2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

mkgal1

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This was brought up in another thread (and it was off topic there) so I wanted to continue the discussion here.


In regards to this passage:

Greeting

1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy: To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
God's Judgment and Glory
3 We must always thank God for you, brothers, which is fitting, since your faith is flourishing, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing.
4 Therefore we ourselves boast about you among God's churches-about your endurance and faith in all the persecutions and afflictions you endure.
5 It is a clear evidence of God's righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God's kingdom, for which you also are suffering,
6 since it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and [to reward] with rest you who are afflicted, along with us. [This will take place] at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels,
8 taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don't know God and on those who don't obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of everlasting destruction, away from the Lord's presence and from His glorious strength,
10 in that day when He comes to be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed.
BABerean2 said:
The Dipensationalists normally do not agree with me on 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, because it reveals Christ returning to planet earth "in flaming fire", taking vengeance on those who do not know God.

What do you think the passage is about?

I will give others a chance to give their views first.
 
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dqhall

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This was brought up in another thread (and it was off topic there) so I wanted to continue the discussion here.

It was posted:




I will give others a chance to give their views first.
Reminds me of the saying, “Sink or swim.” The scripture, “Many are called, few are chosen.” Some doctrine about forgive if you want to be forgiven.

If you give a cup of cold water in God’s name to someone because he/she is a follower of Christ, you will not lose your reward.

It helps me through my life.
 
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mkgal1

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Look at one key phrase in 2 Thessalonians:

"God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted" v. 7​

What do you make of that phrase? Because I believe that was addressing the first century followers of Jesus that were experiencing the effects of this:

Luke 21:24 ~ They will be killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the period of the Gentiles comes to an end.

If this is still in the future, then Paul was just offering false and empty hope to the Thessalonians - and I don't believe that is so.​
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Look at one key phrase in 2 Thessalonians:
"God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted" v. 7​

What do you make of that phrase? Because I believe that was addressing the first century followers of Jesus that were experiencing the effects of this:
Luke 21:24 ~ They will be killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the period of the Gentiles comes to an end (otherwise Paul was just offering false and empty hope to the Thessalonians - and I don't believe that is so).
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matthew 24:3 Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us! when shall these be being?and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?
James 5:8 be ye patient!, also stand-fast the hearts of ye, that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448> (5758);
1 Peter 4:7 Of all-things yet the End<5056> is nigh<1448> be sane then, and be sober into the prayers,
Revelation 1:3 Blessed/happy the one reading and the ones hearing the words of the Prophecy and keepings in it having been written/gegrammena <1125> (5772), That the Time/Season is nigh<1451>.
Revelation 22:10 And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this. That the Time/Season is nigh<1451>
========================
A preterist commentary on that passage:

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10: A Preterist Commentary - Revelation Revolution

A Preterist Commentary on 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10: Summary and Highlights

According to 2 Thessalonians 1:7, Jesus is said to be “revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels” during the second coming. This aspect of the second coming is described in greater detail in Revelation 19:11-14. Here Jesus leads an angelic army in the sky like that mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:7. An angelic army was recorded in the sky in A.D. 66, at the start of the Jewish War. In describing this angelic army in the sky, the Jewish historian Yosippon states that these angelic soldiers were horses and riders of fire in literal fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 1:7: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.”


The fact that “Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire” is also a reference to the destruction of Israel, the earth, by fire. Immediately after this fiery army of angels was seen in the clouds, the Roman legions attacked and burned the province of Israel leaving much of it a charred wasteland. Thus the Lord Jesus had truly been “revealed from heaven in blazing fire” during Israel’s first century war with Rome. For a detailed explanation of the literal historical fulfillment of these verses in the first century see the following commentary on 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10.


Yosippon records an angelic army in the sky in A.D. 66 with soldiers and horses of fire in literal fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 1:7: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.”

The following may seem unbelievable. However, all information is taken from unbiased historical records and is easily verifiable. Sources listed at the end.

The Jewish Historian Yosippon records a Fiery Angelic Army in the Sky in A.D. 66 That LITERALLY Fulfills 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Preterist Commentary: The Trouble in v. 6 is the Persecution of Christians in the First Century.

Verse 6 opens with a promise. God “will pay back trouble to those who trouble” His people. 2 Thessalonians is believed to have been written around A.D. 51 or 52. Therefore, the “trouble” or persecution mentioned in vs. 6-7 is the first century persecution of Christians by their Jewish brethren mentioned often in the New Testament and in the Book of Acts (Acts 8:1-3, 12:1-4 and 26:10). Eusebius also mentions this persecution:

First they [the Jews] stoned Stephen to death; then James the son of Zebedee and the brother of John was beheaded; and finally James, the first after our Saviour’s Ascension to be raised to the bishop’s throne there, lost his life in the way described, while the remaining apostles, in constant danger from murderous plots, were driven out of Judaea
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism
Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66


Da Cortona, Pietro. Martyrdom of Saint Stephen. 1660. Hermitage Museum.

In fulfillment of vs. 6-10 the Jewish persecution of the Christian saints mentioned in vs. 6-7 is believed to have ended at the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70. As a consequence of the Jewish War antisemitism ran rampant throughout Rome during the Flavian Dynasty. This anti-Jewish sentiment was so bad, in fact, that Titus had to send away his Jewish lover, Queen Berenice, shortly after the fall of Jerusalem. Not only were the Jews in no position to persecute the saints at this time, they also had less motive.

First-century Jews largely persecuted the early church because of a zeal for the Law which Christians often challenged by disrupted their synagogues and declaring that the Law was passing away. When the Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70, the predictions of the saints proved accurate and Christianity and Judaism officially separated into two entirely separate and distinct religions. This schism occurred because of this persecution as well as the fact that Judaism underwent significant changes as a result of the fact that the Temple had been destroyed and the Law could no longer be fully practiced. With Christianity now seen as an entirely separate religion and no longer just a sect of Judaism, Christians and Jews then began to worship in separate churches and synagogues.2

Gerome, Jean-Leon. The Christian Martyrs’ Last Prayer. 1863-1883. Walters Art Museum, Baltimore.

Addressing the persecution of the saints, Jesus is recorded to have said, “And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly (Luke 18:7-8).” The justice spoken of here is hinted at in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10.
==================================
 
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klutedavid

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This was brought up in another thread (and it was off topic there) so I wanted to continue the discussion here.
It was posted:
I will give others a chance to give their views first.
Here is the passage you quoted from Paul's letter to the Thessalonians.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
And to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.

The passage as written above will not permit an interpretation but can only be read at face value. To apply an interpretation to that passage would require that other scripture is quoted.

The passage above certainly states that believer's will find relief from their suffering when Jesus returns. Also the passage clearly states that the saints will glorify Jesus on that day. It is beyond any question that Paul identifies a specific day in the future, that both saints and those that do not know God. Will both on that specific day will see Jesus revealed from heaven.

Any other opinion on this quoted passage is invalid.
 
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klutedavid

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The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

========================
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10: A Preterist Commentary - Revelation Revolution

A Preterist Commentary on 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10: Summary and Highlights

According to 2 Thessalonians 1:7, Jesus is said to be “revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels” during the second coming. This aspect of the second coming is described in greater detail in Revelation 19:11-14. Here Jesus leads an angelic army in the sky like that mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:7. An angelic army was recorded in the sky in A.D. 66, at the start of the Jewish War. In describing this angelic army in the sky, the Jewish historian Yosippon states that these angelic soldiers were horses and riders of fire in literal fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 1:7: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.”


The fact that “Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire” is also a reference to the destruction of Israel, the earth, by fire. Immediately after this fiery army of angels was seen in the clouds, the Roman legions attacked and burned the province of Israel leaving much of it a charred wasteland. Thus the Lord Jesus had truly been “revealed from heaven in blazing fire” during Israel’s first century war with Rome. For a detailed explanation of the literal historical fulfillment of these verses in the first century see the following commentary on 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10.


Yosippon records an angelic army in the sky in A.D. 66 with soldiers and horses of fire in literal fulfillment of 2 Thessalonians 1:7: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.”

The following may seem unbelievable. However, all information is taken from unbiased historical records and is easily verifiable. Sources listed at the end.

The Jewish Historian Yosippon records a Fiery Angelic Army in the Sky in A.D. 66 That LITERALLY Fulfills 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

2 Thessalonians 1:6 Preterist Commentary: The Trouble in v. 6 is the Persecution of Christians in the First Century.
Verse 6 opens with a promise. God “will pay back trouble to those who trouble” His people. 2 Thessalonians is believed to have been written around A.D. 51 or 52. Therefore, the “trouble” or persecution mentioned in vs. 6-7 is the first century persecution of Christians by their Jewish brethren mentioned often in the New Testament and in the Book of Acts (Acts 8:1-3, 12:1-4 and 26:10). Eusebius also mentions this persecution:

First they [the Jews] stoned Stephen to death; then James the son of Zebedee and the brother of John was beheaded; and finally James, the first after our Saviour’s Ascension to be raised to the bishop’s throne there, lost his life in the way described, while the remaining apostles, in constant danger from murderous plots, were driven out of Judaea.1


Da Cortona, Pietro. Martyrdom of Saint Stephen. 1660. Hermitage Museum.

In fulfillment of vs. 6-10 the Jewish persecution of the Christian saints mentioned in vs. 6-7 is believed to have ended at the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70. As a consequence of the Jewish War antisemitism ran rampant throughout Rome during the Flavian Dynasty. This anti-Jewish sentiment was so bad, in fact, that Titus had to send away his Jewish lover, Queen Berenice, shortly after the fall of Jerusalem. Not only were the Jews in no position to persecute the saints at this time, they also had less motive.

First-century Jews largely persecuted the early church because of a zeal for the Law which Christians often challenged by disrupted their synagogues and declaring that the Law was passing away. When the Temple was destroyed in A.D. 70, the predictions of the saints proved accurate and Christianity and Judaism officially separated into two entirely separate and distinct religions. This schism occurred because of this persecution as well as the fact that Judaism underwent significant changes as a result of the fact that the Temple had been destroyed and the Law could no longer be fully practiced. With Christianity now seen as an entirely separate religion and no longer just a sect of Judaism, Christians and Jews then began to worship in separate churches and synagogues.2


Gerome, Jean-Leon. The Christian Martyrs’ Last Prayer. 1863-1883. Walters Art Museum, Baltimore.

Addressing the persecution of the saints, Jesus is recorded to have said, “And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off? I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly (Luke 18:7-8).” The justice spoken of here is hinted at in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10.


==================================
Paul is talking about a specific day in the future when those that don't know God and do not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ. Will see the return of Jesus Christ and face judgement with fire.

2 Thessalonians 1:8
Dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

This is the single day of judgement for humanity and the redemption of the saints.

The passage quoted in the OP cannot undergo any interpretation. The passage in the OP will not permit a restricted interpretation and applied to the Jews only.

Paul is talking to the Thessalonians about their deliverance and judgement, Paul is not addressing anyone else.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Look at one key phrase in 2 Thessalonians:

"God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted" v. 7​

What do you make of that phrase? Because I believe that was addressing the first century followers of Jesus that were experiencing the effects of this:
Luke 21:24 ~ They will be killed by the sword or sent away as captives to all the nations of the world. And Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the period of the Gentiles comes to an end (otherwise Paul was just offering false and empty hope to the Thessalonians - and I don't believe that is so).
Paul is talking about a specific day in the future when those that don't know God and do not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ. Will see the return of Jesus Christ and face judgement with fire.
2 Thessalonians 1:8
Dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
This is the single day of judgement for humanity and the redemption of the saints.
The passage quoted in the OP cannot undergo any interpretation.
Revelation 18:8 mentions 70AD Jerusalem.

Josephus also mentions that day as happening during the Feast of the Passover.......

Isa 47:9
8 “Therefore hear this now, you who are given to pleasures, Who dwell securely,
Who say in your heart, ‘I am, and there is no one else besides me;
I shall not sit as a widow, Nor shall I know the loss of children’;
9 But these two things shall come to you In a moment, in one day:
The loss of children, and widowhood. They shall come upon you in their fullness
Because of the multitude of your sorceries, For the great abundance of your enchantments.

Revelation 18:
7 ‘As much as She glorifies Herself and indulges so much,be giving to Her torment<929> and sorrow<3997>.That in Her heart She is saying: 'I am sitting a Queen,
and a Widow not I am being,
and sorrow not no I shall seeing.'
=========================
Luke 19:43
That shall be arriving/hxousin <2240> (5692) days upon Thee
and the enemies of Thee shall be according casting a siege-work to Thee and shall be encompassing Thee and together-pressing/sunexousin <4912> (5692) Thee every which place.

Revelation 18:8 because of this in one day shall be arriving/hxousin <2240> (5692) the blows of Her, death and mourning and famine,
and in fire She shall be being burned-down that strong *Lord the God, the One-judging Her

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ;
and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah ! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.
=====================
 
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Ed Parenteau

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The first 6 verses are the foundation for 7-10 because it specifically promises relief to the Thessalonians for the tribulation they were going through as well as the rest of the church Paul Sylvanis and Timothy were representing. Proverbs 13:Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but desire fulfilled is a tree of life.
Would anyone accuse the Holy Spirit of deferring the hope given to the Thessalonians and the rest of the Church of that day?

1Paul and Silvanus and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The first 6 verses are the foundation for 7-10 because it specifically promises relief to the Thessalonians for the tribulation they were going through as well as the rest of the church Paul Sylvanis and Timothy were representing.

1Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2Grace to you and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; 4therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. 5This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
Grace and Peace..................

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)


NKJV:
1Th 1:1
Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.[fn]
2Th 1:2
Grace to you and peace from God
our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
==============
1Pe 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.
2Jo 1:3
Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
=====================
Revelation Chapter 1 Verses

Revelation 1:4 John, to the seven Assemblies those in the Asia:
Grace to ye and peace from [*God] the Who is and Who was and the One coming.
And from the seven Spirits, the in view of the throne of Him
 
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keras

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2 Thessalonians 1:4-10 We hold you [Christians] up as a good example of steadfast faith, because you have kept faithful despite difficulties and troubles. This will show the justice of God's judgement, when you prove worthy to partake in the Kingdom, for which you are currently suffering.

It is just that God should balance the account by sending affliction to those who afflict you and to give you relief when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire. They will suffer the penalty of eternal destruction cut off from any hope of salvation, when on that great Day, He comes to reveal His glory among His own and to all believers. Therefore to you, since you believe the testimony of the Gospel.

All born again Christians. This passage describes the Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath, The Sixth Sea,l a terrible judgement of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis upon His enemies and how, at that time, He saves and delivers His people. He is not seen by all the world at this first event, only by believers in Him. Many other prophecies parallel this; Isaiah 10:17-22, Isaiah 29:19-21, Isaiah 30:26, Jeremiah 30:4-8, Ezekiel 34:12, Amos 9:8-12

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 Now, about the coming of our Lord, Jesus Christ, when He is to gather the elect to Himself, do not be alarmed by anyone who says He is here already. Let no one deceive you: that Day cannot come before the final rebellion against God, when wickedness will be revealed in human form, the man doomed to destruction. He is the adversary who aspires to be worshipped in God's place and he even enthrones himself in the temple, claiming to be God. Daniel 8:10

Already the secret forces of wickedness are at work, but the restraining power of the Holy Spirit will ensure that he will be revealed only at the appointed time. Then, the Lord Jesus will destroy him by His Spirit and His radiant power.

Now - that is: several years after the previous events of judgement and deliverance, Jesus will Return, in glory, visible to all. He destroys the armies attacking Jerusalem and chains up Satan, then commences His Millennial reign. Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 20:1-6 At this time He gathers 'the elect' to Himself, Matthew 24:31, 1 Thess 4:15-17, they are the Jews and Gentiles who have kept pure and faithful to Him, during the Tribulation.



2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 The coming of this wicked person is the work of Satan, it will be accompanied by all the powerful signs and miracles that falsehood can devise and every sort of evil that deceives those who do not open their minds to the truth. They are doomed to perish, because they refuse to listen to the Gospel of the truth, so God has put them under a compelling delusion; which makes them believe what is false. So all will be judged and condemned who have rejected the truth, but have made sinfulness their choice. Ref: REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.



Here, in Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, he prophesies about two separate appearances of Jesus. First, His coming in: [sending of; Amos 1] 'blazing fire', when He will reveal Himself only to His righteous people. He destroys the nations and entities who 'conspire to attack Israel', in fulfilment of Psalm 83, Revelation 6:12-17 and many other prophecies. His righteous Christian people go to live in the holy Land. Then, at least 7 years after that devastating and shocking event, the Anti-Christ will come to power and 'enthrone himself in the Temple', this commences the Great Tribulation and 1260 days later, Jesus Returns to live once again on earth and reign as King over the world.
 
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BABerean2

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Revelation 18:8 mentions 70AD Jerusalem.

Your attempts to make the whole Bible about 70 AD, like all man-made doctrines, are revealed by the scripture you must ignore to make it work.

Rev 18:3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury."
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
Rev 18:6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.
Rev 18:7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, 'I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.'
Rev 18:8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.
Rev 18:9 "The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.'
Rev 18:11 "And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore:

The same is true of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, which is about the future Second Coming of Christ, instead of 70 AD.

Both passages are related to the judgment of the living, and the dead, in 2 Timothy 4:1, which is found in the Statement of Faith for this forum.


.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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We hold you [Christians] up as a good example of steadfast faith, because you have kept faithful despite difficulties and troubles. This will show the justice of God's judgement, when you prove worthy to partake in the Kingdom, for which you are currently suffering.

Perfect example of word replacement theology. The Thessalonians are the ones to whom Paul is writing, not Christians generically. Therefore, the 'you' that follows is always specifically referring to the Thessalonians. By taking away Thessalonians and replacing with Christians, makes the whole letter nonsensical. For instance: "2Thess 2: 5Do you(Christians) not remember that while I was still with you(Christians), I was telling you(Christians) these things? 6And you(Christians) know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed."
So, what things did he tell us Christians when he was with us about the man of lawlessness? And what did he say was restraining him?
 
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parousia70

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The passage as written above will not permit an interpretation but can only be read at face value. To apply an interpretation to that passage would require that other scripture is quoted.

The passage above certainly states that believer's will find relief from their suffering when Jesus returns.

Not believers in general, but the actual 1st century Thessalonian congregation.
That is the FACE VALUE rendering of the passage.
Any attempt to REMOVE them from direct application of the passage, as you appear to be doing, is you applying an interpretation to the text that the text itself does not teach.

It is beyond any question that Paul identifies a specific day in the future, that both saints and those that do not know God. Will both on that specific day will see Jesus revealed from heaven....

The Hope of Relief Paul is encouraging the Thessalonians to have is Key to understanding the timing...

Jesus came and cut off the Jewish persecution against the Thessalonian congregation. That's what they were expecting, and that is what they got -- scripture is very specific on it. It was a then-contemporary situation. Follow the scriptures on this...

The Thessalonicans were being persecuted by the Jews who were stirring up violence against them in their city (see Acts 17:1-14). Paul mentions this specifically at 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, saying that "God's wrath was to come upon them to the uttermost." Specifically, it was the coming of Jesus Christ to them that was to end that Jewish persecution against them. Paul writes:

"This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire" (2 Thessalonians 1:5-7)

Q. When would God give affliction to those that were persecuting the Thessalonican congregation and grant relief to the Thessalonians?

A. When the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.

Ask yourself:
Are the 1st century Thessalonians STILL suffering persecution at the Hands of the 1st century Jews?

If not, then the only option is that Christ’s coming happened and ended their persecution. There is no other scriptural option.

Paul is talking to the Thessalonians about their deliverance and judgement, Paul is not addressing anyone else....Any other opinion on this quoted passage is invalid.

I agree, but I find it interesting you say this, but then immediately elongate and elasticize the text to not only include others beyond the 1st century Thessalonians whom Paul was directly addressing, but in fact your stated interpretation EXCLUDES them from ANY application of the passage at all.

Such is untenable.
 
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BABerean2

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Not believers in general, but the actual 1st century Thessalonian congregation.
That is the FACE VALUE rendering of the passage.
Any attempt to REMOVE them from direct application of the passage, as you appear to be doing, is you applying an interpretation to the text that the text itself does not teach.



The Hope of Relief Paul is encouraging the Thessalonians to have is Key to understanding the timing...

Jesus came and cut off the Jewish persecution against the Thessalonian congregation. That's what they were expecting, and that is what they got -- scripture is very specific on it. It was a then-contemporary situation. Follow the scriptures on this...

The Thessalonicans were being persecuted by the Jews who were stirring up violence against them in their city (see Acts 17:1-14). Paul mentions this specifically at 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, saying that "God's wrath was to come upon them to the uttermost." Specifically, it was the coming of Jesus Christ to them that was to end that Jewish persecution against them. Paul writes:

"This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. For it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well WHEN the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire" (2 Thessalonians 1:5-7)

Q. When would God give affliction to those that were persecuting the Thessalonican congregation and grant relief to the Thessalonians?

A. When the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire.

Ask yourself:
Are the 1st century Thessalonians STILL suffering persecution at the Hands of the 1st century Jews?

If not, then the only option is that Christ’s coming happened and ended their persecution. There is no other scriptural option.



I agree, but I find it interesting you say this, but then immediately elongate and elasticize the text to not only include others beyond the 1st century Thessalonians whom Paul was directly addressing, but in fact your stated interpretation EXCLUDES them from ANY application of the passage at all.

Such is untenable.

How many Christians were in Jerusalem during the siege of 70 AD, to admire his coming in the passage below?

2Th 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other,
2Th 1:4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,
2Th 1:5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;
2Th 1:6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,
2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.
2Th 1:11 Therefore we also pray always for you that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of His goodness and the work of faith with power,
2Th 1:12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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continued.....................

Josephus writes about seeing horses and chariots in the sky over Jerusalem...........

Nah 3:2
The noise of a whip And the noise of rattling wheels,
Of galloping horses, Of clattering chariots!

Rev 9:9
And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.
Rev 18:13
“and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men.
========================

A Realized Eschatology Interpretation and Commentary of 2 Thessalonians 1:7: According to v. 7 and Revelation 19:11-14, Jesus was to lead an Angelic Army in the Clouds at the Second Coming. An Angelic Army was seen in the Clouds in A.D. 66, at the Start of the Jewish War.

Verses 6-8 declare that God’s vengeance will begin “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels (2 Thessalonians 1:7).” This prediction is elaborated upon in Revelation 19:11-14:

I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. . . . He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

Verse 7 and Revelation 19:11-14 are detailed descriptions of the first manifestation of Christ during the second coming in which Jesus is seen coming on the clouds of heaven. In Revelation 19:11-14, Jesus is seen riding a white horse at the head of an angelic army. These prophecies came to pass at the start of the Jewish revolt in A.D. 66:

[O]n the twenty-first day of the month of Artemisius [Jyar], a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sunsetting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.3

A Preterist Interpretation, Exposition and Commentary of 2 Thessalonians 1:7: The Jewish Historian Yosippon adds the Fact that this Angelic Army in the Sky of A.D. 66 was composed of Soldiers that Blazed with Fire LITERALLY fulfilling 2 Thessalonians 1:7: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from Heaven in Blazing Fire with His Powerful Angels.”

The Medieval Jewish Historian Sepher Yosippon also mentions this angelic army seen at the start of the Jewish revolt in A.D. 66: “Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire.’4 In the above two excerpts, the Jewish historians Josephus and Yosippon describe an army of angels in the clouds just like the army Jesus led in Revelation 19:11-14 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7. In these two historical excerpts one can see how 2 Thessalonians 1:7 was explicitly fulfilled in A.D. 66 when “the Lord Jesus [was LITERALLY] revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.”


Yosippon adds the fact that this angelic army in the sky of A.D. 66 was composed of cavalry that blazed with fire LITERALLY fulfilling 2 Thessalonians 1:7: “This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels.”
====================================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see:
Rapture refuted

Our Lord adds "pestilences" likewise. Pestilence treads upon the heels of famine, it may therefore reasonably be presumed, that this terrible scourge accompanied the famines which have just been enumerated. History, however, particularly distinguishes two instances of this calamity, which occurred before the commencement of the Jewish war. The first took place at Babylon about A. D. 40, and raged so alarmingly, that great multitudes of Jews fled from that city to Seleucia for safety, as hath been hinted already. The other happened at Rome A.D. 65, and carried off prodigious multitudes. Both Tacitus and Suetonius also record, that similar calamities prevailed, during this period, in various parts of the Roman empire. After Jerusalem was surrounded by the army of Titus, pestilential diseases soon made their appearance there to aggravate the miseries, and deepen the horrors of the siege. They were partly occasioned by the immense multitudes which were crowded together in the city, partly by the putrid effluvia which arose from the unburied dead, and partly from spread of famine.

[6] - Josephus has collected the chief of these portents together, and introduces his account by a reflection on the strangeness of that infatuation, which could induce his countrymen to give credit to impostors, and unfounded reports, whilst they disregarded the divine admonitions, confirmed, as he asserts they Were, by the following extraordinary signs :

5. "Soon after the feast of the Passover, in various parts of the country, before the Setting of the sun, chariots and armed men were seen in the air, passing round about Jerusalem. " Neither could this portentous spectacle be occasioned by the aurora borealis, for it occurred before the setting of the sun ; or merely the fancy of a few villagers, gazing at the heavens, for it was seen in various parts of the country.
==============================


The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah ! At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.

Nevertheless, the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly ; thus, not only fulfilling the predictions of our LORD, that these calamities should come, like the swift-darting lightning" that cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the West," and " as a snare on all of them (the Jews) who dwelt upon the face of the whole earth " (Matt. xxiv. 27, and Luke xxi 35,) but justifying, also, his friendly direction, that those who fled from the place should use the utmost possible expedition.
===============================================
Matthew 24:3
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and consummation<4930> of the Age?


Matthew 24 Mount of Olives and Titus' 10th Legion on Mt Olives 70ad

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

APRIL, A.D. 70 - PHASE ONE

THE ROMAN ARMY ARRIVES AT JERUSALEM TO PREPARE THE SIEGE

The first night of Titus' encampment with the 15th, 3rd and 18th Legions, the 5th Legion arrived from Emmaus and set camp north of the city on Mount Scopus. Later the next day, the famed 10th Legion (founded by Julius Caesar) marched in from Jericho and camped on the Mount of Olives, east of the city. Instead of waiting to starve the Jews into submission, Titus decides to assault many different parts of the city and overwhelm the defenders. Titus was early on in the middle of the fighting with his soldiers. At least two times, Titus and his detachment are surrounded by defenders, only to escape unharmed.

The first obstacle was the Third Wall, just to the north of the Jaffa Gate. The ground leading up to it was felled to provide clear fields of fire and to provide timber for siege equipment. Two of the Jewish factions fighting within the city agree to work together against the Romans, but a third continued to fight the other factions. Massive quantities of corn were destroyed in bitter factional fighting.



map_legions_ad70.jpg
 
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BABerean2

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Josephus writes about seeing horses and chariots in the sky over Jerusalem...........


Since Josephus was not a follower of Christ, he cannot be one of the witnesses found in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

We also know the Christians had left the city before 70 AD.

.
 
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mkgal1

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2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe,
This "coming" is not Jesus in the flesh. The language used means "judgement". This passage doesn't state His believers "admired" Him from any specific location.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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continuing......................
=====================================
2 Thessalonians 1:7 Commentary:
According to Acts 9:3-6 and Revelation 1:13-16, Jesus’ Resurrection Body was Further Glorified after His Ascension into Heaven such that it Beamed with Radiance like Blazing Fire. Thus Jesus’ Body took on a Form similar to that of the Angels of Heaven (2 Corinthians 11:14 and Matthew 28:2-3).


Why does 2 Thessalonians 1:7 imply that Jesus was to take on a form like that of blazing fire during His second coming? The Bible implies the fact that after Jesus ascended into heaven, His body was further glorified so as to take on the bright, fiery likeness of the Father (Ezekiel 1:26-28) and the angels of heaven (Matthew 28:2-3, 2 Corinthians 11:14) as shown in Acts 9:3-6 and Revelation 1:13-16. See How the Resurrection Bodies of the Saints Perfectly Mirror Jesus’ Resurrection Body after His Ascension Into Heaven Fulfilling Philippians 3:20-21 and ALL Other Bible Verses on the Resurrection!!!.


Daniel 10:5 I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold! a Man clothed in linen, with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude. [Revelation 1]
YLT) Revelation 1:12 And I did turn to see the voice that did speak with me, and having turned, I saw seven golden lamp-stands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lamp-stands, [one] like to a son of man, clothed to the foot, and girt round at the breast with a golden girdle, 14 and his head and hairs white, as if white wool — as snow, and his eyes as a flame of fire; 15 and his feet like to fine brass, as in a furnace having been fired, and his voice as a sound of many waters, 16 and having in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword is proceeding, and his countenance [is] as the sun shining in its might. 17 And when I saw him, I did fall at his feet as dead, and he placed his right hand upon me, saying to me, ‘Be not afraid; I am the First and the Last, 18 and he who is living, and I did become dead, and, lo, I am living to the ages of the ages. Amen! and I have the keys of the hades and of the death
Angels are sometimes also described as beings of light according to Matthew 28:2-3.


Heb 1:7 And of the angels He says:“Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”
After his ascension into heaven, Jesus’ resurrection body was further glorified according to Revelation 1:13-16 such that it resembled the image of the Father and the heavenly host—shinning like blazing fire.

A Covenant Eschatology Exposition and Commentary of 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7: This Fiery Army in the Sky also fits the Timing Implied in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7.
As stated above, vs. 6-8 declare that God’s vengeance will begin “when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels (2 Thessalonians 1:7).” This angelic army in the sky was seen in Iyyar of A.D. 66–the same month and year in which the Jewish revolt began. During the Jewish War and the death of the lawless one, I believe Jesus made several miraculous appearances including the one mentioned above. These various appearances of Christ during and shortly after the Jewish War appear to illustrate all the diverse ways God appeared to people in the Old and New Testaments. They also seem to literally fulfill every detail of every prophecy concerning the parousia or second coming. See Historical Evidence that Jesus was LITERALLY SEEN in the Clouds in the First Century.
 
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parousia70

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How many Christians were in Jerusalem during the siege of 70 AD, to admire his coming in the passage below?

None, as they all heeded their Master's Warning to Flee upon witnessing the AoD.

However, the judgment associated with Christ's 1st century Parousia was not merely restricted to the land of Israel or Jerusalem as you seem to imply (although that was the center). Disasters were going on all over the empire as God's wrath was being poured out. While we could turn to a slew of historical resources to show the famines, city-sized destructions from earthquakes, and empire-wide wars that were breaking out by God's design, we need only to look in our bibles to see how the churches around the empire were being affected at that time:

--THE END-OF-THE-AGE TRIBULATION--

* world-wide famine (Acts 11:27-29)

* plagues (1 Cor 11:29-31)

* world-wide suffering of the church (1 Pet 4:7,12-13; 5:9; 2 Thess 1:4-6)

* judgment upon the empire's kings/rulers (Acts 12:1-4/19-24; 23:1-3; 24:24-25)

* the apostasy (book of Jude; 2 Tim 1:15; 2 Tim 4:16)

--THE RELIEF PROVIDED BY CHRIST'S PAROUSIA--

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thessalonica
promise: 2 Thess 1:6-7
result: their persecutors would be cut off, ending their persecution

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Thyatira
promise: Rev 2:18-25
result: their false prophetess and all her followers would be killed off by
Christ's coming. The Church was granted Christ's authority.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Pergamum
promise: Rev 2:12-16
result: the heretical Nicolaitans were to put down by Christ's coming to
Pergamum. The Nicolaitans that were causing them to break the decree of the Council of Jerusalem were killed (Rev 2:14; cf. Acts 15:28-29).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Sardis
promise: Rev 3:1-5
result: Christ promises them that his "thief-in-the-night" coming will come
upon them. They had not been faithfully expecting "the thief" as explained to them in Matt 24:43/1 Thess5:2-5. However, a few in Sardis were found worthy and had not soiled their garments. At Christ's coming to them "they walked in white, for they were worthy" (Rev 3:4-5).

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Philadelphia
promise: Rev 3:7-13
result: Christ puts down the then-contemporary Jewish persecution (3:9).
He preserves the Church at Philadelphia through the testing which was then about to come upon the whole empire (3:10). God makes his faithful ones "pillars" in the Temple of God.

* Christ's Coming to First-Century Laodicea
promise: Rev 3:14-21
result: Christ is shown to be knocking at their door as first promised in Matt 24:33 (cf. also James 5:9). If they didn't repent it appears they were annihilated. Repentant and obedient followers said to become partakers of Christ's heavenly authority.

I could add many other things, but this will do for now. It is clear that the scriptures contain the historic record of the tribulation period, and they explain the relief that Christ's Parousia brought to the churches around the empire, precisely as they were promised. Christ did not fail them.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Josephus writes about seeing horses and chariots in the sky over Jerusalem...........
Since Josephus was not a follower of Christ, he cannot be one of the witnesses found in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
We also know the Christians had left the city before 70 AD.
.
You can post about him on some of the threads I created on him...........

JOSEPHUS, OLIVET DISCOURSE AND BOOK OF REVELATION
Was Josephus a reliable witness to Jerusalem 70ad?
  1. *
    Yes, it appears he was
    15 vote(s)
    93.8%
  2. I don't think he was
    1 vote(s)
    6.3%
  3. I have not read anything by him
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Who was Josephus?
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. I don't know
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Other
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. *
    Josephus was correct concerning the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse
    2 vote(s)
    12.5%
  8. Josephus viewed Revelation as mostly fulfilled
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
=============================================
Josephus and Luke 21:11 "fearful signs in heaven/sky" 1st century pre 70AD

Has anyone read of the supernatural happenings that were occurring around Jerusalem/Judea prior to the Roman siege of 70AD?
Do others view these events as factual, fiction, hallucinations etc...............

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:7-8 , nation, kingdom against nation, kingdom; quaking, famines
 
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