2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

[ewq1938]

Keep in mind that Jacob and his family were called the sun moon and stars by Joseph and Jacob acknowledge that. Also, Moses addressed Israel heavens and earth.

Still not the way Christ used "Heaven and Earth". He didn't refer to them as the temple nor any part of Israel. They are something else that passed away at the cross because the law changed at that time.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Still not the way Christ used "Heaven and Earth". He didn't refer to them as the temple nor any part of Israel. They are something else that passed away at the cross because the law changed at that time.

Since Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets, what in the law and the prophets was Jesus referring to?

 

[Ed Parenteau]

Thanks for redirecting and changing the tone of the discussion Ed.

I think we may even have to back up further and begin with defining what the "Law and the Prophets" even means. It's not a list of instructions (I'm just pointing that out for those that don't seem to understand the meaning). All of the illustrations in the Old Covenant sacrificial system focus on and find their fulfillment in Him. All of the prophecies given regarding the coming Messiah, His kingdom, and His salvation find their fulfillment in Him. To stop at the cross is to miss His full glory and power that He displayed.

In reference to this: "abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances," one commentator writes, "Do you know that to prove the abolishment was final in A.D.70. God allowed the Romans to come down and the Romans literally wiped out ancient Judaism. They abolished the Temple, destroyed the whole thing and there has never been a sacrificial system in Judaism since that time to this day, never. It was wiped out. It was done. It was gone".

That's a good idea to expound upon the meaning of the Law and the Prophets where the CJB calls it the Torah and the Neviim. I will be looking forward to your view on the subject as I have not given it an in depth look.
Getting back to Thessalonians, Thess 2:8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: It sure sounds like the Parable of the banquet:
Matt 22: 7“But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.

Josephus records how the Jews were being crucified in great numbers.
This miserable procedure made Titus greatly to pity them, while they caught every day five hundred Jews; nay, some days they caught more: yet it did not appear to be safe for him to let those that were taken by force go their way, and to set a guard over so many he saw would be to make such as great deal them useless to him. The main reason why he did not forbid that cruelty was this, that he hoped the Jews might perhaps yield at that sight, out of fear lest they might themselves afterwards be liable to the same cruel treatment. So the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest, when their multitude was so great, that room was wanting for the crosses, and crosses wanting for the bodies. (19)

 

[mkgal1]

Now unless you plan arguing with the dictionary, to fulfill doesn't in any way mean "to finish", especially as you're taking it. It means "to complete", "to bring to completion". The very word itself is partly self explanatory: ful-fill, "to fill up", "to make full". Even the word "finish" as a verb still points to the word "complete".

Same thing. You clearly haven't studied the meaning of the word but I have.


G4137
πληρόω
plēroō
play-ro'-o
From G4134; to make replete, that is, (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (figuratively) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, X after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfil, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.
Total KJV occurrences: 90

I agree with EWQ - there's no difference between "finish" and "to bring to completion". But that didn't occur at the cross.

Matthew 5:18 ~ For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

Did any version of "heaven and earth" pass away at the cross?

Quoting from "HEAVEN AND EARTH SHALL PASS AWAY"
By Evangelist John L. Bray
We have to go to the Old Testament to see what "heaven and earth" means in prophetic language.

In Deuteronomy 32:1, in the song of Moses, God is talking to Israel when He says: "Give ear, 0 ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, 0 earth, the words of my mouth"
In the song of Moses, God is depicting the fate of Israel when He says: "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains" (vs. 22).

Is God here talking about burning up the earth? No, he is talking about bringing judgment upon Israel. He had already told them the type of judgment they could expect. "The LORD shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand" (Deut. 28:49).

In the song of Moses, God is telling His people that He had delivered them from the oppressor, but that if they became disobedient He would bring all sorts of trouble upon them. It was a song of deliverance, but also a song of warning. In Revelation 15:2-3 we see the saints singing the song of Moses, and also the song of the Lamb, after they had gotten their victory over the Beast.

But apocalyptic and symbolical language is used in the song of Moses in describing the judgment of God. When Israel is finally destroyed, it is as though heaven and earth are burned up.

In Isaiah 51:13 God said that He had "stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth" Once again, is God speaking here of the literal heavens and earth?

Read on in this same passage to verse 16: "And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foun¬dations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people."

Read that verse again. It could not be talking of the formation of the literal heavens and earth, for that had taken place more than 3,000 years before! So, then, what is He talking about? The verse explains itself. He is talking about "Zion." He is talking about "my people" In other words, He is talking about Israel. He is talking in this verse about the formation of Israel.

And in Matthew 24:35 Jesus is talking about the passing away of Israel when He speaks of heaven and earth passing away. This is what the entire 24th chapter of Matthew is about - the passing away of old Israel. ~ https://www.amazon.com/Heaven-earth-shall-pass-Matthew/dp/B0006QGZHA

​

And another thing: there is a connection from Genesis to Revelation relevant to God's covenant with His people and the language and description of the garden of Eden compared to the Temple.

Quoting
The Temple Symbolism in Genesis

by Ernest L. Martin, Ph.D, 1977

The Bible is consistent from Genesis to Revelation. The matter of the Temple and its symbolism is an example of this. In this Exposition we show the beginning and ending of God’s plan for the redemption of mankind. It is a glorious plan from which God has never varied — in the typical sense.
The temple was a physical replica of God’s heavenly abode. When Moses was first ordered to construct a temple, he was told to make it portable — it was a tent, or tabernacle.

“Let them make me a sanctuary: that I may dwell among them. According to all that I show you, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall you make it.” 1
Exodus 25:8–9​

• 
  

In the Book of Hebrews we are told that the tabernacle, and all its services, were “patterns of things in the heavens” (Hebrews 9:23). The physical objects associated with the earthly sanctuary were “figures of the true” (Hebrews 9:24) — the “shadow of heavenly things” (Hebrews 8:5). Each physical item had its spiritual counterpart in heaven. So, as long as there was a tabernacle or temple on earth, there was a material reflection of God’s heavenly palace for mankind to see. 2 The temple represented God’s home on earth.
~ http://www.askelm.com/temple/t040301.htm

​

The whole Temple as a microcosm is a huge topic all on its own (but I hate to disrupt this flow of conversation) so I'm going to hold off on a new thread on that right now.

The narrative I see from Genesis to Revelation has to do with God - Himself - restoring what was destroyed in the Garden (and it's not complete at the Cross - that's stopping short of the full glory, IMO).

​

This - I believe - is a key passage to look at in Genesis:

“And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord. And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the Lord said unto Cain, ‘Why are you wroth? and why is your countenance fallen? If you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And unto you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.’ And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.”Genesis 4:3–8


There are three major points to consider in this narrative. First, both men decided to bring offerings at a set time of the year — on a particular day. The phrase “in process of time,” in Hebrew, means “at the end of days.” It often signified the end of the agricultural (or civil) year (1 Kings 17:7) and was near the beginning of Autumn. Recall that the Israelites were required to appear three times in the year at the temple (Exodus 23:14–17). One of these occasions was “at the end of the year” (verse 16). This was the season of Tabernacles. Cain brought token offerings of his crops “at the end of days.” This shows the brothers must have appeared before God at a precise time near the Autumn of the year. This means they must have been told by God when to bring them.

Second, they also must have been told where to bring them because they “brought” their offerings to one altar.

Third, they were no doubt told what to bring. God would hardly have been angry with Cain unless he brought offerings not sanctioned by God.

This is similar to what happened with the later Israelites in regard to the temple. They were told when, where, and what to bring to the temple. All sacrificial offerings could only be presented at the sanctuary. Under no circumstances was any other location allowed (Deuteronomy 16:5–6, 11, 16). With Cain and Abel, the same factors are in evidence. Back at that time, they went to the area where they knew God had been dwelling — He was a resident of the Garden. They built their altar as close to God as possible near the East entrance (the gate or door) to the Garden. ~ The Temple Symbolism in Genesis​

 

[mkgal1]

From the Old Testament - these are the seven feasts that were to be observed (as patterns for His restoration and redemption) ALL isn't complete until the cycle is complete. Stopping at the Cross is actually stopping in the beginning - at Passover:

• 
  
  • Feast of Passover – first month, fourteenth day; Passover celebrates redemption from Egypt
  • Feast of Unleavened bread – first month, fifteenth day; Unleavened bread celebrates departure from Egypt
  • Feast of First fruits – first month, second day of the feast of unleavened bread; First fruits celebrate provision for harvest
  • Feast of Weeks – fifty days after Feast of First fruit; Feast of Weeks celebrates thanksgiving for harvest
  • Feast of Trumpets – seventh month; Celebrates rest, beginning of a new time, new year
  • Day of Atonement – seventh month, tenth day; Celebrates purification of the nation
  • Feast of Tabernacles – seventh month, fifteenth day; Crops are gathered, the harvest is complete

Passover = Christ is sacrificed, He is the Passover Lamb

Unleavened bread = Burial of Christ

First fruits = Resurrection of Christ and the saints

Weeks = Coming of the Holy Spirit

Trumpets = Coming of Christ in salvation/Parousia

Day of Atonement = Judgment and redemption of all believers

Tabernacles = Kingdom of Christ is instituted

 

[mkgal1]

For goodness sakes, Yes He is!

He is talking about literal heaven and earth, not "metaphorical" Israel.

IF you had followed the line of reasoning that John Bray laid out about Isaiah 51 - you'd see that it's NOT the literal creation that was being written of there - because this was a time....thousands of years into the history of creation that was being spoken of (when God originally made the Israelites the "People of God"). BTW - I actually don't agree with Bray's use of "Israel" (saying that "heaven and earth" = Israel) because Israel has always been "the People of God" and that was never destroyed or passed away. Using that term, IMO, confuses an already confusing enough topic even more.

Isaiah 51:4-6
“Listen to Me, My people;
And give ear to Me, O My nation:
For law will proceed from Me,
And I will make My justice rest
As a light of the peoples.
My righteousness is near,
My salvation has gone forth,
And My arms will judge the peoples;
The coastlands will wait upon Me,
And on My arm they will trust.
Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
And look on the earth beneath.
For the heavens will vanish away like smoke,
The earth will grow old like a garment,
And those who dwell in it will die in like manner;
But My salvation will be forever,
And My righteousness will not be abolished.

Isaiah 51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth;
I have covered you with the shadow of My hand,
That I may plant the heavens,
Lay the foundations of the earth,
And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’”

 

[mkgal1]

So this scripture:

2 Peter 3:7,
But by the same word, the heavens and the earth that now exist are being reserved for fire, kept for the Day of Judgment and destruction of the ungodly. (MEV)

...that scripture is talking about the destruction of Israel? (can't believe I'm asking this)

Okay.

Then verse 10,

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat. The earth also and the works that are in it will be burned up. (MEV)

So Israel will pass away with a loud noise?

Amazing!

So...what are the "elements" of Israel?

I'd like to know; seeing as they'll be consumed by intense heat.

We've gotten too far off topic for too long on this. I'll start a new thread (and will edit with link): ETA - here's the link to a new thread: Heaven and Earth passing away - what does this mean?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

We've gotten too far off topic for too long on this. I'll start a new thread (and will edit with link):

Hello mkgal.
I have a few threads on the NH&E in case any are intersted.........

Views on the New Heaven and Earth in Revelation 21:1

Partial Preterist Only - What are the Partial Preterists view of the New Heaven and Earth in the Bible

A-Mil Only - Amill views on the New Heaven and Earth in Bible

Views on the New Heaven/s and Earth mentioned in OT and NT

 

[mkgal1]

Hello mkgal.
I have a few threads on the NH&E in case any are intersted.........

Thanks, LLoJ. I just created a new thread before seeing this post. I'll check out those other threads though. Thank you

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thanks, LLoJ. I just created a new thread before seeing this post. I'll check out those other threads though. Thank you

I will also check out your new thread.
The views on that topic are as are the sand of the sea.............

google search "new heaven and earth commentaries"

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-ab&sxsrf=ACYBGNQHdCLbKz8PnA94R0zrwNWaeiY5rw:1572386504347&source=hp&ei=yLa4XdSbEovitQWGqJ_4CA&q=new+heaven+and+earth+commentaries&oq=new+heaven+&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.35i39l2j0j0i10j0l3j0i10j0j0i10.2643.5986..8178...0.0..0.317.1090.10j3-1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i131.J8oZTlCIaBQ
About 26,900,000 results (0.61 seconds)
============================================
The wild Beasts from the Sea and from the Land

1Ki 4:20
Judah[Land Beast?] and Israel[Sea Beast?] were as numerous as the sand by the sea in multitude, eating and drinking and rejoicing.
============================
Rom 9:27
Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, The remnant will be saved.

Rev 20:8
and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.

 

[mkgal1]

The views on that topic are as are the sand of the sea.............

Exactly!

 

[Messenger 3k]

IF you had followed the line of reasoning that John Bray laid out about Isaiah 51 - you'd see that it's NOT the literal creation that was being written of there

Sorry, there was zero concrete reasoning there pointing to heaven and earth as Israel.

I actually don't agree with Bray's use of "Israel" (saying that "heaven and earth" = Israel) because Israel has always been "the People of God" and that was never destroyed or passed away. Using that term, IMO, confuses an already confusing enough topic even more.

You're piling up confusion upon confusion, and it's getting funnier.

1 Corinthians 14:33 comes to mind.

For the heavens will vanish away like smoke,
The earth will grow old like a garment,
And those who dwell in it will die in like manner;
But My salvation will be forever,
And My righteousness will not be abolished.

Same thing as in 2 Peter 3:7. Next!

Isaiah 51:16
And I have put My words in your mouth;
I have covered you with the shadow of My hand,
That I may plant the heavens,
Lay the foundations of the earth,
And say to Zion, ‘You are My people.’”

Here,

"I have put My words in your mouth and have covered you with the shadow of My hand, to establish the [renewed] heavens and lay the foundations of the [renewed] earth, and to say to Zion (Jerusalem), ‘You are My people.’ ” (AMP)

You're welcome.

 

[Messenger 3k]

We've gotten too far off topic for too long on this. I'll start a new thread (and will edit with link): ETA - here's the link to a new thread: Heaven and Earth passing away - what does this mean?

No need. It'll head nowhere.

Thank you folks! You've all been kind!

 

[ewq1938]

Since Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets, what in the law and the prophets was Jesus referring to?

Everything pertaining to Him and what he was to fulfill.

 

[mkgal1]

You're piling up confusion upon confusion, and it's getting funnier.

I didn't elaborate - because I wanted to bring the topic elsewhere. I believe it's more clear by saying "covenant with Israel".

 

[mkgal1]

Everything pertaining to Him and what he was to fulfill.

Which would have to include ALL the feasts as well - correct? In the Old Testament - they were just shadows ......He was to fulfill the true meaning of the feasts (and I believe He already has)......at the appropriate timing.

Michael Krall writes: "Just as the period covering Passover to the coming out of Egypt was 40 years is it a mere coincidence that from the cross to the consummation of the Old Covenant in AD 70 and the bringing in of the New Covenant (the New Heavens and New Earth) was also 40 years?"

 

[ewq1938]

Which would have to include ALL the feasts as well - correct?

I don't think so. But if if so, Christ fulfilled all that was needed at the cross. Nothing was left unfulfilled as pertaining to what Christ came to fulfill.

Michael Krall writes: "Just as the period covering Passover to the coming out of Egypt was 40 years is it a mere coincidence that from the cross to the consummation of the Old Covenant in AD 70 and the bringing in of the New Covenant (the New Heavens and New Earth) was also 40 years?"

The old covenant was not consummated in AD70. That covenant was broken long before Christ was born and existed in that broken form until the cross when it was replaced by the new cov.

 

[mkgal1]

Everything pertaining to Him and what he was to fulfill.

Which would have to include ALL the feasts as well - correct? In the Old Testament - they were just shadows ......He was to fulfill the true meaning of the feasts (and I believe He already has)......at the appropriate timing.

Michael Krall writes: "Just as the period covering Passover to the coming out of Egypt was 40 years is it a mere coincidence that from the cross to the consummation of the Old Covenant in AD 70 and the bringing in of the New Covenant (the New Heavens and New Earth) was also 40 years?"

I don't think so. But if if so, Christ fulfilled all that was needed at the cross. Nothing was left unfulfilled as pertaining to what Christ came to fulfill.



The old covenant was not consummated in AD70. That covenant was broken long before Christ was born and existed in that broken form until the cross when it was replaced by the new cov.

Yes.....you could even say that - technically - the Old Covenant was broken many times.....but, the way I see it is, that God had great patience, mercy, and sovereignty in how He orchestrated all the things that led up to the first advent of the Messiah and His fulfillment of ALL that was prophesied of Him (which, I believe, included all that led up to the entire destruction of the ancient city of Jerusalem and the entire religious system that was a part of the Old Covenant).

One of the main prophecies had been given to Daniel. This is the timing for that (and it didn't end at the cross):

 

[Joy]

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[Messenger 3k]

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Is this an actual person, or a bot?

Genuine question.