to meet the bare minimum level requirement of holiness as defined in the New Testament or New Covenant. Any command that is broken (sin) that leads to the mention of spiritual death, and or condemnation in the afterlife must be obeyed in order to maintain God's saving grace (after one has been saved by His grace). A person cannot obey GOD without first being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. There are commands that the Bible mentions that are not tied with spiritual death or condemnation that do not appear to be a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor. While I am not encouraging any believer to make light of even God's smallest commands, I believe that we can only be condemned by those sins that God specifically mentions within His Word. For in John 12:48, Jesus says that if we do not receive His words, those words will judge us on the last day.



Again, God's grace is in harmony with good works and or holy living. Titus 2:11-12 says the Grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. Ephesians 5:25-27 says that the reason why Christ died for us was as to sanctify and wash us with the water of the Word (Scripture) so as that He may present to Himself a church that is holy and blameless. Romans 5:21 says that grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (i.e. righteous living). For 1 John 3:7 says he that does righteousness is righteous. In fact, we are told not to be deceived about that fact within 1 John 3:7. Yet, I hear the cry from the Belief Alone Only camp that says that we are only made righteous by believing in the finished work of Christ and it is in nothing that they do. Little do they realize their belief.... does not line up with Scripture (i.e. 1 John 3:7).



2 Thessalonians 2:13 says,
"...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth"

This verse says that GOD has chosen us to salvation by two things.

#1. Belief in the truth.
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit.​

Belief in the truth is believing in Jesus because Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). The words "Sanctification of the Spirit" is in relation to progressive work in a believer's life to help them to live holy in this life if we are to go by the immediate context.

(a) “That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:12).

In this verse we see the polar opposite thing being contrasted with 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Not believing in the truth (vs. 12) is contrasted with believing in the truth (vs. 13). Having pleasure in unrighteousness (i.e. sin) (vs. 12) is contrasted with the Sanctification of the Spirit (vs. 13).​

(b) “...and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and establish you in every good word and work.” (2 Thessalonians 2:16-17).

In this passage, we see, two things mentioned again. This time it is mentioned in the proper order. We have a good hope through his grace, which then.... establishes us in every good word and work. Good works. So grace... and then good works (i.e. Sanctification of the Spirit).
​

But just having good works is not enough. You have to live holy and you cannot justify grievous sin (like lying, hating, lusting, etc.) and or abide within it in some way. For Jesus says to those believers in Matthew 7:21 who did wonderful works in his name to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or lawlessness. So they had good works (or so they thought), but they also worked sin and or iniquity, too. This is why Jesus says for them to depart from Him. For Hebrews 12:14 says that without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

See, the problem I have in what you believe is that you do not accept the whole counsel of God's Word. For example: In the Google Document you gave before on Lordship Salvation had a commentary on those verses. I don't know if you wrote the commentary or somebody else did. But your posting of the Google Document means you agree with the commentary. This is problematic at best because the commentary is simply a denial of what those verses plainly say. The commentator offered no alternative rational explanation to those verses but they simply mocked those verses in what they said (in the fact that they propose that no person can obey such instructions when there is no ending thought or conclusion saying that this is so).



A man who has a blindfold on and they are feeling the trunk of an elephant and they say that the elephant is a like a fire hose and they do not realize that there is more to the elephant. Paul here is referring to only one aspect or part of salvation (Which is the Justification Process). The Justification Process is without works and it is founded on God's grace. We are saved FIRST by God's grace through faith in Christ and it is not in anything that we did within the Justification Process. Sanctification Process is an entirely different process that happens AFTER we are saved by Justification. But if you were to take all of Paul's words into consideration, this grace is not a license for immorality. Paul asks the question: Shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? Paul's reply to that question is: "God forbid." Paul then mentions how we are either slaves to sin or we are slaves to righteousness in Romans 6. In Romans 8:13 Paul says that if you live after the flesh (sin), you will die (die spiritually), but if you put to death the misdeeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit, you will live (live eternally). Paul says that we can deny God by a lack of works in Titus 1:16. Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus, and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).



"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:6).

This is in context or view of "Works ALONE Salvationism."
Paul is referring to Israel in Romans 9, Romans 10, and Romans 11.
Most commentators will tell you this fact, and or it is obvious if you re-read the chapters several times and get a feel for them. For they mention and refer to Israel, and the hope that they may be saved. So what is Israel's problem? They reject the Messiah or God's grace. At the time, the Pharisees believed that they could be saved by works alone or by following the Torah Law alone without God's grace. Paul was focused on Israel meeting the requirement of the Justification Process in light of their false belief in Works Alone Salvationism. The Justification Process is God's grace without works, which is in direct opposition to their trying to save themselves by works alone. Paul is not referring to the Sanctification Process AFTER we are saved by God's grace, and he does not bring up the Sanctification Process yet because he does not want to confuse them. For they first need to be saved by God's grace through faith without works before they can enter the Sanctification Process. Paul mentions Sanctification as being necessary for salvation elsewhere (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:1, Romans 8:13).

But you think Paul is referring to the whole life of the believer here, and he is not. Is Paul talking about Glorification verses here? We both agree on those verses on Glorification because those verses talk about how God saves us by taking us home and in bring us into His Kingdom and in one day giving us a new body that is eternal. A person could make the case that Glorification is false because we are only saved by God's grace through faith in Christ. But that would be silly, right? Because that is a different process of salvation.




The attachment is not working for me to see it. I think you have the file set on private (Whereby only you and or others you select can see it).

In either case, may the Lord's love shine upon you today (even if we disagree strongly on this topic still).

Peace, and blessings to you in the Lord, in the name of Jesus.

sir your entire argument lies on a basic assumption: that there are degrees of sin. Some lead to death, others do not. However according to the scriptures all sin leads to death:

“For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it” (James 2:10).

That is how Jesus can say essentially "be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect."

So again, you either obey the whole law perfectly, or you cannot be saved by works. That is why there is grace, for that very reason.

so again, it is relatively easy and straightforward to disprove your view, in one or two sentences. While when you reply back it takes hundreds of words to explain your view. See the Gospel is simple. That is why I can refute your view in one or two sentences while you take hundreds of words to refute mine. I think you are basically trying to over think. When I was a free gracer I had a similar error as you do. But on the opposite extreme. I would read dozens of theology books looking for answers to contradictions that I would have when I read the Bible, it caused a significant amount of stress actually. The reason why I was stressed was because I was fighting God's word. It says what it says for a reason. So anyway, explain how there are degrees of sin when james 2:10 specifically says if you fail in one part you are guilty of all the law.

 

[createdtoworship]

Do you believe and teach that continuing to believe in Jesus Christ, is a doctrine of works?

If we believe in Christ Jesus and are saved, then a few years later believe that Allah is Lord, in which we convert to Islam, are we still saved by faith in Christ ?






JLB

No that is apostacy, But no moral sin was committed in the apostacy. Sin did not take salvation away, the lack of faith did. If Jesus died for our sins, then there is no sin we can commit that would undue salvation. But we can walk away from faith. And it usually happens via sins deceptiveness. When we live in sin we typically will defend our sin to some how make our shame less shameful. If we accept our depravity, then it's less shameful than messing up all the time. Once we accept our depravity and become proud of it, we start to loath other people that say our depravity is sinful, namely because we are now proud of it and will protect it. This will cause us to start to loath Christ and become subject to all sorts of theological deceptions. But if someone converts to islam, usually it's because they fell into sin somewhere, christianity was too hard for them and they wanted an easier religion. Just pray five times a day and your good, no need to repent of sin. So islam becomes more appealing.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

sir your entire argument lies on a basic assumption: that there are degrees of sin. Some lead to death, others do not. However according to the scriptures all sin leads to death:

Not according to 1 John 5:17.

“For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it” (James 2:10).

No offense, but I believe you are taking this verse out of context.
The point James was making in James 2:10 was not that you cannot keep God's laws so why bother trying; James was referring to how the brethren had respect of persons in the fact that they showed favor to the rich brethren, but they showed no favor to the poor brethren. By their doing this, they were not loving their brother and they were breaking the 2nd greatest commandment (to love your neighbor as yourself, i.e. the Royal Law). By their not loving their brethren (i.e. the poor brethren), they were breaking all of God's laws as a result. This is not referring how you break some other command, you end up breaking all of God's laws. This is talking specifically about breaking the 2nd greatest commandment leads to violating them all.

That is how Jesus can say essentially "be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect."

Again, you are reading yet another verse out of context. Matthew 5:48 is in context to other things that were written to it previously. There are actually 7 sub commands or points within the command of Matthew 5:48.

Example:

44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven"
(Matthew 5:48).

Loving your enemies, etc. is a part of being perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. They are sub points or sub commands of a greater command (i.e. Matthew 5:48).

 

[createdtoworship]

Not according to 1 John 5:17.



No offense, but I believe you are taking this verse out of context.
The point James was making in James 2:10 was not that you cannot keep God's laws so why bother trying; James was referring to how the brethren had respect of persons in the fact that they showed favor to the rich brethren, but they showed no favor to the poor brethren. By their doing this, they were not loving their brother and they were breaking the 2nd greatest commandment (to love your neighbor as yourself, i.e. the Royal Law). By their not loving their brethren (i.e. the poor brethren), they were breaking all of God's laws as a result. This is not referring how you break some other command, you end up breaking all of God's laws. This is talking specifically about breaking the 2nd greatest commandment leads to violating them all.



Again, you are reading yet another verse out of context. Matthew 5:48 is in context to other things that were written to it previously. There are actually 7 sub commands or points within the command of Matthew 5:48.

Example:

44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven"
(Matthew 5:48).

Loving your enemies, etc. is a part of being perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect. They are sub points or sub commands of a greater command (i.e. Matthew 5:48).

the very verse you posted says "all unrightousness is sin."

so I was not taking that james verse out of context. It is very easy to refute this. When we believe the Bible, we don't substitute words that the Bible says for our words. We believe what it says.

 

[JLB777]

But no moral sin was committed in the apostacy.

Idolatry is not a moral sin?

Disobedience against any His commandments is sin.

How do you arrive at that conclusion?



Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14





JLB

 

[createdtoworship]

Idolatry is not a moral sin?

Disobedience against any His commandments is sin.

How do you arrive at that conclusion?



Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14





JLB

sir sins are all paid for by the cross. Jesus died for our idolatry, and our adultery, and our lies and cheats and thefts and anything else we have done wrong. Accept one sin, one sin He never died for, and that is if you refuse to repent and believe the gospel. See in apostacy, I have to describe some more information, so I will repost a previous post so some of it will not apply exactly to our conversation but this was from a different post but much of it overlaps....

There are some hard things in life that we must deal with, and it's better that you hear it from someone who loves you. This is probably more important than other posts, I deal with something I haven't talked about because of the controversy. This is not for a new christian, or a younger person, (under 18). There needs to be some parental guidance into what I am about to say. I have not mentioned all of this before, and I may not talk about it again, not sure. It's called apostacy. Apostacy is something that happens every single day. I used to teach evangelism, and I wanted every single person saved. then I realized salvation is not for everyone. You have to be certain breed. Salvation is certainly not for everyone. In fact most won't get it. The road to life is narrow, but the road to death is wide. Remember that. Christians are and always will be the minority. Before I get into the hard topic that no one talks bout, I mean no one, not even theologians. Lets talk about the good part first though. The blessings of righteousness are so many I cannot count. I won't glory in the benefits, because we don't get saved simply for the retirement perks we get (although it may seem that way at first), but eventually we realize what makes heaven awesome is being with Jesus. It's not the lights, the singing, the beauty, it's Him. I don't know about you but I am looking forward to hugging Jesus one day. Eternity will be worth it for that one hug. All else is extra. But yeah once you cross over to the light, from the dark. You start to see things turn your way. The cursed life starts turning into the blessed life. People start telling you, "thanks for speaking life to me and being an example to me. That means more than any monetary gift, is giving the gift of life. Now some harder topics, apostacy. Now realize most theologian will disagree with what I say here, but I prayed about it, and God told me that most are wrong about eternal security, and repentance. Well lets get some background once again, See, I have read up on James from free grace theologians for years . I used to think that James was simply talking about showing your faith among other people, and that is true. However I think if you read the whole book it is sort of condemning antinomianism, or an early christian error of saying that once you are saved God no longer requires any faithfulness at all on our part. That would be the opposite error of over religiousness of the pharisees. The pharisees believed works would save, the antinomianists fell into the opposite error saying you can do anything you want and literally God will forgive you. In other words using grace as a "get out of jail free" card to cover them as far as a free fire insurance policy, but while their hearts were far from God. People do the same thing today, I think of Drug runners in mexico who bribe the catholic priests to offer pardons for their sins for money. Or many many other contortions of the Bible. Salvation is not for sale, and we don't work for it, but the book of James is sort of written against those who thought that we are saved by grace and that God didn't require repentance morally speaking. See in the Bible there is something called apostasy, and it mainly is about people who started out Christian but fell into sin. Now it was not the sin that disqualified them, but sin deceives. And sin distorts and sin contorts proper interpretation of Scripture. Since it is the Holy spirit that illuminates what scripture actually says, when we sin, we grieve the Holy Spirit and we thus become prone to deception at that point. Sin can actually cause our mental faculties to start doubting faith in Jesus, the existence of Jesus, or that Jesus died for our sins. We may have been saved a child, but later on we fell into homosexuality, adultery or drug dealing, or murder or anyone of millions of sins, and our sin started a chain reaction in our brain, then ten years later if we are asked "do you believe Jesus is God, do you believe Jesus rose again, Do you believe Jesus was perfect, and divine?" All those things they will find they start to reject later in life. I talk to atheists all the time, and some of them say they once were christian but it didn't work. I asked them, "did you repent when you were saved?" And none of them said yes. See we can believe in Jesus all we want but if we don't make it personal, trust Him alone, and cast down all our idols, we are not truly saved. We have intellectual assent in His existence, but even the demons believe that. See that is what James was getting at, he was saying that morally speaking if Satan believes in Jesus, what does it make us if we believe in Him. Most of the new testament requires us to be moral. There are at least a hundred verses that require repentance at salvation. We are not saved by that morality, namely because the morality is deficient by nature. But we are required to be moral to maintain that life. Jesus always said "you are forgiven, now go and sin no more." HE was not saying, you are saved by grace now perfect your salvation with works. He was saying, I gave you salvation, now maintain it. Keep it. Hold on to it. Work it. Don't think that I will honor your works as payment for salvation, because it is never enough. But maintain your salvation, work it out. If you neglect your salvation and don't maintain it with good works, as hebrews says you'll drift, doubt, and eventually depart (chapter 6:4). Now if you are on the fence and you think, i can't commit, and i dont want to do it half way, so i will do none at all. That's not what i am saying either. You can be what n is considered a new christian, and people will understand if you don't get it right. Just tell them "i am new at this." You will see their countenance lighten. Who I am talking about are the frozen chosen, those who have been christian their whole lives but no one can tell they have ever stepped inside a church at all. Yes, you there ! If you think i am talking to you, then keep reading. Now don't misunderstand. You are not doing good works to maintain. You do good works because you love your maker and want to honor Him. Over religiousness is trying to please God with your works after the cross. That is not what its about. You get to know the creator by unifying with His sacrifice, by mortifying your members daily. If that does not let you experience Christ, no amount of church will fix that. Now, if you are at the point where you feel you don't honor God with your life, and there is no fruit. Repent, come to Him and He will forgive every time. It doesn't matter if your addicted, or a worst sinner in the county. God will change you if you let Him. But there is a time where departure can happen and at that point only God can cause you to turn away from sin, your free will has been hardened and you heart is no longer able to reach out to God and come to Him anymore, thats why hebrews six says "it's impossible to come to repentance" at this point. And that is when you must plead with Him, beg Him (literally). To save you from yourself. And even though it is impossible for man, God can bring life. But it won't be right away. There will be a process the God will put you through, but the Bible don't talk about it, probably because it's different for everyone. There is another thing.... if your departure caused you to doubt Jesus entirely, then there really is no more hope as you have solidified your eternal state as an apostate. Once you are apostate, there is no more room to reform. Your heart is literally too hard. I actually talked to a girl who said, she used to feel bad sinning, and ashamed. And now she does it all the time with no remorse whatsoever, and she asked..."Am I apostate?" I said, lets put it this way....if I put a hundred pound weight on your chest as you sleep, you will instantly push it off. But if you are dead, that weight will do nothing. If you don't feel any shame for sin, that is a sign of death. Apostacy. So this would apply to you. If you are living in compromise, you have time while you are still breathing to turn. Jesus never said "once saved always saved." He said if your branch does not bear fruit He will cut you off and toss you in the fire. John 15, notice this passage is in the nice gospel. If you are a theologian, and a free gracer you love the Gospel of John, because it does not mention repentance, (the word).
But the passage that says Jesus will cut off all unfruitful branches is in the nicer gospel. That means He wanted new Christians to know this. Even you newbies, need to be vigilant. But having said that, this message is not really for new christians, or people who have been christian less than a few years... This message is not really for kid's , either. I realized that they are too young for this message. Kids need security. So teach them the milk of scripture. This is meat, and this is the hard topics, but we are all adults here, hopefully. This is for those life long carnal christians comfortable in the pew and consistent in their rejection of God in their private life. Thinking I can get drunk every night, I can sleep.with women at the bar, I am once saved always saved, God forgives, so let me party harder.... No sir, if there is no fruit, there is no root. Don't let that sin undo God's work in your life. One sin if we let it reign can undo it. You must fight it, battle it every day. Never give up, because Christ never gave up. Defeat is not failing repeatedly, defeat is when you give up. Only then are you defeated. But you can repeatedly fail and get up again. Look at Olympic gymnasts and ask how often they failed till they started succeeding. Practice makes perfect. It takes three months, studies says to overcome a habit. An addiction may take some counsel, or purchasing of books, or seminars, but nothing is too hard for Jesus. "I can do all things in Christ." When you fall , get up again. It's hard but it will be worth it, if we do not lose hope. Now I want to talk about eternal security. This can be confusing. While I don't believe "once saved always saved." I do believe in eternal security. See apostacy cancels out while one thing is intact. You cannot forfeit salvation if you still have faith in Christ. And no sin can take salvation away, because turning from sin is not actually what saves to begin with. Salvation is a free gift. Sin like I said can take root in the heart and cause spiritual deception, once it gives birth. James 1:15 talks about this. So while no sin can take salvation away, sin can cause you to depart from the savior. See, later in life you can decide you no longer love Jesus anymore and you start to loath His presence. Yes i am talking to you. If you loath Jesus don't think for a second that you have Christ in you. A kingdom divided cannot stand. If you have hate toward Christ, then you have darkness in you. The only thing that heals darkness is by a volition of your free will you crawl out from under. You take a stand in the day, bold in Christ. You have been set free, now go and sin no more. The same power that created the universe from nothing, the same power that raised Christ, is in you. There is literally nothing you cannot do now. So live in that victory.

 

[JLB777]

sir sins are all paid for by the cross.

How does a person apply the the payment for sins on the cross, to their personal life.


IOW, what must a person do the be forgiven of their sin, and cleansed of all unrighteousness?

• If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4



again



If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9





JLB

 

[JLB777]

of saying that once you are saved God no longer requires any faithfulness at all on our part.

That’s Heresy.

 

[JLB777]

This can be confusing. While I don't believe "once saved always saved." I do believe in eternal security.

Please explain the difference.


Do you understand the difference between being “saved by faith” and receiving the salvation of your soul as an end result of a life of faithfulness?




JLB

 

[JLB777]

If you loath Jesus don't think for a second that you have Christ in you.

If you loathe your brother don’t think for a second you have Christ in you.


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

 

[createdtoworship]

How does a person apply the the payment for sins on the cross, to their personal life.


IOW, what must a person do the be forgiven of their sin, and cleansed of all unrighteousness?

• If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.” Luke 17:3-4



again



If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9





JLB

That’s Heresy.

one must simply accept the free gift. We must repent of our sin and accept Jesus's finished work. What this does not mean is that repentance is a work, or that Jesus is simply starting your salvation which must be completely accepted by works. No, no, no...."what was started by the spirit, can it be completed by the flesh?" The Bible says retorically, the answer is of course not. If salvation is a free gift initially, it will always be a free gift. Also note that repentance does not need to be perfect, we can struggle with sin for years, that does not make us unsaved. It's only when you fully condone your sin, and start to become proud of it, that is when you are in trouble.

 

[createdtoworship]

Please explain the difference.


Do you understand the difference between being “saved by faith” and receiving the salvation of your soul as an end result of a life of faithfulness?




JLB

of course sir, OSAS believes that there is not way you can lose your faith. But I talk to athiests all the time that used to believe in Jesus but fell away. Calvinists will simply say they were never saved. But that is too simplistic, as I mentioned in my last few posts, sin can decieve you and cause you to be susceptible to spiritual apostacy, by renouncing the faith after sin has fully concieved and brought death. The sin itself did not bring death, but the results of the sin allowed a situation where we could become self decieved. I believe in eternal security, basically as long as I continue to struggle with sin, not accept my depravity but reject it, I will always be saved. Why? Because I want to be. I have the desire to be in heaven, I don't loath Christ's existence. one thing you will know about apostates, is that their "end is worse than their beginning." They really really hate and loath all things Christ. Just go to the debate section of this forum for awhile, start debating apologetics debates, or creation evolution and soon you will be outnumbered ten to 1 with athiests, many of them former christians. But I asked the athiests one day....I said "I know christianity didn't work for you" but when you were saved, did you repent of your sins upon hearing the good news? None of them said yes. I am not saying that they didn't hear the gospel or believe it, but if you lack repentance at conversion your gospel seed planted in your heart will have no foundation to it, it won't be planted deep in soil, but shallow on rocky ground where the birds can snatch it or the sun can dry it out. I tend to think there are more apostates, than false converts. Ray comfort pushes something called false conversion. Where someone thinks they are saved but are not. Most likely there was a spark of faith at one point along the line, but the gospel seed was not planted deep enough. There are way way more apostates than false converts.

 

[JLB777]

We must repent of our sin

Agreed.

We must repent.

 

[JLB777]

accept Jesus's finished work.

So Jesus is no longer working on our behalf?

I thought He is making intercession for the saints?


JLB

 

[JLB777]

OSAS believes that there is not way you can lose your faith. But I talk to athiests all the time that used to believe in Jesus but fell away. Calvinists will simply say they were never saved. But that is too simplistic,

Agreed.

 

[createdtoworship]

So Jesus is no longer working on our behalf?

I thought He is making intercession for the saints?


JLB

yes sir I believe He is making intercession. But it's not His work that is the problem, His work of the cross is finished. He simply labors for us, on our behalf. You are equivocating the work of the cross with Jesus's post ascension work of intercession. Those are two separate works. Not to be confused as the same work.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

the very verse you posted says "all unrightousness is sin."

Yes, but not all sin leads to death. For the same chapter says there is a "sin not unto death." (1 John 5:17).
1 Peter 3:21 says that baptism does not save us for the putting away of the filth of the flesh (2 Corinthians 7:1 refers to "filthiness of the flesh" as sin).
Paul was not told to repent with the threat of hell fire for his disobeying the Spirit in going to Jerusalem. it appeared GOD was even commending Paul's ministry efforts in Jerusalem. So this means not all forms of sin or disobedience leads to condemnation in the Lake of Fire. In fact, logic even dictates that believers will be rewarded for the good they do and we will not all receive the same exact reward. If everything was based on the efforts of Christ alone, then everyone would have the same exact rewards and it would not be based on their level of loving GOD and others.

so I was not taking that james verse out of context. It is very easy to refute this. When we believe the Bible, we don't substitute words that the Bible says for our words. We believe what it says.

But you are not offering any context to prove that your interpretation is true in any way. James did not say before in James 2:1-9 that keeping the Law was impossible. That was not what he was talking about. You want James 2:10 to support your case that you cannot keep God's laws because if you break one law you break them all (So it is futile to keep God's laws as a whole for having an upright standing before GOD). Show me in the context that is what James is saying. You will not find James saying that. You have to rip James 2:10 out of context to make your interpretation James 2:10 work. It is why you are offering no context now.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Agreed.

Our friend here believes in apostasy (by rejecting Christ), but he does not believe sin can separate you from GOD in every case. For he implies that nobody can stop looking at women in lust, or to stop lying, etc. because he asked me if I have stopped in doing these kinds sins (as if to imply I didn't); Which means that he believes that a believer is saved by having a belief alone on Jesus and that sin does not really separate you from GOD. He appears to say that you have to turn away from sin and towards GOD, but this does not really involve living holy as the Bible describes it (because he implies one can sin and still be saved on some level). But the Bible teaches that we have forgiveness (or mercy) if we confess our sins (1 John 1:9), and we forsake them (1 John 1:7) (Proverbs 28:13).

 

[JLB777]

His work of the cross is finished.

Amen. I agree. His work that He did while He was on earth is finished.


The problem is with unbiblical words and phrases that come from the pulpits of false teachers.


“Placing our faith in the finished work of Christ” is one of many.



JLB